06/22 - Small Kitty amps 542 pmps 491 +2 385 +4 268 +5 298 - TR program

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As a possible alternative, can you check around to see if you can find someone who could test SK during the AM cycle? This would allow you to use TR.

Just as another thought, is it feasible to change your shot time? I used to shoot at 5:00. This gave me time in the AM to get in at least 2 tests (+1 and +2 because Gabby had an early nadir) before I left for work. There were also some days when I could leave work and come home to test but this was not all that often.)

I'm thinking that you may feel better about using TR since it raises doses more aggressively and you would potentially see quicker progress in getting SK out of high numbers.

 
I agree with Sienne about possibly changing your shot time so you can monitor a bit in the AM only if you can be home 12 hours later for the PM shot.

Yesterday, I recommended for you to hire someone to come in and test SK during the day also. Think of it this way: pay someone a small amount to come in and test SK during the day and help to get SK in better numbers faster so you can use TR or pay the vet to run test and he will probably tell you : "SK needs more insulin" . Both suggestions are good ones if it is possible for you.

Hang in there Sebastien, I know it is rough seeing high numbers constantly. Maybe the above suggestions can help you to help SK. :bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
What you're both suggesting came to my mind while reading all the wiki diabetic cats. Yes TR could
be the way to go to break this vicious cycle. Question about testing during the day is what it would be
usefull for ? Not to blame anybody but when I did day curve there wasn't that much comments from the
old timers. This is not the goal of the forum and all I fee secure about is slgs strategy. Has nadir is at
night isn't this the best time to catch the lower level of the curve ?

I guess that TR involve shooting more often ? The only person that could do test during the day would
be the vet technician who was treating me like if I had intellectual disabilities when I had to call.
Talking to the vet was not possible, he was the contact (the stupid technician). If I don't like this guy,
Small kitty will like it even less :)

For shoot time, what would be the difference ? More testing ? In order to bring what kind of information ?
I would be possible to test and shoot at 5 but just as a temporary mesure, arriving at 5 is question of luck.

Seing bad numbers is big concern to me because it might make remission impossible. If pancreas and
liver are ''beyond repair'' that basically mean life time insulin + poisoning.

So lab test would not open lights that could find something a vet might use to help improve things ?
Other then increase insulin level ?
 
Could a vet tell me if there is internal damage already ? If pancreas and liver are still fonctionning
or having sustain to much toxicity since the last 3-4 months ? At least I'll be fix on that and stop
worrying. Knowing the inside is gone would remove the most important worries.
 
Hi Sebastien,

Here you go: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...ion-possible-with-a-full-time-job-yes.129378/

If you need a hand, ask lots of questions in the forum. You will still shoot twice a day with TR. You just test a minimum of 4 times. On days when I get crazy numbers, I have someone come check on him and test at lunch. Training a friend is easier than it seems! And easier still when the cat gets used to testing and shooting. My cat will let anyone test him now... he gets lots of petting and cooing :)
 
Yes, labs will tell of organ damage. You can spend a couple hundred dollars for a panel and change treatment if necessary. Sometimes there is kidney damage which can change how you feed and give fluids.But if he wasn't an untreated diabetic for long, his organs should be okay.
 
I've resorted to calling in a few favors from friends, they know how much my cat means to me and are happy to help. My cat is easy to test which definitely helps, maybe enlist a trusted friend who could do some daytime testing, or as others suggested a quick housecall from a vet tech. It can be very discouraging seeing the high numbers, I fear I am a member of that club as well. Here is the sticky for TR protocol, it is primarily a more aggressive approach that requires more frequent testing, but still shooting twice a day. It allows more frequent dose increases which would allow small kitty to get into better numbers more quickly. All of the protocols keep the cats safety in mind, it can be frustrating increasing slowly, but it helps find the right dose without missing the right dose by increasing too fast.

I could be wrong, please correct me if I am, but until the numbers drop a little, super frequent testing will not be as useful. Once SK's numbers start dropping, more frequent testing helps make sure he stays in the safe zone and does not drop too low. Focus on some of those yellows he has gotten and shoot for a few blues, one step at a time. It takes time and looking at a SS can be discouraging, focus on seeing those numbers drop slowly moving forward and not where he has been.

Personally, I feel doing more frequent home testing gives more data and is less costly then going to the vet, which only provides one day of stressful testing versus at home where you can start to see bigger trends in how SK responds to treatment.

I know how frustrating it can be, but hang in there, you are here, and so group has been much more helpful in making sure you are the doing the best you can to get this under control compared to a lot of vets out there, especially when a vet is hard to get in touch with. I say this group is my diabetes specialist and the vet is just a general doctor who knows a little about everything, but not too much about diabetes.
 
You are getting less black numbers though, so that is progress. I don't understand what you mean about poisoning. Most cats have or have been in high numbers for awhile before dx. Some cats are on insulin the rest of their life. Yes the longer they are high, more damage or poisoning as you call it is being done. So it's important to get those numbers down.

I guess that TR involve shooting more often ? The only person that could do test during the day would
be the vet technician who was treating me like if I had intellectual disabilities when I had to call.
Talking to the vet was not possible, he was the contact (the stupid technician). If I don't like this guy,
Small kitty will like it even less :)

TR does not require shooting more often. It allows you to raise the dose every 3 days, so you can get control.

