New Thread for Bandit's BG Test Day(s)

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Hi everyone,:woot:

We're not going to do a curve today.

Since one of us or both have the day off between now and next Thursday, we're going to use observing him as our monitoring method (per Dr.'s Orders). She felt the additional stress of testing could be throwing off his numbers. She'd rather let the new dosage sink in minus the stress factor and then go for some hard numbers after the break.

I have today off, work Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, then have Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday off. My wife has the normal long weekend off (grrrr I'm jealous), Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Between those days and Thanksgiving there will be someone around him nearly constantly (other than short errands out of the house).

It took my wife 4 years of holding and hugging Bandit (sometimes against his will ;)) to get him acclimated to her (and others to some extent). Hers is the only lap he will jump into willingly, other than a short nightly visit to me at bedtime. He will sit in her lap for an hour straight when the two are home alone. He's been avoiding her like the plague and it's breaking her heart, and stressing him out. Not good for all involved.

We will diligently observe him during this time, I promise we're not being callous or reckless in our actions. I know how concerned you all are, and don't want you to think we've given up on him. That will not happen.
 
Yes Kevin thanks for the update. This illness is stressful enough for both kitty and their beans, and it is important to keep kitty's quality of life issues front and center. I too wish you a wonderful (and uneventful Bandit-wise) Thanksgiving
@Merlin - what are you doing up at this time of the morning - its your middle of the night
 
@Carol & Murphy - Well because Merlin threw me a couple of lower PMPS numbers so I am shooting earlier. I don't like to shoot after 6pm because I go to bed early so today I tried 5am. Unfortunately, I think I got some fur this morning....maybe still was asleep. Then I go right back to bed! :)
 
You might find some of the Secondary Monitoring Tools in my signature link helpful in assessing him.
 
Update:

Had to skip the monitoring day due to a job interviews. Yeah!!! Not that I'm unemployed but my job now isn't anything to write home about. Periodically tested Bandit, but not enough to chart, never below a 70 and never above a 140. Dr. says he's really taking well to the new dosage. Visually he showed no adverse signs this entire stretch of time. He's playful, snuggly (for him), and in general very happy. Our injections have been very regimented, not varying more than 10 minutes.

I have next Tuesday and Wednesday off (you can see why I'm interviewing), and will do a full day of testing one of those days.

Things are looking very good. :joyful:
 
Great, Kevin! Thanks for the update, been wondering how Bandit has been doing.
 
Hi folks,

Going to 1 unit. His pancreas must be recovering nicely since it's taking so little insulin to get his numbers good. Tested at an 81 this morning, consulted Dr., gave him shot at 1 unit, going to monitor him for adverse signs and test before I go to work at noon. All the while conducting phone interviews with possible employers. Ugh. Wife will be home by 3pm so he'll only go unobserved for that short time span.

Thanks everyone !!!
 
Just a quick note out of concern (as a longtime AlphaTrak user): Don't understand why your vet has you shooting Bandit at numbers this low
(I'm referring to 11/24's AMPS of 119 & today's AMPS of 81). BOTH numbers are well within normal limits on a human meter; on an AlphaTrak2 these are EXTREMELY low #s. Even though I've been treating a diabetic cat since 2013 & have consistently tested at mid-cycle, I do not shoot if my cat is below 150 on the AlphaTrak --- and when I do, I am always able to monitor her around her nadir-drop time.

Shooting this low is very risky business (in my humble opinion). I have no idea what your vet is thinking, but I know my own vet would tell me not to shoot at these numbers!) Again, just posting this to you out of a sincere concern for your kitty's continued good health. :)
 
Robin&BB said:
Just a quick note out of concern (as a longtime AlphaTrak user): Don't understand why your vet has you shooting Bandit at numbers this low
(I'm referring to 11/24's AMPS of 119 & today's AMPS of 81). BOTH numbers are well within normal limits on a human meter; on an AlphaTrak2 these are EXTREMELY low #s. Even though I've been treating a diabetic cat since 2013 & have consistently tested at mid-cycle, I do not shoot if my cat is below 150 on the AlphaTrak --- and when I do, I am always able to monitor her around her nadir-drop time.

