1/7 Ozzy AMPS 284, +3.5 118, +4.5 72, +5.10 58, +5.25 53, +6 71, +6.45 77, +8 100, +10 218, PMPS 312

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Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
I am going back to bed. I haven't slept in once since Ozzy was diagnosed. It is cold, gloomy, and raining and my snuggly bed is calling me back.
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Oh no. You said that out loud (or typed it on your screen.)

Cats read their condos (threads.) That was like throwing down the gauntlet and challenging Ozzy to need your attention all day, lol!

Great job handling things today. What a perfect long stretch of green for Ozzy! That is exactly the kind of cycle you want to have for Ozzy's body to be able to heal, if it's possible. Hours spent in normal numbers are hours when he can potentially heal. I'd also stick with the 1.25u for now.
 
julie & punkin (ga) said:
Oh no. You said that out loud (or typed it on your screen.)

Cats read their condos (threads.) That was like throwing down the gauntlet and challenging Ozzy to need your attention all day, lol!
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Haha! No kidding right!!?
julie & punkin (ga) said:
Great job handling things today. What a perfect long stretch of green for Ozzy! That is exactly the kind of cycle you want to have for Ozzy's body to be able to heal, if it's possible. Hours spent in normal numbers are hours when he can potentially heal. I'd also stick with the 1.25u for now.
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Thanks! I'm so happy about his green-blue day. I really am. I'm going to try not to let the 53 or the HC intervene take away from the success of his cycle today. But I'll definitely be on the look out for the next 3 cycles before I go back to work Monday morning!
 
Looking really good!
Look at that HC intervene as a REALLY valuable experience rather than one to beat yourself up for:bighug:
in doing that today, you now have some really valuable information in your tool kit for the next time he drops. :bookworm:

If you think about it, By doing this you learned what the food can do, and got a lesson in how it works for Ozzy:cat: ( not to mention you got to see how you can indeed slow dropping numbers and so it will not be quite so frightening next time;)) no harm, no foul!:bighug::bighug:

This is super valuable info you gained and will certainly be useful in future cycles:):bighug:
Nicely steered!

In giving the LC, MC, or HC the analogy that helped me was to think of giving the good as applying the brakes, you want to apply them gradually when speeding rather than slamming them on, which can launch a bounce!:bookworm:
Beautiful numbers today! Nicely handled!:bighug::bighug:
 
Gussie's mom said:
Looking really good!
Look at that HC intervene as a REALLY valuable experience rather than one to beat yourself up for:bighug:
in doing that today, you now have some really valuable information in your tool kit for the next time he drops. :bookworm:

If you think about it, By doing this you learned what the food can do, and got a lesson in how it works for Ozzy:cat: ( not to mention you got to see how you can indeed slow dropping numbers and so it will not be quite so frightening next time;)) no harm, no foul!:bighug::bighug:

This is super valuable info you gained and will certainly be useful in future cycles:):bighug:
Nicely steered!

In giving the LC, MC, or HC the analogy that helped me was to think of giving the good as applying the brakes, you want to apply them gradually when speeding rather than slamming them on, which can launch a bounce!:bookworm:
Beautiful numbers today! Nicely handled!:bighug::bighug:
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Ya!! Thank you so much!:bighug::smuggrin:
 
I'll just add that there was nothing wrong with what you did today. It's always better to overcarb a cat than undercarb. Look at this all as a science experiment. By giving him a little bit of high carb, you kept him in safe numbers and he "surfed" along in green for several hours.

Next time you can try a lighter hand. Ultimately you'll want to help him stay green for as long as possible.

By the time you're very experienced you'll be the queen of steering his little boat along.:D
 
PMPS 312..bummer. But not to not be expected.
He's acted a little weird at feeding time last few meals. Like he doesn't want to eat but then eventually he will. He kind of just sits there and stares and I have to convince him a little. Not sure if he doesn't like the raw food on his plate (I've been putting it on the side a little now -Figgie loves it and will eat it straight), or if there is too much of a mix up with all the different foods we are giving them, or just there is so much commotion over the feeding process now with all new foods, feeders, new plates, multiple feedings, etc. Maybe he was even full, he just at a couple hours ago.
 
Gave him 1.25U again. He only took a few bites of his food. He ate really good two hours ago so maybe he's full. He'll be back for more, I'm sure of it.

Onto the next cycle...let's see what tonight brings... (anti-jinx!)
 
I think he's bounced from being in the 50's today. If he were mine, I'd take the rest of the night off. Let both of you get a break.

At the most get one test right before you crawl in bed.
 
Well . . . . there are never any guarantees, but here are the factors I'm considering.