Your priority at this point should be getting the numbers down. The longer he has them, the sicker he feels and more damage is being done.
 
Woodsywife said:
You are getting less black numbers though, so that is progress. I don't understand what you mean about poisoning. Most cats have or have been in high numbers for awhile before dx. Some cats are on insulin the rest of their life. Yes the longer they are high, more damage or poisoning as you call it is being done. So it's important to get those numbers down.

I guess that TR involve shooting more often ? The only person that could do test during the day would
be the vet technician who was treating me like if I had intellectual disabilities when I had to call.
Talking to the vet was not possible, he was the contact (the stupid technician). If I don't like this guy,
Small kitty will like it even less :)

TR does not require shooting more often. It allows you to raise the dose every 3 days, so you can get control.

Your priority at this point should be getting the numbers down. The longer he has them, the sicker he feels and more damage is being done.
Click to expand...

Small Kitty doesn't seem to feel bad but the internal damage is what frightening me. A wikidiabetic cat site has the following mention :

''http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperglycemia''
  • This vicious circle eventually makes the pancreas stop producing insulin, creating complete insulin-dependence. This suppression of the pancreas appears to be permanent in all animals.
  • Glucose toxicity[10] -- oxidized tissue becomes insulin-resistant, causing high blood sugar, which oxidizes tissues further.
''

Small Kitty must have been diabetic for more then he was diagnosed. When I decided to switch to wet food he has been on dry for
something like 4 years. He then almost stopped eating. I was sure it was just a question of finding the right wet food. When all brand
were exhausted I decided it was time for consulting. He was in very bad shape. What's above is frightening and they say this is what's
happening when high numbers are recorded for a long period of time.
 
Hi again

Small Kitty might have very manageable diabetes. My Billy went from 18lbs to 9lbs with greasy matted fur. He was VERY sick and wouldn't eat. I thought he would die. He also could barely walk from neuropathy. He is completely thriving and totally regulated on insulin now and plays like a kitten. Cats can come back from being very ill and achieve regulation or even remission. Don't give up! At age 4, he has a long healthy life ahead.

@Chris & China has some particularly amazing pictures of China's transformation. I didn't capture my little guy's transformation.

A lot of the damage is reversible. It just takes time. Regulation or remission is possible!
 
saltycat said:
I could be wrong, please correct me if I am, but until the numbers drop a little, super frequent testing will not be as useful.
Click to expand...

Salty, you're right on target, this is what I feel. I know numbers will be deadly, if there was yellow I would test like mad
knowing it's time for action. But when flirting purple is a dream what's the urgency ? Even if you test every 30 min
you know when dropping will happens and it's mostly not after 1h, it's 4-5h.. I had 200 strips no longer then a few weeks
ago, reserve is now cut by haft. Plus, I don't feel testing after meal is representative of reality, results you get is food being
transformed into sugar

TR is another story, THERE test is valuable / essential. Might have to break this vicious cycle by harder dose increase if
I dont want to have a cat that is a like a car battery, filled with acid.
 
Kiara said:
Hi again

Small Kitty might have very manageable diabetes. My Billy went from 18lbs to 9lbs with greasy matted fur. He was VERY sick and wouldn't eat. I thought he would die. He also could barely walk from neuropathy. He is completely thriving and totally regulated on insulin now and plays like a kitten. Cats can come back from being very ill and achieve regulation or even remission. Don't give up! At age 4, he has a long healthy life ahead.

@Chris & China has some particularly amazing pictures of China's transformation. I didn't capture my little guy's transformation.

A lot of the damage is reversible. It just takes time. Regulation or remission is possible!
Click to expand...

Let's God hear you Kiara. Such involvement in ''nursing'' a living organism make you feel like you're in it, would
it be human or animal. I basically feel like I'm an extension to my cat. I go, he goes (eventually).
He's not in bad shape, he meows, he run, he jump, he fight, he scrape, spin... everything.
I't not because you have a very nice car that having it pump oil like mad make it one that is in good shape.
Just it's just a question of adjusting the carburetor, intake manifold pressure or put extra octane fuel :)
 
I'll let others chime in here, but my opinion would be switch to TR. You can dose more aggressively. Small Kitty looks like he needs more insulin. You can work full time and do TR and not go crazy :)
 
Kiara said:
Yes, labs will tell of organ damage. You can spend a couple hundred dollars for a panel and change treatment if necessary. Sometimes there is kidney damage which can change how you feed and give fluids.But if he wasn't an untreated diabetic for long, his organs should be okay.
Click to expand...

I have a vet office I was recommended with Dr. Roch, a member skobidox, told me she's good at
treating diabetic cats. I might get the money spend to perform full scale tests and evaluate dental with anesthesia.
She would perform everything, with Small Kitty in her hands so she would be the best to evaluate
the state. Who knows if dental is not the point that is messing everything up. My cats never went
to dental exams.
 
Kiara said:
I'll let others chime in here, but my opinion would be switch to TR. You can dose more aggressively. Small Kitty looks like he needs more insulin. You can work full time and do TR and not go crazy :)
Click to expand...