Shooting this low is very risky business (in my humble opinion). I have no idea what your vet is thinking, but I know my own vet would tell me not to shoot at these numbers!) Again, just posting this to you out of a sincere concern for your kitty's continued good health. :)
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@Robin&BB now I'm confused. Are saying not to shoot at these numbers because the previous cycle are low? Or are you saying never to shoot these numbers? Peeps where saying it was ok for me to shoot 98 and 95 the other night but Smokey has been high. I just want to understand what is right.
 
Woodsy Wife, you are using Lantus, not ProZinc. They are dosed differently. Lantus is a depot insulin that has longer, flatter cycles and you do shoot at lower numbers. ProZinc is an in and out insulin and we don't suggest shooting under 150 as the onset is faster, as is the cycle.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Woodsy Wife, you are using Lantus, not ProZinc. They are dosed differently. Lantus is a depot insulin that has longer, flatter cycles and you do shoot at lower numbers. ProZinc is an in and out insulin and we don't suggest shooting under 150 as the onset is faster, as is the cycle.
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Absolutely!
(Thanks, Sue! :) I'm kinda tied up this afternoon, just saw this in passing, on my phone.)
 
Robin&BB said:
Just a quick note out of concern (as a longtime AlphaTrak user): Don't understand why your vet has you shooting Bandit at numbers this low
(I'm referring to 11/24's AMPS of 119 & today's AMPS of 81). BOTH numbers are well within normal limits on a human meter; on an AlphaTrak2 these are EXTREMELY low #s. Even though I've been treating a diabetic cat since 2013 & have consistently tested at mid-cycle, I do not shoot if my cat is below 150 on the AlphaTrak --- and when I do, I am always able to monitor her around her nadir-drop time.

Shooting this low is very risky business (in my humble opinion). I have no idea what your vet is thinking, but I know my own vet would tell me not to shoot at these numbers!) Again, just posting this to you out of a sincere concern for your kitty's continued good health. :)
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How I understand it is this: At his age, BG numbers, and other factors. Putting him into low BG numbers for short periods (without any adverse visual signs), will help his pancreas heal itself, eventually putting him into remission.

That was what I got out of the latest conversation with the Dr. It's only for a few days and I'm going to do more BG testing so she can see the numbers. I'm curious where he is post shot, or 1/2 way between shots. I'm going to test before I go to work at noon today. 79 this morning. And I did give him slightly less than 1 unit.

The only thing I can think of is, I did get a vile of strips that have a different calibration number (36), and if (big if) some of those strips got mixed up with the ones at a 92 calibration. I asked my wife is she combined them or tried to, she didn't. I haven't either, each vile was separate from the other and no one ever mixed up the two. I'm going to test with the the other strips (re-calibrating for them), and see if I get similar results. Unfortunately there's no way of telling by the strips themselves how they are calibrated.

On a side note:

If he goes into remission, or I can skip an injection or two because he is so low, we're going away for a day or two. Not as a reward, not to get away from Bandit but as incentive to do so. We're homebodies for the most part and haven't gone anywhere in a few years. I'm talking not even an overnight thing. We were talking about getting away just before Bandit was diagnosed. We thought, well it's Karma, we're stay at home people and now we have a stay at home cat. With his hopeful remission will come the incentive to get out and go somewhere nice, we work hard and although we love being home we should really get out more often.

Funny how life works sometimes..........
 
Bandit said:
How I understand it is this: At his age, BG numbers, and other factors. Putting him into low BG numbers for short periods (without any adverse visual signs), will help his pancreas heal itself, eventually putting him into remission.
79 this morning. And I did give him slightly less than 1 unit.
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I don't know how any of us here can help you further, Bandit's dad. You have been told - repeatedly, by a number of experienced FDMB members - that many of the pre-shot #s you've been seeing from Bandit are too low to shoot. Yet you continue to put your cat at risk based on shoddy advice by an apparently irresponsible veterinarian, one who seems to have scant knowledge of safe dosing guidelines for ProZinc.

Trust me on this: Not ALL cats show "adverse visual signs" of hypoglycemia. I know this well: My cat is one of those who does not. And I nearly killed her in 2013 as a result of depending on "visual" symptoms of hypoglycemia.