~When cats first start getting into green numbers after having become used to higher numbers, the bounces typically last about 3 days.

~His pattern has been to have higher numbers in the pm cycle.

~We don't know if he's spent other days in green this past week. If you covered up today's green, the amps and pmps look similar enough to the 3 days prior.

If you get a test right before bed and it's still over 300, I'd just call this a bounce and see what happens tomorrow. If he clears the bounce tomorrow, that would suggest to me that he's spent more time in green than we have seen. But if he bounces the full 3 days, so being overall high until Tuesday-ish, then that would be pretty normal for a cat that hasn't spent much time in green numbers.

So no, while I don't have a crystal ball, I would be very surprised if he got back to 50's tonight. I think that's a very slim chance - but . . . it's not like I can guarantee it.

If you're worried, set an alarm and get up and test him. It also never hurts to leave food available for a cat. You can also feed him right before you go to bed.
 
Great job today, Jo! I'm going to jump on the bandwagon that you did nothing wrong. I'd be a wealthy woman if I had a dollar for every time I overcarbbed Gracie! It happens.

Sometimes, they give us a clue when they are going to clear a bounce. They might bounce, come down a tiny bit and wobble, and then go way up. That latter action is often what we call then"high before the break" and if you see that kind of pattern, be prepared that he "might" clear the bounce. He did not have a high before the break today.....he was fairly flat.

I do want to toss out some info about feeding just for future info.

There will be times when you will definitely want to use a HC food at, say 50, and other times that you'll want to use LC but ECID. Generally, if you see a lower number like 50 really early in the cycle after a big drop, you definitely want to use either HC food or LC food with Karo depending on how carve sensitive he is. As an example, I could never use more than 12% carb food with Gracie or I'd totally ruin her duration. But I could use 12% with a bit of Karo if she was in the 30s/40s.

If he starts out lower, say 65 and is 58 at +2, you might be able to just get away with LC. The goal is to teach his pancreas to "surf" normal numbers on LC, if possible and if he's above 50 and safe.

If he's past nadir and is in 50s/60s and didn't drop suddenly from an hour before, LC might work. Conversely, if he drops a lot by +2 (e.g. +100 mg/dL), you might want to slow him down a bit so he flattens out, even if it is a bit higher because big drops can cause a bounce even if the kitty doesn't even get into blue numbers.

Insofar as how often to test, if he's in the 30s, you absolutely want to give HC/Karo and check in 15 minutes because the Karo will start to kick in that fast. If he's in the 40s and dropping fast, I'd also give Karo and retest in 15 mins. But if he's 40s and 50s and flat, I'd give him 30 mins to retest.

One, because if you poke him 15 mins for hours when he doesn't really need it, you are going to wear his ears out. Two, as long as he's in the 40s/50s and he's slowed down or stopped, giving just a little more time keeps you from overcarbbing him (which is not the end of the world). However, the bottom line is to keep him safe and if you feel worried that he needs to be retested in 15 rather than 30 mins and he gets overcarbbed, so what....he will get through any BIPO or bounce.

Managing low numbers with food takes experiementation and just when you have it figured out, it changes.
 
Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
You don't think he could go back down into the 50s again tonight?
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As Julie said, for a cat new to greens, once the bounce starts, it is unlikely he will come right back down. However, if numbers go from green or blue to yellow or pink within an hour or so, it's likely duration being cut short and they might come back down.

I think he's experiencing a bit of both. I'd also be surprised if he comes back down tonight but as Julie said, if you grab a before bed (and it's past +2) and he's flat or up, he's not likely to come back down too far.
 
Marje and Gracie said:
Great job today, Jo! I'm going to jump on the bandwagon that you did nothing wrong. I'd be a wealthy woman if I had a dollar for every time I overcarbbed Gracie! It happens.

Sometimes, they give us a clue when they are going to clear a bounce. They might bounce, come down a tiny bit and wobble, and then go way up. That latter action is often what we call then"high before the break" and if you see that kind of pattern, be prepared that he "might" clear the bounce. He did not have a high before the break today.....he was fairly flat.

I do want to toss out some info about feeding just for future info.

There will be times when you will definitely want to use a HC food at, say 50, and other times that you'll want to use LC but ECID. Generally, if you see a lower number like 50 really early in the cycle after a big drop, you definitely want to use either HC food or LC food with Karo depending on how carve sensitive he is. As an example, I could never use more than 12% carb food with Gracie or I'd totally ruin her duration. But I could use 12% with a bit of Karo if she was in the 30s/40s.

If he starts out lower, say 65 and is 58 at +2, you might be able to just get away with LC. The goal is to teach his pancreas to "surf" normal numbers on LC, if possible and if he's above 50 and safe.