I have a pet food store 20min away from my place, there is 4 ''kids'' (in their 20s), they could be happy
to get some extra money but they do work. Dinner time in rotation would possible but not 3 times a day.
Is a amps mid-cycle test enough for start into the TR business ? Then I can take care of business from pmps
on ?
 
I expect it can sometimes take a while to find just the right dose--our Leda's numbers were all over the place (mostly super high) when we started treating him and I thought he'd never be anywhere near regulated--the right dose was like magic, suddenly instead of being almost all pinks, reds, and blacks, he was in blues and greens with just a few yellows here and there--his body had to get used to being in normal numbers, but then he stayed in those numbers most of the time. Of course every cat is different, but I expect that SK just hasn't hit the right dose, and enough time in normal numbers yet.

The other thing that was really amazing to me, was how much difference being on insulin made to his overall health, even when he was in terrible numbers, and I expect it is the same for SK. Even though his numbers are still too high, the insulin you give is helping him process food better, and be healthier.

I hope you his his magic right dose soon, but know that you're doing an amazing thing for him already, by giving him the insulin he needs.
 
Yes, that is why you need to get the numbers lower. Unlike humans, in cats the pancreas can heal. I follow SLGS (not to the letter) for various reasons. Maybe if I had know about protocols (any of them) when I got Smokey things might be different today. Now with his heart, I'm cautious. The cardiologist says his heart issues are from prolonged diabetes. Whether or not that's true I don't know, or if there is a way to prove it. Smokey has been diabetic 6 yrs. About 4 yrs in, I found out he wasn't getting his insulin for quite sometime. I honestly never thought remission is possible for him. However, being regulated is and that is what we are striving for. I have made numerous mistakes and will probably make more. But in the two years I've had him, we hardly see any red numbers now and the pink numbers are fewer. A blue number does make him bounce to a pink number. His bounces clear quicker. Just a few weeks back he had a good run over 24 hrs of blue numbers. Probably won't see that again for awhile. All this is progress. It takes time.

Focus on getting numbers lower now, it will help getting the poisoning as you call it out of his body and start the healing process and stop damage to other organs.

Are you aware you can do TR and switch later if you decide it's not for you? I didn't know that, when I did Smokey was already was having other medical issues.
 
Madrona and Leda said:
I expect it can sometimes take a while to find just the right dose--our Leda's numbers were all over the place (mostly super high) when we started treating him and I thought he'd never be anywhere near regulated--the right dose was like magic, suddenly instead of being almost all pinks, reds, and blacks, he was in blues and greens with just a few yellows here and there--his body had to get used to being in normal numbers, but then he stayed in those numbers most of the time. Of course every cat is different, but I expect that SK just hasn't hit the right dose, and enough time in normal numbers yet.

The other thing that was really amazing to me, was how much difference being on insulin made to his overall health, even when he was in terrible numbers, and I expect it is the same for SK. Even though his numbers are still too high, the insulin you give is helping him process food better, and be healthier.

I hope you his his magic right dose soon, but know that you're doing an amazing thing for him already, by giving him the insulin he needs.
Click to expand...
Hi Madrona, was it under the recommendation of you vet that you went from high dose to get to lower ones ? I find special that Leda didn't
went in hypo starting at 4 units :nailbiting: This is the slgs in reverse :)
 
Woodsywife said:
Yes, that is why you need to get the numbers lower. Unlike humans, in cats the pancreas can heal. I follow SLGS (not to the letter) for various reasons. Maybe if I had know about protocols (any of them) when I got Smokey things might be different today. Now with his heart, I'm cautious. The cardiologist says his heart issues are from prolonged diabetes. Whether or not that's true I don't know, or if there is a way to prove it. Smokey has been diabetic 6 yrs. About 4 yrs in, I found out he wasn't getting his insulin for quite sometime. I honestly never thought remission is possible for him. However, being regulated is and that is what we are striving for. I have made numerous mistakes and will probably make more. But in the two years I've had him, we hardly see any red numbers now and the pink numbers are fewer. A blue number does make him bounce to a pink number. His bounces clear quicker. Just a few weeks back he had a good run over 24 hrs of blue numbers. Probably won't see that again for awhile. All this is progress. It takes time.

Focus on getting numbers lower now, it will help getting the poisoning as you call it out of his body and start the healing process and stop damage to other organs.

Are you aware you can do TR and switch later if you decide it's not for you? I didn't know that, when I did Smokey was already was having other medical issues.
Click to expand...
No I didn't, this is something I would have had to scrutinized. Guess TR could be an ice breaker so you can then have a smoother ride after.
TR full time would be hard but for breaking this ''vicious cycle'' it would be a good investment. SLGL is improving things but way too slowly for my reassurance.
 
I found my 2 week old Lantus was not working when the numbers went high. I went to the expense of getting a new pen when I questioned it. All went to normal with the new pen almost immediately.
 
