JohnZ
Active Member
Each cat is different... my Derek also goes lower later in the cycle... I think most hit their low point at mid-cycle...
From Hypo To Serial Poker, Figuring Bear Out
- Thread starter EllieRuthanne
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EllieRuthanne
Member
I'd be happy to do a +1 to see the difference if you'd like.
Thank you for letting me know.
EllieRuthanne
Member
I'm sorry, but you lost me at 'no space showing'. No space showing between the measurement line and the black part of the plunger (like the lower part of the black part)?
JohnZ
Active Member
Yes... that's correct...
EllieRuthanne
Member
Okay. Thank you.
EllieRuthanne
Member
I'm by no means experienced, but Bear's PMPS was 206 at 7:00 PM. He ate at that time, which takes him about 30 minutes, then I gave him his shot at 8:00 PM. His +1 this time was 229.
babyBoo
Member
If that were similar to a lantus +2 guideline it would suggest a typical normal cycle that might drop by 50 points around nadir(usually 5-7 for lantus).
I'm not sure if your +1 an hour after shot with a 30 minute waiting period after eating would translate to similar to a lantus user's guideline or not.
If it does suggest a normal novalin cycle. Again I am not sure what that is when your shooting a preshot of 200. My blind and uneducated guess would be a drop to around 100 at about +4 to +6 maybe. I have no idea really. Would be interesting to hear novalin users discussion about this.
I'm not sure if your +1 an hour after shot with a 30 minute waiting period after eating would translate to similar to a lantus user's guideline or not.
If it does suggest a normal novalin cycle. Again I am not sure what that is when your shooting a preshot of 200. My blind and uneducated guess would be a drop to around 100 at about +4 to +6 maybe. I have no idea really. Would be interesting to hear novalin users discussion about this.
Myrtlesmum
Active Member
From my very limited testing, it looks like Myrtle hits nadir at +5. The only time I recorded that she was around 200 at preshot I gave her 0.75 and at +5 she was 83. Although looking back another time preshot she was 220, hit 85 by +3 and then surfed for a couple of hours on that 85 - so maybe nadir is + 3 or sooner - sorry not much help....
Squalliesmom
Very Active Member
Love, love, LOVE your new avatar, he's so handsome, looks very regal! Took a peek at his spreadsheet, he's looking good; keep up the good work! 
Yong & Maury GA
Very Active Member
Bear has had some very nice cycles 
EllieRuthanne
Member
Thanks guys. I'm on the fence because his AMPS is 163 today. We've been doing 1 unit, even yesterday evening when he was 188 at PMPS, but it's a bit lower this time. Stick to 1 unit and test?
I'm on the fence because his AMPS is 163 today. We've been doing 1 unit, even yesterday evening when he was 188 at PMPS, but it's a bit lower this time. Stick to 1 unit and test?
Yong & Maury GA
Very Active Member
Have you fed yet?
EllieRuthanne
Member
I tested then fed, both at 8:30, and I normally shoot at 9:00 AM.
JohnZ
Active Member
Maybe do something like 3/4 unit...
Yong & Maury GA
Very Active Member
Looks like she gave 1.0U. Will you be monitoring as usual Ellie? I would try stalling next time, so if he gave you PS of 163, wait 20 minutes without feeding. If test after 20 minutes is a rising number, that can help you decide too
EllieRuthanne
Member
I've tried practicing with 0.5 units with water, as suggested, and it's extremely hard to keep it consistent on his tiny syringe. 3/4 would be impossible.
I did forget to mention his breakfast was 30 minutes late because I'm trying to slowly walk him back to his normal time.
I went ahead with 1 unit because I'm going to be home all day today with him and will, once again, being serial poking him.
EllieRuthanne
Member
Looks like she gave 1.0U. Will you be monitoring as usual Ellie? I would try stalling next time, so if he gave you PS of 163, wait 20 minutes without feeding. If test after 20 minutes is a rising number, that can help you decide too
Yes, I will absolutely be monitoring him all day. My issue is, his drop isn't consistent.
JohnZ
Active Member
He's in good hands!
If you can... look into the half unit syringes... I use the Monojest's from ADW... https://www.adwdiabetes.com/product/2552/monoject-ultra-comfort-insulin-syringes
If you can... look into the half unit syringes... I use the Monojest's from ADW... https://www.adwdiabetes.com/product/2552/monoject-ultra-comfort-insulin-syringes
Yong & Maury GA
Very Active Member
If you want to give his ears a little break, you can do mini curve tests at +3, +6, +9. Where he's at on first test will help determine how much testing you have to do
EllieRuthanne
Member
He's in good hands!
If you can... look into the half unit syringes... I use the Monojest's from ADW... https://www.adwdiabetes.com/product/2552/monoject-ultra-comfort-insulin-syringes
Thank you.
And those are interesting... and MUCH better in price. We've been using the BD Insulin Syringe with the BD Ultra-Fine™ 6mm Needle. They're expensive and the scale is very tiny and that's without the 0.5 marking (which I just learned they made. Right now he's on the very first line.