If he's past nadir and is in 50s/60s and didn't drop suddenly from an hour before, LC might work. Conversely, if he drops a lot by +2 (e.g. +100 mg/dL), you might want to slow him down a bit so he flattens out, even if it is a bit higher because big drops can cause a bounce even if the kitty doesn't even get into blue numbers.

Insofar as how often to test, if he's in the 30s, you absolutely want to give HC/Karo and check in 15 minutes because the Karo will start to kick in that fast. If he's in the 40s and dropping fast, I'd also give Karo and retest in 15 mins. But if he's 40s and 50s and flat, I'd give him 30 mins to retest.

One, because if you poke him 15 mins for hours when he doesn't really need it, you are going to wear his ears out. Two, as long as he's in the 40s/50s and he's slowed down or stopped, giving just a little more time keeps you from overcarbbing him (which is not the end of the world). However, the bottom line is to keep him safe and if you feel worried that he needs to be retested in 15 rather than 30 mins and he gets overcarbbed, so what....he will get through any BIPO or bounce.

Managing low numbers with food takes experiementation and just when you have it figured out, it changes.
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Thank you so much for this detailed response, Marje. Going to save this page...will definitely need it later and maybe often!:bighug::bighug:
 
How long till he clears the bounce and what should we expect next?
I know some say it could take a few cycles/days for him to clear the bounce. So during that 'time' should we expect him to run high? And then after he clears the bounce, then what? We can expect more blue/green numbers again?
 
Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
How long till he clears the bounce and what should we expect next?
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nobody has an answer to exactly "how long".....but those people that read spreadsheets will be able to tell you when we think he's done bouncing....Hopefully his bounces will be short and we'll see him start to come down sooner rather than later, but it's really up to Taffy at this point....usually it'll happen within the next 6 cycles

They don't always bounce straight up and then come straight down either....sometimes they wobble....his numbers may start to go down and then go back up

What we hope for is that once we know the bounce is over, that he'll return to those pretty greens...and that the more time he spends in those healing numbers, the more his body will learn that it's OK to be there and re-learn that it's not necessary to bounce at all
 
Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
Gave him 1.25U again. He only took a few bites of his food. He ate really good two hours ago so maybe he's full. He'll be back for more, I'm sure of it.

Onto the next cycle...let's see what tonight brings... (anti-jinx!)
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I don't know if you are routinely feeding a good meal in the latter half of the cycle, it sounds like you fed him at around +10 according to ss

Most of us with cats on insulin will not routinely feed after +6, feeding late in the cycle when there is lesss insulin around can cause the numbers to jump up for PS.
There will be occasions when the numbers will dictate that you must feed late on, but under normal circumstances it's preferable not to.
For some cats who suffer with acid tummy CG will feed regular snacks in the latter part of the cycle to prevent them getting sick, in those instances they may give some carb free snacks eg pieces of boiled chicken.

Well done handling Ozzy, I think you did a great job:D:bighug:

Taffysmama said:
Taffy wants to know how he got to be in charge here!?! o_O:p
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LOL that made me laugh.
 
what is a good feeding cycle? I heard every 3-4 hrs small meals but that conflicts with no food after +6. He has been getting small meals every 3-4 hrs. But gaining weight too!! Need to figure this out! In the past Ozzy has vomited quite a bit before breakfast meal time. Giving him a small snack in timed feeder (around 4am) has really helped with that. I think he is one of those kitties with stomach acid issues and anticipates his food before he gets it..his throw up in the am was usually just liquid.
 
Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
what is a good feeding cycle? I heard every 3-4 hrs small meals but that conflicts with no food after +6. He has been getting small meals every 3-4 hrs. But gaining weight too!! Need to figure this out! In the past Ozzy has vomited quite a bit before breakfast meal time. Giving him a small snack in timed feeder (around 4am) has really helped with that. I think he is one of those kitties with stomach acid issues and anticipates his food before he gets it..his throw up in the am was usually just liquid.
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It of course that varies from cat to cat and depends on how the CG can feed.

You will have seen that folk recommend feeding every 3-4 hours, and that is what I do with George, the difference being that he is off the juice now, and that's what is easiest on his pancreas, also when folk are approaching remission a small snack at +9 can stimulate the pancreas and help bring the numbers down, but we are talking about cats here that are on micro doses and who are holding their BG in the normal range for a healthy ca but popping up to over 100 for PS, then the small snack late in the cycle can help to drive those preshots down. The assumption is that the pancreas is starting to work at this point.