Bandit is already showing you normal numbers at pre-shot time. So this begs the question: Would you shoot insulin - a powerful hormone - into a human child whose pre-shot blood glucose numbers are testing as normal? (If your answer to that question is "No," then why should this be any different for your cat?)

I only hope that some brand-new member does NOT stumble upon your spreadsheet and mistakenly assume that what you are doing is considered safe practice in dosing ProZinc. Because here at FDMB, it is not considered safe practice, not by any stretch of the imagination.

And my hope for Bandit is that he will continue to be a lucky cat (one who is able to withstand any future unnecessary shots of insulin).
 
Kevin,
Were you able to test before work today?
Did Bandit get a PM test and shot last night?
 
Some new numbers on the SS if anyone is interested.

Strips do say 38 not 36 for feline. As a control test I re-calibrated the meter for the 38 strips and came up with the most recent BG level (107 at +4hrs). So nothing out of the ordinary as compared to the other strips. I'm certain they didn't get mixed together.

@Robbin&BB: I appreciated your concern. But I think she's going to take him off it very soon. She only wanted a few more numbers. And I'm in contact with her daily.
 
Moved to .5 tonight

Everything is looking good. Will be testing tomorrow in phone interviews (again).
 
Glad to hear about the reduction! I dosed pretty aggressively, but you were making even me nervous!
 
Update on Bandit,

Got some decent testing in on New Years (yeah we're homebodies). Dr. said the numbers looked real good.

BG Testing AMPS/PMPS only for the next 7 days. If numbers hold true, we're taking him off insulin, going for blood/urine work up as a precaution, then obviously BG monitoring daily for a few weeks to make sure things don't rise again

I can't thank everyone here enough for their support and concern. Just seeing the positive comments, and posts about dealing with this thing as an every day slight inconvenience gave me hope and confidence this wasn't going to be some monumental task. And it's not really as long as your diligent and caring.

Thanks again everyone and I'll let you know how things go
 
Great news, Kevin!

Just keep in mind that Bandit will always be a diabetic. In remission, but not "cured". Just keep an eye out for any symptoms that might reappear in the future, keep feeding an appropriate diet, and hold on to your meter just in case.
 
Hi Folks,

Well after the latest numbers, she's taking him off the needle. We are to use DiaStix from Bayer periodically for screening and BG testing if we like too.

We'll see how it goes keeping a close eye on his behavior, especially these first few days. I have a new job (the interviewing paid off) so I gave myself a little vacation next week. I'll be able to keep a close eye on him through most of that time (minus errands and such).
 
Good luck on you OTJ (Off the Juice) Trial. Here is some good info regarding OTJ trial.

OTJ Trial Instructions
Here are the OTJ trial instructions so you have the info:

Start the trial on the next green pre shot.

If he/she is green at your normal test times, no need to test further until the next "PS" time; just feed small meals and go about your day. If he/she is blue at your normal "PS", feed a small meal and test again after about 3 or 4 hours. If his/her number is lower 3-4 hours after a meal, then the pancreas is working!

Post every day so we can monitor your progress and see if any tweaks are needed. He/she may have a sporadic blue number. Don't panic but post before you decide whether to shoot so we can have a discussion.

After 14 days of no insulin, we have a party!!

Sometimes the trial doesn't work the first time and we have to give a little more support in the form of resuming insulin. It's not the end of the world if that happens; we just give him/her the support needed. Our goal is a strong remission and it's better to take our time to get that than to rush into remission just to have it fail later on.

Good luck with the trial!!!

Once he/she is through the trial successfully, you enter a new phase. Your cat is still diabetic but has now become diet-controlled. Continue feeding low carb food in the manner successful for your kitty. If you decide to change his/her feeding schedule, let your meter be your guide to the best times to feed. Avoid medications with sugar in them and steroid medications unless they are medically essential. Continue testing blood glucose weekly for the first month and then monthly forever. It's a good idea to weigh him/her monthly. Weight should remain stable. If he/she seems "off" or sick, or is showing signs of diabetes (excessive drinking, eating, urinating, weight loss), test his/her blood glucose right away. Keep the teeth and gums clean and healthy; dental issues can bring a cat out of remission. If you see rising blood glucose numbers, it's time for a visit to the vet!
 