Photorecon said:
Hi Madrona, was it under the recommendation of you vet that you went from high dose to get to lower ones ? I find special that Leda didn't
went in hypo starting at 4 units :nailbiting: This is the slgs in reverse :)
Click to expand...
Yeah we definitely did things backwards :eek:. The vet started Leda high, but on a shorter acting non-depot insulin. I was just testing a little (2 hours after shot primarily), so when the numbers didn't look right he upped the dose a whole unit, and when we switched to Lantus he told me to use the same dose (I found this site around that time)--Leda bounced a lot, and I guess sometimes that is one of the ways that too much insulin can work--instead of hypo'ing the cat's liver panics as the BG drops and instead of getting to o.k. numbers they just bounce. But every cat is different and some cats probably would have dropped waay too low on that dose. Had I known then what I know now, I would have probably freaked out :nailbiting:. Folks here straightened us out, and the vet agreed that a lowered dose was a good idea, and since then I started testing a lot more and Leda's been earning reductions. Doing SLGS or TR from a lower dose is much, much safer, and I think it probably would have gotten Leda to the right dose faster, since it looks like his right dose is closer to the bottom than that 3-4 he started on! We were very lucky. SK is lucky too, you're bringing him safely to a dose that works for him.
 
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...ion-possible-with-a-full-time-job-yes.129378/

You test one hour before you leave in the morning (in case you need to test again once more before you go), and then at the minimum 2-3 times at night. Say 6 am, 6pm, 8pm, 10pm. Something like that.

Once you get to know your cat, you could get down to 3 tests a day on boring days (numbers always the same) but on the weekend or when you have some time, grab tests throughout the day (11am, 1pm, 3pm). Build lots of data when you are home and able to.

I notice you use the Alpha Trak. For cheaper strips, you can get a free meter from https://www.accu-chek.com/microsites/accuracy/offer.html - they're in Quebec like you! Mine shipped to Toronto in 3 days and the strips are $60 for 100 test strips. I use the Accu Ckek or the Verio One Touch depending. The Alpha Trak got too expensive for me with TR tests.
 
Photorecon said:
Salty, you're right on target, this is what I feel. I know numbers will be deadly, if there was yellow I would test like mad
knowing it's time for action. But when flirting purple is a dream what's the urgency ? Even if you test every 30 min
you know when dropping will happens and it's mostly not after 1h, it's 4-5h.. I had 200 strips no longer then a few weeks
ago, reserve is now cut by haft. Plus, I don't feel testing after meal is representative of reality, results you get is food being
transformed into sugar

TR is another story, THERE test is valuable / essential. Might have to break this vicious cycle by harder dose increase if
I dont want to have a cat that is a like a car battery, filled with acid.
Click to expand...

Okay, you don't need to test like crazy and take action if you have yellow, pink or red numbers. Once you learn when the insulin kicks in and starts to lower him, you will know when and how often to test.

Smokey is infamous for going from high PS 300's to 40 in 2 1/2 - 3 hrs after injection when the insulin kicks in. So now I test at @ +3-4 hrs every day. Also his behaviour will tell me if I need a test in between. He will relentlessly hit me or all of a sudden get up from sleeping and run into where his food bowl is.

I have multiple cats. All on low carb wet (highest being 5% carbs). Two of them still eat dry food also. Dry food is up on counter where Smokey can't get it. If it is put down, I stand there until they are done so Smokey doesn't get it. I use an auto feeder for Smokey. The other two don't like his food for the most part and leave it alone. If Smokey gets their wet food it's okay because it's still low carb. They are all on the same schedule, they learned and adjusted to it.

Develop a routine, they will adjust.
 
Suzanne Kostenko said:
I found my 2 week old Lantus was not working when the numbers went high. I went to the expense of getting a new pen when I questioned it. All went to normal with the new pen almost immediately.
Click to expand...

I would have to be very bad lucked, this is a brad new pen, scrapped one up 2-3 weeks ago :(
 
saltycat said:
I could be wrong, please correct me if I am, but until the numbers drop a little, super frequent testing will not be as useful.
Click to expand...
That is probably true but right now there is no testing during the AM cycles so it's hard to know how low the dose is taking him. At the very least a +5 0r +6 test during the daytime is necessary so that perhaps SK could get on TR and accelerate getting his numbers down.
 
Woodsywife said:
He will relentlessly hit me or all of a sudden get up from sleeping and run into where his food bowl is
Click to expand...
GOTCHA ! Some time, not always, but right in the middle of the night, when it's out of ''regular'' timing Small Kitty goes
in the bedroom and meow like mad. My feel was the the feeder had trigger hungriness and he wasn't happy with the
quantity (very little) but it's right in the middle of the night when I'm sleeping tight. Might worth waking up and
check.

Then what ? Will this give the lowest nadir to know by how unit to increase ?
 
Photorecon said:
GOTCHA ! Some time, not always, but right in the middle of the night, when it's out of ''regular'' timing Small Kitty goes
in the bedroom and meow like mad. My feel was the the feeder had trigger hungriness and he wasn't happy with the
quantity (very little) but it's right in the middle of the night when I'm sleeping tight. Might worth waking up and
check.

Then what ? Will this give the lowest nadir to know by how unit to increase ?
Click to expand...

Yes it would be worth checking. Especially if it the 5-7 hrs after injection. Lantus nadir is (but not always) is +5-+7.

How many hours after evening injection is your bedtime? Always good to get a test before you go to bed. Then you know if SK will be holding steady or will possibly drop to low overnight.
 
