AMPS=307, +2.5=111, +3.15= 62!!!!

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Critter Mom said:
I've thought so since the AM cycle of 18 December - nadir 105 on that cycle and general trend in BGs was drifting down a bit.

As you see here today, Vetsulin can really tank BG really fast - hence FDMB Vetsulin Guide recommendation not to aim for nadirs below 100 on a human meter. Keeping the safety buffer there provides a protective cushion should something unusual happen (e.g. not eating as much, vomiting, exercising a little more than usual).

Now that Ozzy is receiving insulin it's taking strain off his pancreas and allowing it to rest - and hopefully recover more beta cell function. Remember how Elmo's BGs gradually eased down the range as his treatment continued.


Mogs
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So what do you think? Take him down to .75u tonight or go to .5?
 
We need to see what happens for the rest of the cycle and how the high carb treats affect him BUT if Ozzy were mine I would reduce the dose tonight. I would also plan to monitor him until at least +4 on the PM cycle.

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Critter Mom said:
We need to see what happens for the rest of the cycle and how the high carb treats affect him BUT if Ozzy were mine I would reduce the dose tonight. I would also plan to monitor him until at least +4 on the PM cycle.
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Will definitely monitor him tonight again at least to +4.

Should I go with .75U or .5U at PMS? What would you do?
 
Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
Thanks! Thanks so much for walking me through this
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Around this time two years ago another member was walking me through a low and I was beyond grateful. Back then I never thought for one minute that one day I might be doing the same. :)

The members here have been extraordinarly kind and generous to Saoirse and myself; they have helped us through so much. I am very grateful for a chance to pay forward.

:bighug:

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Critter Mom said:
Around this time two years ago another member was walking me through a low and I was beyond grateful. Back then I never thought for one minute that one day I might be doing the same. :)

The members here have been extraordinarly kind and generous to Saoirse and myself; they have helped us through so much. I am very grateful for a chance to pay forward.

:bighug:
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Love this! :)
 
+5.5 = 197. Probably going to go into the high 300's by preshot. Poor kitty... what a rollercoaster for him today. He is sleeping... looks a little wiped out from today's events.
 
Promised Pawzie I wasn't going to poke him too much today since I curved him both cycles yesterday. I almost didn't test him again after breakfast today. Could you imagine?!:nailbiting:

Note to self: don't promise your kitty anything but love and food!:rolleyes:
 
Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
Thanks for checking on us.
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Glad to hear all is OK. I get fretty when it goes quiet. :nailbiting:

Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
+5.5 = 197. Probably going to go into the high 300's by preshot. Poor kitty... what a rollercoaster for him today. He is sleeping... looks a little wiped out from today's events.
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It was a hard, fast drop; can be tough on the body. (((Ozzy)))

Numbers over the next while will be influenced by the higher carbs and possibly bouncing but they should settle again as the carbs work their way out of the system and any bouncing clears.

As I learned more about how Vetsulin affects BG levels I made sure I always tested early in the cycle - AM and PM.

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Holy moly! I was out doing errands and missed another kitty crash! What the heck is going on the last few days?? So glad you had help.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Holy moly! I was out doing errands and missed another kitty crash! What the heck is going on the last few days?? So glad you had help.
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It's crazy over here. I was totally not expecting this today. He has been cruising ok for awhile. Today was his lowest number since starting vestulin (well...that was recorded I should say...never know when you are not monitoring).

Mogs was really helpful. We got kitty back into the blue. I'm sure he'll be pink here real soon. Hoping not red though. He hasn't gone red since we got him home (except once at the vets).
 
Critter Mom said:
As I learned more about how Vetsulin affects BG levels I made sure I always tested early in the cycle - AM and PM.
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When I get back to work after the 2nd, this will not be possible for the AM cycle and I can only do this up to +4 on the PM cycle. Not sure what we are going to do or how to figure this out. Wish I didn't have to give him insulin during the day. Hubby even suggested this... I'm a little confused about our next steps with this since we cannot monitor at work.
 
Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
When I get back to work after the 2nd, this will not be possible for the AM cycle and I can only do this up to +4 on the PM cycle. Not sure what we are going to do or how to figure this out. Wish I didn't have to give him insulin during the day. Hubby even suggested this... I'm a little confused about our next steps with this since we cannot monitor at work.
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Unfortunately kitties need twice daily dosing with insulin because they metabolize it rapidly. Switching to a slower acting insulin would likely help - are you still considering Lantus? Are you going to lower the dose tonight?
 
Kris & Teasel said:
Unfortunately kitties need twice daily dosing with insulin because they metabolize it rapidly. Switching to a slower acting insulin would likely help - are you still considering Lantus? Are you going to lower the dose tonight?
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I would definitely like to consider a slower acting insulin. Is it too soon to make a switch for Ozzy since he is still all new to this?

Besides slower acting, what are the other benefits of switching? Which insulin is slower acting but also allows for flexibility? I have a busy corporate job and there will be times where the 12/12 may be off by an hour or so, maybe on both ends (AM/PM). I know the best choice of insulin is really Ozzy's choice - meaning the one he responds the best to.