With Kitties just starting out a feed in the latter part of the cycle can have he effect of boosting the PS numbers, since we know that Lantus does better at grabbing onto lower numbers and then running away with nice flat cycles, it makes sense to try to avoid boosting those PS up.

If you look at Georges ss, we changed his feeding schedule as we went along,
first we started with amps meal +5 meal and pmps and +5 meal (four meals a day am and pm cycle the same)

But we found that with that schedule, he had a tendency to drop hard and fast at the beginning of the cycle.

So then we changed that to more regular feeds in the early pat of the cycle.
The intention was to give him a snack at
+2 +4 +6
Though I did vary it from day to day, depending on a number of factors, including if I had to be out, if he was begging for food (often if he was begging it was a sign that his BG's were going to drop). But if you look at his ss, you will see that nearly always his feeds were done before +7, on the occasions that I fed after that was because I got a later test that was low and I was concerned that he might be too low to shoot, so I would give him a little LC snack to tide him over a small teaspoon or two of LC. Equally if I had to go out and I was worried I might feed him more snacks in his morning cycle to be sure he had enough food in him.

Then later as we got down to 0.25u, that's when we started the feeding schedule that he is still on, main meals at amps and pmps with snacks every 3 hours, so that it's easy on his pancreas, also he has early CKD, and as CKD cats can have problems with acid tummy I implemented this regime to try to prevent any issues with that.

Having said all that, I know that Ozzy has had problems with DKA and ketones, so as well as wanting to get his numbers down , you also need to be sure that he is getting enough food into his system, and that may well be why you have been advised that 3-4hrs is a sensible schedule for Ozzy, just going to tag @Marje and Gracie I'm sure she'll know if it's preferable to keep to a 3-4hr schedule in Ozzy's case. (I haven't had personal experience with DKA and/or ketones)
 
Gill & George said:
It of course that varies from cat to cat and depends on how the CG can feed.

You will have seen that folk recommend feeding every 3-4 hours, and that is what I do with George, the difference being that he is off the juice now, and that's what is easiest on his pancreas, also when folk are approaching remission a small snack at +9 can stimulate the pancreas and help bring the numbers down, but we are talking about cats here that are on micro doses and who are holding their BG in the normal range for a healthy ca but popping up to over 100 for PS, then the small snack late in the cycle can help to drive those preshots down. The assumption is that the pancreas is starting to work at this point.

With Kitties just starting out a feed in the latter part of the cycle can have he effect of boosting the PS numbers, since we know that Lantus does better at grabbing onto lower numbers and then running away with nice flat cycles, it makes sense to try to avoid boosting those PS up.

If you look at Georges ss, we changed his feeding schedule as we went along,
first we started with amps meal +5 meal and pmps and +5 meal (four meals a day am and pm cycle the same)

But we found that with that schedule, he had a tendency to drop hard and fast at the beginning of the cycle.

So then we changed that to more regular feeds in the early pat of the cycle.
The intention was to give him a snack at
+2 +4 +6
Though I did vary it from day to day, depending on a number of factors, including if I had to be out, if he was begging for food (often if he was begging it was a sign that his BG's were going to drop). But if you look at his ss, you will see that nearly always his feeds were done before +7, on the occasions that I fed after that was because I got a later test that was low and I was concerned that he might be too low to shoot, so I would give him a little LC snack to tide him over a small teaspoon or two of LC. Equally if I had to go out and I was worried I might feed him more snacks in his morning cycle to be sure he had enough food in him.

Then later as we got down to 0.25u, that's when we started the feeding schedule that he is still on, main meals at amps and pmps with snacks every 3 hours, so that it's easy on his pancreas, also he has early CKD, and as CKD cats can have problems with acid tummy I implemented this regime to try to prevent any issues with that.

Having said all that, I know that Ozzy has had problems with DKA and ketones, so as well as wanting to get his numbers down , you also need to be sure that he is getting enough food into his system, and that may well be why you have been advised that 3-4hrs is a sensible schedule for Ozzy, just going to tag @Marje and Gracie I'm sure she'll know if it's preferable to keep to a 3-4hr schedule in Ozzy's case. (I haven't had personal experience with DKA and/or ketones)
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Thanks for sharing this info. It's very helpful. I do think we need to cut down on the number of feeds for both Ozzy and Figgie because they both seem to be gaining weight. But I think I should still have some minimeals out in the feeder up to the +6/+7 point. The reason I say this is because I won't be here during the day to monitor and if Ozzy starts dropping low, I want him to have some food available. Hopefully he can self steer and go grab a bite to eat. So probably will do mini meals in the feeder after his shots and maybe one small meal about 3 hours before breakfast to avoid his tummy upset (vomiting). Does that sound reasonable? Still trying to figure this all out.
 
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