I'm going to suggest a testing schedule that would at least allow you to get started with TR.
  1. Get an amps
  2. If you could change your shot time so that you could get a +1 or +2
  3. Get the petstore guys to get at least one test midcycle (you will need to give them instructions on what to do if SK tests low)
  4. If you get home early (grab a +10 or +11
  5. pmps
  6. always get some tests in the pm cycle (at the very least one a +1 +2 or +3)(generally you have been doing a good job with this, but occaisionally you don't get any in)
  7. and get a before bed test
That would see you getting 5 more tests (in addition to your amps and pmps) on a routine basis. Then to gather more data you can get spot checks as and when you can.
eg
If you are up early grab a +11/+10 before amps (spot checks like these help build a picture)
If you get home early grab a test at +10 or+11 before your pmps
Then on days off you can try and fill in gaps.

What do you think? Is that something that could be workable for you?

Part of the problem with SLGS is that when you run the curve, is that if it happens to be on a day that SK is bouncing, it doesn't really give you much useful data, in so far as what to do with the dose. It's possible that SK was just high and flat, or it is possible she is bouncing from low numbers which you are not seeing because of the big gap in the daytime testing, it's impossible to tell and therefore very difficult to know what to do with the dose.
 
Woodsywife said:
Yes it would be worth checking. Especially if it the 5-7 hrs after injection. Lantus nadir is (but not always) is +5-+7.

How many hours after evening injection is your bedtime? Always good to get a test before you go to bed. Then you know if SK will be holding steady or will possibly drop to low overnight.
Click to expand...

Regular sleep time used to be 19h, 1h afer shot time. Now +3 is auto feed time so test would be testing food being processed.
At +5 I'm sleeping and if it's not the case I'll have 6h of sleep time (too little). Small Kitty start crying at +7-8 when he does.
If testing it would be while haft sleep haft wae :confused:
 
Just popping by to say to hang in there! I read all of your threads and I feel your pain.

At risk of not sounding like a broken record, it does take a minute to find the right dose. I didn't believe it when people told me, even consider the possibility of Carter being a high dose cat when he was only 2u and not responding, LOL! I was thinking he'd never stop bouncing. If you look at my SS, Carter was on a permanent bounce cycle until about 4 weeks ago. Blacks, reds, pinks all around! And any slight progress he made, just just bounced. I follow TR and finally upped him to 3 units - and then, magic happened! His number's improved drastically, and he has since been taking reductions left, right and centre and is now down to .25 units of insulin and has only been in blues and greens. ECID, but I was comparing Carter to every other well-regulated cat on this forum, thinking it would never happen to him or wondering why it wasn't happening as quickly as others.

I would highly suggest TR if you can manage it, because I think like SK, Carter would have still been showing high numbers as it did take a while to find "his" dose and if I was following SLGS, it would have taken much longer.

Best of luck.
 
Gill & George said:
Part of the problem with SLGS is that when you run the curve, is that if it happens to be on a day that SK is bouncing, it doesn't really give you much useful data
Click to expand...
Right on, and this is what's happening after each new dose. I'm gathering data from bounce not that useful for global picture.
But I agree that checks out of the regular routine would fill out blank spots.

A pmps +11 is possible : no help needed
A amps +1 is possible : no help needed
Mid cycle : will need some charitable spirits

Thing is, what if I pretty sure a +11 would be the same as the next test, and I notice it is ?
Does it worth keeping on gathering identical results ? Would the +1 test be glucose from food processing ?
 
The +11 can be useful when you are faced with a lower than normal pre shot.
For example
  • if your amps is 100 but your +11 was 70, you know that SK numbers are on the way up and that his numbers are likely to be higher by the time the insulin onsets (around +2-+3) When faced with a lower than usual PS what's important to understand is where those numbers are heading.
  • If however your ps is 100 but your +11 is 130 then you can see that the numbers are falling, this may be because you are getting a little longer duration or it may be that a bounce is clearing, shooting a falling number is not a problem, but it is likely to be a cycle that you will want to monitor closely, as if SK is still falling when you hit onset you can get quite a dip in numbers so if you can't you can make the decision at shot time to shoot a token dose, skip, do 18 hour back to back cycles, leave HC food out for SK, these are all valid strategies and you will learn over time which one will suit you and SK best.
In answer to your question whether a +11 will be the same as the next, some days it will and some days it won't and most days it will give you valuable info on how SK cycles are shaping up. If you were able to test at other times then I would say mix it up, but as you are not in that situation, if you can get the +11 get it, I guarantee that SK will surprise you from time to time, our kitties are nothing if unpredictable when it comes to FD and their BG, just when you think you have them figured out they mix it up.

The +1 will often show a glucose spike, but sometimes, when they are having an active cycle, you might see them drop at +1, with George if his +1 was significantly lower than his preshot then he often went for a dive early on. If it was about the same, he dropped, but not as dramatically, so if I was going out I would know what sort of food I had to leave out for him. If his +1 was lower I would give him some HC as I went out the door and leave soem HC/MC in the auto feeder, depending on where he was with his numbers. So again it's a useful test to get in the morning before you go to work as it can help you with your daily strategy to keep SK safe.