If you want to give his ears a little break, you can do mini curve tests at +3, +6, +9. Where he's at on first test will help determine how much testing you have to do
Oh! I'd never heard of that, before. I'll definitely keep that in mind. Thank you.
EllieRuthanne
Member
Also, we just bought this box of syringes and can't afford a new one right now, so I'll have to learn to adjust until we can get ones with 1/2 markins.
Squalliesmom
Very Active Member
Walmart has Relion syringes with 1/2 unit markings and they're reasonably inexpensive.
My Walmart is still stuck in the last century so these are the only ones they carry with 1/2 unit markings; your Walmart may have them with the short needles and maybe a different gauge (larger gauge=finer needle).
My Walmart is still stuck in the last century so these are the only ones they carry with 1/2 unit markings; your Walmart may have them with the short needles and maybe a different gauge (larger gauge=finer needle).
EllieRuthanne
Member
My Wal-Mart pharmacy doesn't know what they're talking about most of the time. When I went to get his syringes refilled, I took his old box up (because I used to get a script sent to our other pharmacy) and asked for those or their equivalent in a different, cheaper brand. The girl brought out those, then it turned into a small discussion/debate between her and the two pharmacists of if they were the same or close enough. As long as it's a small and a short needle, it's all good, right? A unit is a unit, no matter what, right?
EllieRuthanne
Member
I used the Walmart ones for awhile... and found the markings to be wildly inconsistent
That's scarey.
babyBoo
Member
There are syringes that are marked for u40 and those for u100 insulins. You want to make sure your using the correct one for your insulin. I am not sure what that is for you but for me that is a u100 syringe. So you definitely need to know whether your insulin needs u40 or u100 syringes.
Yong & Maury GA
Very Active Member
I think that comment was what her pharmacist / techs trying to rationalize answering her question lol
Squalliesmom
Very Active Member
My Walmart is like that, too. I have to be very specific about what I want, or bring in a label or box-top, because they have no clue. I have used the Monojects, I really like the fact that they glide well with no "sticking" but I have a terrible time trying to get all the air bubbles out of them - there is a small chamber between the body of the syringe and the base of the needle that always gets a bubble that I cannot get out. I have wasted A LOT of Lantus fighting with it!
Any pharmacist should know what you are talking about if you tell them you need U100, 3/10 ml insulin syringes with half-unit markings. They come in 2 different needle lengths (I personally like the shorter needle) and different gauges (I prefer 31 but my Walmart only carries 29).
@babyBoo You're absolutely correct, it is very important to know whether you need U40 or U100 syringes! She is using Novolin so she would use U100s.
Any pharmacist should know what you are talking about if you tell them you need U100, 3/10 ml insulin syringes with half-unit markings. They come in 2 different needle lengths (I personally like the shorter needle) and different gauges (I prefer 31 but my Walmart only carries 29).
@babyBoo You're absolutely correct, it is very important to know whether you need U40 or U100 syringes! She is using Novolin so she would use U100s.
EllieRuthanne
Member
I think that comment was what her pharmacist / techs trying to rationalize answering her question lol
Yup. It was very frustrating.
My Walmart is like that, too. I have to be very specific about what I want, or bring in a label or box-top, because they have no clue. I have used the Monojects, I really like the fact that they glide well with no "sticking" but I have a terrible time trying to get all the air bubbles out of them - there is a small chamber between the body of the syringe and the base of the needle that always gets a bubble that I cannot get out. I have wasted A LOT of Lantus fighting with it!
Any pharmacist should know what you are talking about if you tell them you need U100, 3/10 ml insulin syringes with half-unit markings. They come in 2 different needle lengths (I personally like the shorter needle) and different gauges (I prefer 31 but my Walmart only carries 29).
@babyBoo You're absolutely correct, it is very important to know whether you need U40 or U100 syringes! She is using Novolin so she would use U100s.
Thank you for the info!
The BD are okay, aside from no 1/2 markings, but they don't glide well when I'm measuring, causing some insulin to squirt out quickly. Is that normal?
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Squalliesmom
Very Active Member
Some brands seem to be "stickier" than others. I have the same problem with the Relion syringes.Yup. It was very frustrating.
Thank you for the info!
The BD are okay, aside from no 1/2 markings, but they don't glide well when I'm measuring, causing some insulin to squirt out quickly. Is that normal?
Squalliesmom
Very Active Member
If you kind of twist the plunger gently back and forth while you're trying to make your adjustments it sometimes helps with that stickiness.
EllieRuthanne
Member
EllieRuthanne
Member
Hey guys. So I was wondering what others' thoughts were on Bear's spreadsheet.
I've been having to lower his insulin bit by bit and his numbers seem to be getting lower each time, even with less insulin.
Today he was primarily in green. I actually thought the meter was messed up and tested double, sometimes triple, the amount to make sure.
Is it normal for a cat to wean off of insulin? Should I be worried or looking out for something specific?