Mogs thinks the 1U is too much for Ozzy now. She commented on this above.

How much should I give tonight? .75 or .5? It's really hard to tell the difference on my syringes, I have to eyeball the .75. I am expecting higher numbers PS tonight since he ate some kibble (oh he was so happy about that) and maybe from bouncing back from the low of 61.

Still a few hours to go before next shot. Will test him again in about 3 hours.

We are FINALLY getting out to get those last 2 presents for xmas!
 
Hi Jo,

Sorry I didn't get back sooner.

I suggest getting a cheap 'n' cheerful jeweller's loupe to magnify the syringe markings; makes dose measurement a fair bit easier.

You did really well today, Jo! :cat:

NB: Log all the food type/timings for the low today in your spreadsheet. That way you'll have a record of which foods helped Ozzy's levels rise (and how quickly). It's very useful to have this information to refer back to should Ozzy have a low run in the future.


Mogs
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Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
I have a busy corporate job and there will be times where the 12/12 may be off by an hour or so, maybe on both ends (AM/PM).
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Once a cat's pattern of response to a depot insulin is better known there are some people who work with a slightly different dosing schedule to the recommended 12/12; for example, some do an 11/13 schedule. While not 'strictly protocol' the possibility is there.

FYI Prozinc is a longer-acting in-out insulin. I've not used it. It is supposed to be gentler-acting than Vetsulin but from the spreadsheets of kitties I've seen being treated with it this insulin may still produce relatively wide swings in BG over a cycle. L insulin curves tend to be flatter and smoother overall.


Mogs
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Just got home from our last minute xmas shopping. Holy hell it's a mad house out there. I had to drive 2 miles out of the way and around the mall just to get back to my house (we live on the same road that leads to the mall). Glad to be back! Time for a tottie!!

Just took Ozzy's +10 = 367. He ate a small .5 oz dinner. Will try to feed him more and then will shoot here in a bit. OMG...I sound like a drug addict! :nailbiting:

How much???? .75U or .5U? I honestly want an uneventful night tonight. For both Kitty and me..
 
Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
Just got home from our last minute xmas shopping. Holy hell it's a mad house out there. I had to drive 2 miles out of the way and around the mall just to get back to my house (we live on the same road that leads to the mall). Glad to be back! Time for a tottie!!

Just took Ozzy's +10 = 367. He ate a small .5 oz dinner. Will try to feed him more and then will shoot here in a bit. OMG...I sound like a drug addict! :nailbiting:

How much???? .75U or .5U? I honestly want an uneventful night tonight. For both Kitty and me..
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Girl, your post made me laugh out loud :joyful::joyful::joyful::joyful:. Elmo threw me a curve with high(for him) PMPS tonight too...told Mogs I was gonna crate him and send him to her !!! I'm too old for this !!!Glad u got ur shopping finished..our daughter and son in law live in San Francisco and love it . Pray your night is uneventful ...you have earned it for certain !!!!!
 
Critter Mom said:
L insulin curves tend to be flatter and smoother overall.
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Do L insulins offer any dosing flexibility? Also, when is the typical nadir for L insulins? I think I saw somewhere on this board that they are closer to 8 hours vs. Vestulin's 4-6 hour nadir. I guess if they don't cause such drastic drops, I might not have to worry so much about being gone from home or late at night when I'm asleep and not able to monitor. Right? Also, aren't the L insulins the ones you use to do the Tight Regulation Protocol? I am very interested in this process. Can you send me any info to read up on? I'm sure you guys/gals have stuff already ready for us newbies to just point and click. Or hoping...:bighug:
 
Beth 73 said:
Girl, your post made me laugh out loud :joyful::joyful::joyful::joyful:. Elmo threw me a curve with high(for him) PMPS tonight too...told Mogs I was gonna crate him and send him to her !!! I'm too old for this !!!Glad u got ur shopping finished..our daughter and son in law live in San Francisco and love it . Pray your night is uneventful ...you have earned it for certain !!!!!
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We are in southern CA in the Los Angeles/Orange County area.

I'm sure Mogs would love an Elmo! Who wouldn't! Haha. Sorry you had an eventful day, too. I'm gonna head over and check out your thread today to see what naughty Elmo has been up to and how badly crazy he has been driving his meowmy!
 
Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
Do L insulins offer any dosing flexibility? Also, when is the typical nadir for L insulins? I think I saw somewhere on this board that they are closer to 8 hours vs. Vestulin's 4-6 hour nadir. I guess if they don't cause such drastic drops, I might not have to worry so much about being gone from home or late at night when I'm asleep and not able to monitor. Right? Also, aren't the L insulins the ones you use to do the Tight Regulation Protocol? I am very interested in this process. Can you send me any info to read up on? I'm sure you guys/gals have stuff already ready for us newbies to just point and click. Or hoping...:bighug:
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There's a lot of info on the L insulins in the stickies on that forum.
 
Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
Ok...