Hi every one........

Back on the needle :cool:

He had an uptick in his water consumption, that really was our only indicator. His behavior was normal (slightly less energetic) considering the heat we've been experiencing here in the NorthEast. So I tested and he was in the low 300s. A week before he was in the low 100s. Doc saw him the next day. All the other numbers from the lab work look real good. He's a normal cat other than the diabetes.

Merlin said:
Once he/she is through the trial successfully, you enter a new phase. Your cat is still diabetic but has now become diet-controlled.
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We were pretty religious about his diet, but Doc said these things happen sometimes and there's little anyone can do about it. Back on 2 units. It's not a big deal, and I'm on a vacation this week as I'm changing jobs (yet again), so I can get in some good BG testing. That way we can can zero in a good dosage that much faster.

Funny how things work in life sometimes:
His initial diagnosis coincided with the start of a new job (for me). When he went into remission we were planning on "getting away". Having realized how hard it is to do that even without a diabetic cat. This company offered zero vacation the first year, but I could take unpaid leave after our busy season was over (summer). My particular skillset is in demand right now so I've been going on interviews. I gave this past company 9 months, but could tell they were sort of dysfunctional and not looking to the future. I accepted a position at a competitor, and with regret (some of it feigned) gave my two week notice. My new employer suggested taking this holiday week off before jumping in. Then Bandit's BG shot up and here I am on "vacation". I've got work to do around the house that's been on hold, and this heat is supposed to subside somewhat.

Such is life, my new employer gives me 5 accumulated vacation days the first year (only to be used after 6 months). Sort of 1 week vacation as long as things work out. 1 week at my first year anniversary up front, along with 5 accumulated during that year. So 2 weeks the second year. We'll figure something out going forward. There are interns we can pay to come to the house, feed, and administer the dosage if nessecary.

We'd probably go here, there's a place with a direct view of this, Nubble Light House, ME. One of the most photographed Lighthouses in the world.

Nubble Light House

Spread Sheet is active again in case anyone is interested.
 
Good luck on your new job. The light house is beautiful. Love lighthouses. My vacations never seemed to coincide with hubby. When I went back to my former employer after a lay off, the business was acquired and vacation went from 5 weeks to 2 weeks under the new company. I use to take Friday or Monday off and make it a long weekend. When done over a holiday weekend it became a mini week off . Husband worked weekends so it was nice having no work and hubby not home. Truly a vacation.
 
Woodsywife said:
Good luck on your new job. The light house is beautiful. Love lighthouses. My vacations never seemed to coincide with hubby. When I went back to my former employer after a lay off, the business was acquired and vacation went from 5 weeks to 2 weeks under the new company. I use to take Friday or Monday off and make it a long weekend. When done over a holiday weekend it became a mini week off . Husband worked weekends so it was nice having no work and hubby not home. Truly a vacation.
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Thanks.

I took that photo of Nubble on a daily excursion there a few weeks ago. It's cool. It sits on an island outcropping of rock, but the outcropping on the peninsula is only a few 100 feet away. Some one had a small wedding when we were there too.

I'm putting extra onus on a vacation because it's been about 6 years now since I had one longer than 5 or 6 days (total). I gave up 3 weeks to go to the last place, so I probably would have gotten a decent one in, but at the cost of working nearly every weekend and most holidays. Life is a series of choices and trade-offs. So it's me and Bandit and some overdue household improvements this week, and possible a year end party somewhere for the holiday weekend coming up.
 
Sorry you are back but as Sue said, good timing
I hope Bandit goes into remission quickly
Your new employer sounds like they treat their employees better - congratulations. Seems like it is a race to the bottom in many American companies - people deserve better.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Sorry you and Bandit are back. That isn't a bad preshot. Paws crossed you can get him down again. At least he picked a convenient time!
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Carol & Murphy said:
Sorry you are back but as Sue said, good timing
I hope Bandit goes into remission quickly
Your new employer sounds like they treat their employees better - congratulations. Seems like it is a race to the bottom in many American companies - people deserve better.
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Thanks guys/gals.