I've been having to lower his insulin bit by bit and his numbers seem to be getting lower each time, even with less insulin.
Today he was primarily in green. I actually thought the meter was messed up and tested double, sometimes triple, the amount to make sure.
Is it normal for a cat to wean off of insulin? Should I be worried or looking out for something specific?
Nan & Amber (GA)
Very Active Member
Wow, Bear is looking amazing!!!!
Good news: getting down into the "green" numbers is going to help give his pancreas a chance to rest and (maybe) do some healing, so today was a great day for that!
Bad news: Because Novalin N is a fast-acting insulin, it can be really tricky to manage when you start getting into numbers this low. I'm not a Novalin N person so I can't be all that much help, but depending on pre-shot tonight (he may bounce, of course) I would be ready to back off the dose even more, to 0.25U or lower, in order to make sure you have more of a safety margin. The last thing you want is another hypo...
Lantus is much easier to manage at these kinds of numbers-- they have a saying on the Lantus forum "shoot low to stay low", meaning that shooting low numbers often produces gentle, flat curves keeping the cat in pancreas-healing numbers almost all day. Are you still thinking of switching over?
Good news: getting down into the "green" numbers is going to help give his pancreas a chance to rest and (maybe) do some healing, so today was a great day for that!
Bad news: Because Novalin N is a fast-acting insulin, it can be really tricky to manage when you start getting into numbers this low. I'm not a Novalin N person so I can't be all that much help, but depending on pre-shot tonight (he may bounce, of course) I would be ready to back off the dose even more, to 0.25U or lower, in order to make sure you have more of a safety margin. The last thing you want is another hypo...
Lantus is much easier to manage at these kinds of numbers-- they have a saying on the Lantus forum "shoot low to stay low", meaning that shooting low numbers often produces gentle, flat curves keeping the cat in pancreas-healing numbers almost all day. Are you still thinking of switching over?
EllieRuthanne
Member
Yeah, I'm scared of another hypo so I've been keeping a close eye on him and his numbers. I've also been lowering his dose as needed.
Depending on how he is PMPS, I was going to cut back to 0.25 (as close as I can get with the needles) and check him at +5 or +6 since that seems to be his lowest point.
And yes, we were still wanting to switch, but, sadly, we have to wait until we financially can.
Nan & Amber (GA)
Very Active Member
The way Bear is hustling down the dosing ladder, I'm honestly not even sure he's going to be on insulin long enough to make a switch to Lantus! Wish I could be more help in using Novalin N at this stage. On Lantus, we try to keep the cat on tiny doses of insulin as long as possible, in order to give the pancreas support, because that seems to lead to stronger remissions. With the "harsher" insulins, though, once the cat starts spending a lot of time in the green numbers I think safety concerns come in that make it more difficult to do that.
I am soooooo glad you are testing now!
I am soooooo glad you are testing now!
EllieRuthanne
Member
Me too. I'm upset with myself that we didn't do it sooner. He has been acting much better, peeing less, and drinking less. He did just spike to 132 at +10, but it's still lower than his AM numbers yesterday and his PM numbers last night.
Nan & Amber (GA)
Very Active Member
You are doing a fantastic job with him! It's so great when you can see the results in their behavior-- he must be feeling better too!
I can't stick around any more tonight, but I'm going to tag @JanetNJ in case she comes on tonight so she knows to check this thread and see how you're doing [side note: this thread has gotten pretty long, it'd be a good idea to start a new one soon]. She had a cat go into remission while using Vetsulin, another fast-acting insulin, so she may have some tips.
Good luck tonight-- be safe, and give Bear a skritch for being such a good boy!
I can't stick around any more tonight, but I'm going to tag @JanetNJ in case she comes on tonight so she knows to check this thread and see how you're doing [side note: this thread has gotten pretty long, it'd be a good idea to start a new one soon]. She had a cat go into remission while using Vetsulin, another fast-acting insulin, so she may have some tips.
Good luck tonight-- be safe, and give Bear a skritch for being such a good boy!
EllieRuthanne
Member
Thank you. And I almost did start a new thread, but wasn't sure of the protocol.
Thank you. His PMPS was 138, just 4 points higher than his AMPS of 134, so I'm trying to decide to stick with 0.5 and check him in +5 or +6 hours or not.
I don't mind waking up to check him and, if I go by today and before, he should stick to a similar dip.
JanetNJ
Very Active Member
If you can test and steer then go for it.
EllieRuthanne
Member
My husband and I are hoping you're right on that, but I'm just happy he's looking and feeling better.
His PMPS was 138, so I'm still trying to decide to do .05 and check close to his lowest point, or go a bit lower.
I would hate to go lower and cause him to spike again, but in the same breath I don't want him going to low and going hypo again.
I am willing to set my alarms and wake up to test him, just to be safe, so I'm leaning more towards the 0.5 or just under based on his curve today.
I've tried practicing doing "skinny" shots with water and they're really difficult for me to do. I'm just not that talented. Lol.
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