I think if you can find some charitable spirits to get those midcycles in then TR is feasible for sure.

Have you read the sticky on doing TR with a full time job, some very useful hints and tips there.
 
Erica & Carter said:
Just popping by to say to hang in there! I read all of your threads and I feel your pain.

At risk of not sounding like a broken record, it does take a minute to find the right dose. I didn't believe it when people told me, even consider the possibility of Carter being a high dose cat when he was only 2u and not responding, LOL! I was thinking he'd never stop bouncing. If you look at my SS, Carter was on a permanent bounce cycle until about 4 weeks ago. Blacks, reds, pinks all around! And any slight progress he made, just just bounced. I follow TR and finally upped him to 3 units - and then, magic happened! His number's improved drastically, and he has since been taking reductions left, right and centre and is now down to .25 units of insulin and has only been in blues and greens. ECID, but I was comparing Carter to every other well-regulated cat on this forum, thinking it would never happen to him or wondering why it wasn't happening as quickly as others.

I would highly suggest TR if you can manage it, because I think like SK, Carter would have still been showing high numbers as it did take a while to find "his" dose and if I was following SLGS, it would have taken much longer.

Best of luck.
Click to expand...

I'm so glad hearing it went well for Carter, he does, indeed, has had a deadly SS, sounds like Small Kitty but with some
green and blue. What I think is happening with slgs is that it's a permanent bounce for some cats.
Reading this : http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperglycemia was a killer. I try to look a current numbers,
not backward, but if you want to predict long term effect of high GL you got to look back. And what I'm looking,
with what's written on the petdiabetes wiki makes my blood run cold (at low GL) :).

Diabetes is something that has frightening me for years. You will never see me drink coke or anything high
in sugar, just afraid of having to test and shoot 20 times a day. And now what ? My cat is stuck with this nasty thing.
 
Sébastien, I know you have been referring to Wikipedia's pet diabetes page a lot, but I do want to mention that ANYONE can post there, and they can change what others have written, and don't have to prove they know what they're talking about. This Board is a peer review board, and 95% of the people that post here have experience with FD, most of us a LOT of experience, and anyone can check us out to see if we know what we're talking about - we have moderators that will call out anyone that gives bad info. I really feel you are just confusing yourself by continuing to refer to Wiki. I hope I don't offend you by saying this - it's just my opinion and given with genuine concern for you and SK.
 
Photorecon said:
If pancreas and
liver are ''beyond repair'' that basically mean life time insulin + poisoning.
Click to expand...

I just have to respond to this comment Sebastien.....Of course I still hold out hope that China may eventually go OTJ (we've had cats do it after up to 8 years I think) but realistically, I pretty much know she'll never make it

But I certainly wouldn't consider her life right now a "lifetime of insulin+poisoning"!! She's very healthy, her kidneys are in very good shape for a cat her age and she's living a good quality life.....and you can see by her spreadsheet that although she may end up on insulin the rest of her life, she's very tightly controlled.

Photorecon said:
This vicious circle eventually makes the pancreas stop producing insulin, creating complete insulin-dependence. This suppression of the pancreas appears to be permanent in all animals.
Click to expand...

In response to this....So what?? If China requires insulin for the rest of her life, that's what she needs. As I said above, I truly feel like she's probably going to be insulin dependent the rest of her life .....mostly because I think I didn't get her diagnosed soon enough to give her pancreas a chance to heal so there was just too much damage done for the beta cells to be able to come back

Photorecon said:
Glucose toxicity[10] -- oxidized tissue becomes insulin-resistant, causing high blood sugar, which oxidizes tissues further.
Click to expand...

Glucose toxicity isn't anything like having battery acid flowing through SK's body....it is something we are aware of and the best way to fight it is to raise the insulin dose as soon as possible when you know it's not doing a good job holding down the glucose. If you can get SK onto TR, that's the best way to fight glucose toxicity....all it really means is that the longer you hold a dose that's not working, the more SK's body gets used to living at that higher BG level ...which means it could take longer and more insulin to "break through" and get her numbers coming down.

We've discussed trying TR with you before, but with your health problems and your work schedule, you never thought it was something you could do (especially since you have a seizure disorder that means you need to get a certain amount of sleep!) We've suggested trying to get up earlier so you'd be able to get a +2 before you left for work but you weren't sure you could get home in time (If I remember right) That +2 is a great test if you can work it out though because it can almost act like a "crystal ball" and tell you what SK's blood glucose is going to do later in the cycle!! In the "TR with a full time job" thread, there are lots of people who used the +2 to make decisions on what to leave down during the day to keep their cats safe while they were at work.

I truly hope you can get those 20 year olds to help you out because it would be a perfect solution to get SK onto TR and hopefully start getting those numbers down!

Edited to add...I totally agree with @Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey too....please stop reading so much Wiki....any fool can say anything on Wiki...it doesn't mean it's true, helpful or relevant.
 
Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey said:
Sébastien, I know you have been referring to Wikipedia's pet diabetes page a lot, but I do want to mention that ANYONE can post there, and they can change what others have written, and don't have to prove they know what they're talking about. This Board is a peer review board, and 95% of the people that post here have experience with FD, most of us a LOT of experience, and anyone can check us out to see if we know what we're talking about - we have moderators that will call out anyone that gives bad info. I really feel you are just confusing yourself by continuing to refer to Wiki. I hope I don't offend you by saying this - it's just my opinion and given with genuine concern for you and SK.
Click to expand...

From certain people I get offended very quickly but not here. You and anybody else here have been using words I didn't like, just met
nice members with lots of good intentions and showing they are there to help, and DO help you.

Thing is that if you want to find objective view (good and bad), some site will present both sides. Those wiki sites
are no perfection, for sure, but they present a ''wide'' range of idea. If our home page was talking about oxidation and
kidney attack most will simply run to their vet and make the irreversible. Most information sources are there to keep
people in semi cloud state of mind, that things will get better with time. The what if ? was intriguing me, what's under
this what seems to be a beautiful and comfortable bed. So this is why I digg a bit, I would prefer the Lantus stick is not
an external organ because of my lack of action. And action there will be.
 
Last edited:
Photorecon said:
She's running almost with no insulin and green all the
way.
Click to expand...

She's been on a higher dose than SK is now....before her last dental she was on almost 3 units but we were able to reduce almost a whole unit after this last dental

I still have no idea why either!! Her first 2 dentals I had hoped would help with her regulation and they didn't, so I didn't hold out much hope for this last one and then she earned several reductions pretty quickly!!

Gotta love these kitties and the surprises they have for us!! ;):banghead::cat:
 
Gill & George said:
The +11 can be useful when you are faced with a lower than normal pre shot.
For example
  • if your amps is 100 but your +11 was 70, you know that SK numbers are on the way up and that his numbers are likely to be higher by the time the insulin onsets (around +2-+3) When faced with a lower than usual PS what's important to understand is where those numbers are heading.
  • If however your ps is 100 but your +11 is 130 then you can see that the numbers are falling, this may be because you are getting a little longer duration or it may be that a bounce is clearing, shooting a falling number is not a problem, but it is likely to be a cycle that you will want to monitor closely, as if SK is still falling when you hit onset you can get quite a dip in numbers so if you can't you can make the decision at shot time to shoot a token dose, skip, do 18 hour back to back cycles, leave HC food out for SK, these are all valid strategies and you will learn over time which one will suit you and SK best.
In answer to your question whether a +11 will be the same as the next, some days it will and some days it won't and most days it will give you valuable info on how SK cycles are shaping up. If you were able to test at other times then I would say mix it up, but as you are not in that situation, if you can get the +11 get it, I guarantee that SK will surprise you from time to time, our kitties are nothing if unpredictable when it comes to FD and their BG, just when you think you have them figured out they mix it up.

The +1 will often show a glucose spike, but sometimes, when they are having an active cycle, you might see them drop at +1, with George if his +1 was significantly lower than his preshot then he often went for a dive early on. If it was about the same, he dropped, but not as dramatically, so if I was going out I would know what sort of food I had to leave out for him. If his +1 was lower I would give him some HC as I went out the door and leave soem HC/MC in the auto feeder, depending on where he was with his numbers. So again it's a useful test to get in the morning before you go to work as it can help you with your daily strategy to keep SK safe.

I think if you can find some charitable spirits to get those midcycles in then TR is feasible for sure.

Have you read the sticky on doing TR with a full time job, some very useful hints and tips there.
Click to expand...
Chris & China said:
She's been on a higher dose than SK is now....before her last dental she was on almost 3 units but we were able to reduce almost a whole unit after this last dental

I still have no idea why either!! Her first 2 dentals I had hoped would help with her regulation and they didn't, so I didn't hold out much hope for this last one and then she earned several reductions pretty quickly!!

Gotta love these kitties and the surprises they have for us!! ;):banghead::cat:
Click to expand...


Chris & China said:
She's been on a higher dose than SK is now....before her last dental she was on almost 3 units but we were able to reduce almost a whole unit after this last dental

I still have no idea why either!! Her first 2 dentals I had hoped would help with her regulation and they didn't, so I didn't hold out much hope for this last one and then she earned several reductions pretty quickly!!

Gotta love these kitties and the surprises they have for us!! ;):banghead::cat:
Click to expand...
Chris & China said:
She's been on a higher dose than SK is now....before her last dental she was on almost 3 units but we were able to reduce almost a whole unit after this last dental

I still have no idea why either!! Her first 2 dentals I had hoped would help with her regulation and they didn't, so I didn't hold out much hope for this last one and then she earned several reductions pretty quickly!!

Gotta love these kitties and the surprises they have for us!! ;):banghead::cat:
Click to expand...

Christine (sorry if I'm disclosing your name), I'm thinking about spending what's needed for a dental, are you saying this could make numbers coming down ?
 
Photorecon said:
I'm thinking about spending what's needed for a dental, are you saying this could make numbers coming down ?
Click to expand...

Yes, it's possible!! Having bad teeth can cause the numbers to be higher than they'd be with a healthy mouth!! Any infection, inflammation or pain (all of which can happen with just one bad tooth) can keep the blood glucose numbers high!