He was at a 153 this last preshot. Our Doc is real good about responding to emails with the BG spread sheet attached. She'll take a look at the numbers tomorrow morning.

The company that most recently employed me weathered the recession and the bigbox storm, but didn't learn from it. They're a family "run" buisness, which is entirely different than a family owned buisness. The head hunter who referred me for the the job was right. They're a quaint, low pressure, local institution. What he didn't mention was no had a raise in the last eight years. The nepotism ran through the 3 locations so heavy a family tree would have been more useful than an employee phone book. I feel bad for them. For all they knew I was a good fit, then boom. They made no attempt at a counter offer or exit interview. I think they'd seen that scene before. If I was less ambitious it would probably be a good fit. But the new position ticked too many boxes. More money, closer to home (no brutal commute) advanced technology (the lesson "they" didn't learn), better hours, and no weekends (rotated every third Saturday) . And biggest of all no more waiting on the general public, which isn't their fault because that was the position I was hired to do. Although an inside position did come up and I wasn't considered for it. Sort of a snub at any other similar employer.

To their credit they don't lay people off (that has good and bad ramification) they're friendly and if you make the cut (which I did) you're part of the family. Cookouts a couple of times a month, free doughnuts and muffins every Friday morning. That sort of thing. What we also did like a family was take inventory 3 times a year. Soaked to the bone in sweat last time in a dusty shed counting parts and pieces of things. They left that out of the interview too. They would have left me alone to surf Reddit and Ebay all winter, I know it. But I'm not looking to do that too much at work. I go to work to work.

But who knows? Perhaps I'm trading off one set of good/bads for an equal amount. Although I don't think the new position can trump the basic positives (location, money, technology, hours).

Thanks to anyone reading this rant, I've only had the wife to bounce things off.
 
Update:

2 units for two weeks, testing every other day, making adjustments accordingly. He's into the 100's again, but never too low not to shoot. Which is a double edged sword. Too low a decision has to be made, but it also means remission is a possibility. If he remains in a shootable range no decision and life goes on as usual.
 
You are right - good and bad news. Push or not push? The ss is missing the more recent numbers. (Or at least I can't see them). The hope would be he would gradually come down on his own.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
You are right - good and bad news. Push or not push? The ss is missing the more recent numbers. (Or at least I can't see them). The hope would be he would gradually come down on his own.
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I've been remodeling my bathroom so I missed logging the number on the "3rd" day (high 100's). Today was 190 AMPS. Doc said AMPS was the best for occasional testing. For Bandit it's water consumption and coat that are good indicators he's relapsing. His coat was slightly course because of the initial dehydration . After only a week it's already more like mink. It's subtle, but if he goes into remission again I'll pay more attention to his coat. He only snuggles with me for a few minutes at night while I get ready to sleep, so the wife will be the coat inspector since he'll sit with her for extended periods of time.

Revised my signature to reflect current status and dosage.
 
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Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
You did your own thing before. Of course, we strongly suggest that you test each preshot as his levels can suddenly change.
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I tested preshot the best I could for a couple of days. Sent the numbers to the doctors. She wanted some interim numbers this weekend. See SS

He's gotten pretty low today. I'm going to do a PMPS and if he's low move him back to 1 unit.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Could you please add this to your signature: INDIVIDUALIZED DOSING. DO NOT COPY. As a forum, we do not advocate the method you are using and I would hate for anyone new to diabetes to use it.
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And what method is that? Every dosage other than one one I'm considering tonight has been Dr. prescribed.

I'm actually moving this dosage back (if the PMPS is still low) because of things I've been told on this forum. You can't have it both ways. The long time posters here thought my Vet was wrong in that we were shooting at too low a BG. Now when I consider taking advice based on the general consensus here, I'm "individualizing" the dosage?

So which is it? Take the advice of the forum, or you're on your own put a disclaimer in your signature (which I will)?

I was hoping to come in here and be given some advice based on similar experiences. Not be chastised for actually considering putting that advice into action.
 
Kevin, I see plenty of holes in your SS where pre-shot test #s should be. This is what @Sue and Oliver (GA) is talking about. FDMB never recommends you dose a cat with insulin without first getting a preshot number every time. That's totally out of line with our protocols, regardless of which insulin is being used. Shooting without a pre-shot test is placing a diabetic cat at risk, period.