But what does this mean? Insulin sensitive? I don't understand.
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When they drop much lower than they've been a process can be triggered whereby the glycogen reserves in the liver are mobilized and turned into glucose which is dumped into the blood stream. This is an attempt to shore up the BG in what appears (to their system) to be an emergency. This can cause BG to shoot high in what we call a bounce, an overreaction. That can deplete those glycogen reserves such that the next time the BG drops lower than what they've been used to those reserves aren't sufficient to counter the drop. BG numbers can then plummet. I call the stored glycogen "bounce fuel". Too many drops into lower than usual numbers can deplete the bounce fuel so the next drop is unopposed by the compensatory mechanism.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
When they drop much lower than they've been a process can be triggered whereby the glycogen reserves in the liver are mobilized and turned into glucose which is dumped into the blood stream. This is an attempt to shore up the BG in what appears (to their system) to be an emergency. This can cause BG to shoot high in what we call a bounce, an overreaction. That can deplete those glycogen reserves such that the next time the BG drops lower than what they've been used to those reserves aren't sufficient to counter the drop. BG numbers can then plummet. I call the stored glycogen "bounce fuel". Too many drops into lower than usual numbers can deplete the bounce fuel so the next drop is unopposed by the compensatory mechanism.
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Got it. Thanks for taking the time to explain Kris. So basically if his bounce fuel gets depleted, the next time he goes low, his system might not be able to bounce back and he could be facing a real hypo event. Yikes!
Will definitely be giving him .5 units tonight. Should I stick with this dose for awhile and see how he does on it?
 
Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
Got it. Thanks for taking the time to explain Kris. So basically if his bounce fuel gets depleted, the next time he goes low, his system might not be able to bounce back and he could be facing a real hypo event. Yikes!
Will definitely be giving him .5 units tonight. Should I stick with this dose for awhile and see how he does on it?
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If it was me, I'd give 0.5 u tonight and both AM and PM tomorrow.
 
Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
Mogs...do you think the 1U is too much now or always has been? He was doing ok on the 1U so far but still staying mostly yellow and pink. Or do you think that he's starting to get used to insulin and he now needs a lower dose?
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Kris, curious your thoughts also on the question I asked Mogs earlier this afternoon.

Do you think Ozzy has always been on too high a dose (even at 1U) or do you think he is getting used to insulin, his body is healing, and maybe his diet change to wet only is making him need less insulin?
 
Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
Got it. Thanks for taking the time to explain Kris. So basically if his bounce fuel gets depleted, the next time he goes low, his system might not be able to bounce back and he could be facing a real hypo event. Yikes!
Will definitely be giving him .5 units tonight. Should I stick with this dose for awhile and see how he does on it?
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The bounce fuel (I've coined a new term!) builds up again over time as they either stay in higher numbers or BG is steady at a good level.
 
Ozzy Pawzbourne said:
Kris, curious your thoughts also on the question I asked Mogs earlier this afternoon.

Do you think Ozzy has always been on too high a dose (even at 1U) or do you think he is getting used to insulin, his body is healing, and maybe his diet change to wet only is making him need less insulin?
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There could be many factors. If he had high BG for a while, glucose toxicity could have developed which renders the cells less sensitive to insulin (insulin resistance) and a given dose, say 1 u, would have given you pinks and yellows. As insulin therapy proceeds some of the toxicity will diminish making the cells gradually more sensitive to insulin so that the dose will drop them more. That can trigger bouncing. As more time is spent in "healing numbers" as it's referred to here often, the toxicity reverses and the cells become responsive to (generally) lower doses.

There are other things at play as well such as the positive effect of low carb food, recovery from DKA, etc.
 
I have to admit I'm kinda jealous that Thomas (Coffee & Cats) is already in greens and she is giving no shots. So happy for little Thomas. Wish that for me kitty, too!
 
Quick fly-past. Ozzy did well holding in the pinks at PMPS.

For rest and safety I'd have also suggested the 0.5IU dose. You're still checking for ketones, right?

I'd still suggest checking till +4. The higher carb contraband keeps numbers higher for a while so they may influence the earlier numbers in the cycle before their effects wear off.


Mogs
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raining-cats-and-dogs_art.jpg

It's raining cats and dogs over here in not-so sunny California right now. Sorry...I couldn't help myself! :cat:
We shouldn't complain...we have been in a drought for years and I know so many folks that are snowed in around the country!
 
Critter Mom said:
For rest and safety I'd have also suggested the 0.5IU dose. You're still checking for ketones, right?
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I gave him the .5 dose tonight. Going to test at +2 and +4. Haven't been able to get a ketone test on him today. He is secretly peeing without me knowing! Think he wants his privacy back. I will try to get another test tonight and if not tomorrow for sure. He has been testing negative all along since he came home from the hospital so that is good.
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
Yes indeedy we are snowed in.
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Yikes. That sounds scary and cold. Hope you have lots of food and firewood and are staying warm.
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
I'd be happy to ship some to you so you can melt it down to water your plants!
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Only if you send me some of that cheap Canadian Lantus I keep hearing about. Yep...it's confirmed...I sound like a drug addict. "But it's for my friend, not me". Yes...I do!:eek:
 
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