And everyone knows my name is Chris...and I'm pretty sure they know I'm female, so Christine is my name!!....although the only person other than you that calls me Christine these days is my mother....LOL

You can just call me Chris like everybody else :)
 
Ok, here we are. I'm just back from the pet food store, they are ok to help (I propose, after I knew they were
takers :)) compensation, but they say the would do it for free. So I have 3 ''kids'' available on rotation, I don't
want to ask to much so 1 mid cycle test would be fine. Question is to know WHEN ? I told them
it was to be between 11 to 14h (+5 to +8). Would there be a more lucrative time for day time
data gathering ?.

Could someone help me out building an effective test schedule for TR ? As a startup plan to
be adjusted (by myself or with the the help of other).
 
Photorecon said:
Ok, here we are. I'm just back from the pet food store, they are ok to help (I propose, after I knew they were
takers :)) compensation, but they say the would do it for free. So I have 3 ''kids'' available on rotation, I don't
want to ask to much so 1 mid cycle test would be fine. Question is to know WHEN ? I told them
it was to be between 11 to 14h (+5 to +8). Would there be a more lucrative time for day time
data gathering ?.

Could someone help me out building an effective test schedule for TR ? As a startup plan to
be adjusted (by myself or with the the help of other).
Click to expand...

At the moment I shoot at 6, leave at 7, arrive barely after 5pm, shoot at 6 and then, as a ice breaker
to bring GL down, can do test until 10 (+4). Could also test when SK will start his night meowing.
Would be haft awake, haft sleeping but will be right back to bed for deep sleep.

All this in the hope of getting back to SLGL when GL goes down.
 
Chris & China said:
I just have to respond to this comment Sebastien.....Of course I still hold out hope that China may eventually go OTJ (we've had cats do it after up to 8 years I think) but realistically, I pretty much know she'll never make it

But I certainly wouldn't consider her life right now a "lifetime of insulin+poisoning"!! She's very healthy, her kidneys are in very good shape for a cat her age and she's living a good quality life.....and you can see by her spreadsheet that although she may end up on insulin the rest of her life, she's very tightly controlled.



In response to this....So what?? If China requires insulin for the rest of her life, that's what she needs. As I said above, I truly feel like she's probably going to be insulin dependent the rest of her life .....mostly because I think I didn't get her diagnosed soon enough to give her pancreas a chance to heal so there was just too much damage done for the beta cells to be able to come back



Glucose toxicity isn't anything like having battery acid flowing through SK's body....it is something we are aware of and the best way to fight it is to raise the insulin dose as soon as possible when you know it's not doing a good job holding down the glucose. If you can get SK onto TR, that's the best way to fight glucose toxicity....all it really means is that the longer you hold a dose that's not working, the more SK's body gets used to living at that higher BG level ...which means it could take longer and more insulin to "break through" and get her numbers coming down.

We've discussed trying TR with you before, but with your health problems and your work schedule, you never thought it was something you could do (especially since you have a seizure disorder that means you need to get a certain amount of sleep!) We've suggested trying to get up earlier so you'd be able to get a +2 before you left for work but you weren't sure you could get home in time (If I remember right) That +2 is a great test if you can work it out though because it can almost act like a "crystal ball" and tell you what SK's blood glucose is going to do later in the cycle!! In the "TR with a full time job" thread, there are lots of people who used the +2 to make decisions on what to leave down during the day to keep their cats safe while they were at work.

I truly hope you can get those 20 year olds to help you out because it would be a perfect solution to get SK onto TR and hopefully start getting those numbers down!

Edited to add...I totally agree with @Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey too....please stop reading so much Wiki....any fool can say anything on Wiki...it doesn't mean it's true, helpful or relevant.
Click to expand...

I got my helpers Christine, all is needed is instructions and briefing (to give them)! One is coming here tomorrow, she loves kitties :)
 
OK.....here's a schedule to try (and others may have some other ideas)

  • 6am....Test/Feed/Shoot
  • 7am...occasionally get a +1 if you can....Not necessary to get every day but will give you an idea of how much of a food spike he gets
  • sometime between 11am-1pm, have one of your "helpers" test....if they are "flexible", we may ask for other tests later on instead of +5 to +7
  • 5pm...occasionally get a +11...especially if the numbers have been going down all day

  • 6pm...Test/Feed/Shoot
  • 8pm...get a +2 ...this can help to give you an idea of what he might do later in the cycle....depending on the +2
  • 10pm....get your "before bed" test....and IF necessary, you may need to set an alarm to get other tests in later
  • middle of night when you get up to answer "the call of the wild"
 
c23_rah.gif
Yeah! We've got a plan. You are a good Daddy Sebastien! We are all on Team Small Kitty cheering you and him on. Tell Big Brother we are cheering him on too so he doesn't feel left out. :)
 
:facepalm: ''Ensure the ear is really warm– this is key!'' oups, this is something I remember being told a while back
but had completely forgotten.. I press, get a good pressure, pock, squeeze and wipe the drop.
Will need to be a good example as a test master :cool:

Ho, BTW Bobbie, Small kitty is almost nil at Ketone, 0.3 + tennis ball size urine spot + he's holding
it strong on a fight with his brother. No tweak back legs in Small Kitty like said on the internet as a
long therm effect of diabetes :cat:
 
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