You're neglecting to consider that a brand-new member who has joined FDMB may view your SS and get the mistaken idea that what you are doing is in line with FDMB protocols. That is irresponsible behavior on your part.

If you're not going to test at pre-shot, why are you posting a SS here at all? How is anyone here supposed to "advise" you when you're not testing your cat before you shoot the insulin? The answer is simple: We can't.
 
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Ditto to Robin's post. Kevin I wanted to also say that I am not sure why you post at all as you never take the advice given here as you seem to be okay with your vet's advice to shoot numbers that are way too low without monitoring. I remember a couple of times when you were shooting numbers that were not recommended here to shoot and scaring the bejesus out of us in fear for Bandit. .And as Robin said there are sometimes Lurkers who join here and just read post and someone with a newly diabetic cat could read what you are doing and imitate it and shoot way to low and kill their cat.

There is a forum ran by Dr Hodgkins who promotes a very accelerated way of shooting insulin and it might be a better fit for you since you said you are looking for support rather than the advice from this forum.
www.yourdiabeticcat.com
 
Robin&BB said:
Kevin, I see plenty of holes in your SS where pre-shot test #s should be. This is what @Sue and Oliver (GA) is talking about. FDMB never recommends you dose a cat with insulin without first getting a preshot number every time. That's totally out of line with our protocols, regardless of which insulin is being used. Shooting without a pre-shot test is placing a diabetic cat at risk, period.

You're neglecting to consider that a brand-new member who has joined FDMB may view your SS and get the mistaken idea that what you are doing is in line with FDMB protocols. That is irresponsible behavior on your part.

If you're not going to test at pre-shot, why are you posting a SS here at all? How is anyone here supposed to "advise" you when you're not testing your cat before you shoot the insulin? The answer is simple: We can't.
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I gotcha. I misunderstood the exact purpose and reason for the disclaimer.

So PMPS is 74. :confused:



Bobbie and Bubba said:
There is a forum ran by Dr Hodgkins who promotes a very accelerated way of shooting insulin and it might be a better fit for you since you said you are looking for support rather than the advice for this forum.
www.yourdiabeticcat.com
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Our Dr. does seem to be of this discipline.

She didn't seem too concerned about the the PMPS or AMPS, since they seemed very consistent over a period of a few days. Even with PS levels in the low 100s she was confident in 2 units this entire weekend. She wanted +4 and +8 and one more interim if possible. But he gets miserable if I test him too much and it throws off the numbers.

I'm going to attempt to call her before I adminster a dosage.

But knowing what anyone knows about the effects of BG levels, why shoot 2 units at 74 with the Karo at the ready? It doesn't seem prudent regardless of what particular treatment regimen is being implemented. She'll respond early tomorrow morning and I can test through the night till I go to bed. That's if she doesn't respond to my call.

Thanks guys/gals.

Sorry for the misunderstanding...... o_O
 
Bandit said:
But knowing what anyone knows about the effects of BG levels, why shoot 2 units at 74 with the Karo at the ready?
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Exactly, Kevin - That's a no-shot #, whether on a human meter or on an AlphaTrak2 meter.

Totally "normal" BG level you're seeing at PMPS. So I would recommend you skip it. He's doing great.

P.S. And you can have a good night's sleep, too.
 
Our protocol assumes that it isn't wise to shoot doses that force numbers into dangerously low levels and then work to get them back up with Karo. A human diabetic would not treat their diabetes that way - besides being unsafe, it would feel awful, on a roller coaster from low to high.

Kevin, our responsibility is to try to give safe advice that will help the cat into safe ranges, regulation and hopefully remission. And we have to do that in a safe way. It's not our cat and we would never want to encourage a hypo in some else's cat, causing possible life long issues and possibly death.

He is your cat and you hold the syringe. But I don't agree with your methods and I was concerned new diabetics might think your dosing is usual. And, for me, I don't see any way to respond to you - I can't offer advice that fits with the way you are dosing and I don't feel right encouraging shooting so low and without pre shot tests. I hope Bandit does well.
 
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