? Assistance with Vetsulin Needed - ? too high a dose

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scoobydoox said:
Why not just buy a human meter with the cheaper strips and save some money?
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Because as of now both my kitties are in remission. If those numbers start going up you better believe I will save my strips for readings to give my vet and get a human meter for my use.

And depending upon the cost of the strips, and seeing how walmart is 40 miles away, and amazon delivers right to my door I might stay with my alphatrax 2
 
Ok... Tux is now eating his regular food, with 3 drops of Blood Sugar Gold.

(((Has anyone tried Blood Sugar Gold? It has many wonderful reviews and some bad reviews.... don't know yet if it works)))
 
Kako, have you decided on what to do as far as his insulin tonight?

You can reduce the dose to 1 or 2u or even just give .5u if you are feeling real uneasy but since you are not testing for ketones yet, it would be best to give him at least a token dose. You can skip the insulin but with those high numbers he's been getting it might not be the best decision. As said above, you hold the syringe and must do what you are comfortable with.

The Blood Sugar Gold is not going to bring his numbers down overnight and I seriously doubt it would do anything even if given for the long term.
 
Tux didn't like smell of the Blood Sugar Gold! He hardly ate, so I gave him another bowl just regular food in it.
Then gave 2 units insulin.

I have been sleeping with him on the couch, touching him all night, to keep eye on him. I will do so tonight again.
 
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Kako said:
Tux didn't like smell of the Blood Sugar Gold!
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If the Blood Sugar Gold works even close to how the manufacturer claims, that might not be a bad thing as you're not currently able to test Tux's BG level. It's a fairly big claim and I have no proof whatsoever that it's accurate, but for tonight I'd say better to be safe than sorry and wait until you have new test strips before adding anything like this. The manufacturer claims that Blood Sugar Gold may heighten the effect of blood-sugar-lowering drugs. Monitor blood sugar levels closely if administering the product with blood-sugar-lowering drugs.
 
scoobydoox said:
Nevermind here is vet info from @billysmom

I might have a vet referral for you. I just called a friend in Eugene that has a cat. Her cat is not diabetic but she loves her vet and has been going to her for about 20 years. The vet's name is Dr Samsell. She is the owner of the practice, Cat Care Limited on Willamette St. It's a cat only practice. You should call them and ask about their experience with feline diabetes, if they support home testing, what type of insulin they recommend, etc. I hope this helps!

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I sent a message to the reffered Dr. asking some questions. Thank you for taking time to call your Eugene friend. :)
 
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@ Kako In case you are not getting alerts of updates on your threads, I wanted to refer you to your Welcome forum thread because a moderator from another support board with lots of experience with your insulin has provided a very clear concise explanation of what was happening with Tux.
 
Kako said:
I sent a message to the reffered Dr. asking some questions. Thank you for taking time to call your Eugene friend. :)
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No problem! I just saw her last weekend, which is why I thought about her to ask. It's a cat only practice, so I hope that's a possitive. My friend said there's another vet in the practice but they've only seen them once. They like Dr Samsell. I hope it works out for you. Also, if this doesn't work out, check OSU vet school. Perhaps they have a study going on or can give a referral. I know it's a bit of a drive, but could be a fallback. Let me know how it goes.
 
billysmom (GA) said:
No problem! I just saw her last weekend, which is why I thought about her to ask. It's a cat only practice, so I hope that's a possitive. My friend said there's another vet in the practice but they've only seen them once. They like Dr Samsell. I hope it works out for you. Also, if this doesn't work out, check OSU vet school. Perhaps they have a study going on or can give a referral. I know it's a bit of a drive, but could be a fallback. Let me know how it goes.
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I didn't hear back from the Dr. but I spoke with a receptionist. Insulin what they have is Prozinc, some clients do home BG tests. Other than that clear answers weren't given. There are three doctors at the place and it depends on Dr. and Tux's condition. I was recommended to see a Dr. to find if the place would fit us. It would cost $52 so I will wait until next time Tux needs to see a Dr.
 
Kako, I know you don't like that number but don't sweat it! You didn't test last night or this morning before his shots and it doesn't appear there were any mid-day tests today so we still don't know how low the 2u is taking him. He may be bouncing which is quite normal and takes up to 3 days (6 cycles to clear). If you can get the suggested +2, +3 and +4 post shot tests in tonight it should give you a better idea of what's happening with Tux.
 
If tux were mine I would give 2u now, feed then get test at +2 +3 and +4 tonight so you know what his numbers are doing.

ETA. Yes Scoobydoox is correct, test, feed at least 30 minutes before shot, then shoot. I am sorry I messed that up. When mine were getting Novolin I would shoot while they were feeding and I had to switch my habit the last week of giving insulin.
 
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Kako said:
no more snacking (his regular dry food) tonight, right?
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Do you usually leave out dry food overnight? If so, then do that tonight. We don't want to muddy the waters by changing his diet right now and the higher carb dry food will give him something to bring his numbers up if he is going lower than he should. We have to figure out the dose, then change his diet.
 
Mum of two felines said:
He ate correct? And what meter are you using? Could we get you to put that in your signature along with the type of food you're feeding?
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Yes, he ate correct. The meter is AlphaTRAK2. Food is Taste of the Wild (dry). I need advice when to switch to wet food. So please add those info. Thank you!
 
People with experience in vetsulin should really be answering Kako. I only have 20 days exp with it. Feeding 30min before shot is a must though. Switching to wet food needs to be gradual while you are testing and keep the dose at the 2 units. Are you still going to a new vet and trying to get lantus Kako?
 
scoobydoox said:
People with experience in vetsulin should really be answering Kako. I only have 20 days exp with it. Feeding 30min before shot is a must though. Switching to wet food needs to be gradual while you are testing and keep the dose at the 2 units. Are you still going to a new vet and trying to get lantus Kako?
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MrworfMens and Tuxedo Mom has had experience helping kitties on all types of insulin. They would tag other members if they felt they needed more help.
 
@scoobydoox you are correct that the routine should be to feed, wait 30 minutes and then shoot and I believe that is what Kako is doing. As for the diet, we do NOT want to change it right now because we are trying to determine if Tux is getting too much or too little insulin. Until we get more mid cycle tests, there is a suspicion of Somogyi which means Tux may be dropping too low and then bouncing. So until we figure out what the problem is, it's best to not make any diet change because lower carb food could put Tux in danger. Once we figure out what dose works for Tux on his current diet, then the diet can be changed gradually.
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
Do you usually leave out dry food overnight? If so, then do that tonight. We don't want to muddy the waters by changing his diet right now and the higher carb dry food will give him something to bring his numbers up if he is going lower than he should. We have to figure out the dose, then change his diet.
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I used to leave the food all day and night. Total made correct amount per day.
He was allowed to eat morning and night before insulin for 10 days while I was following what the vet says.
Last couple days (since I found this board) I am leaving the food until we go to bed (11pm-midnight), and making sure he doesn't eat 2 hours before morning test.
He can go either way. He ate pretty good amount tonight before insulin. (He ate and munched)
I've been with him, and sleep with him head to head, so I can notice and give him honey in case he shows extream low BG.
 
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This was a post @Nederland posted. She has a lot of experience with Caninsulin:

"In the Netherlands we have lots of experience with caninsulin. I've been moderating a forum for diabetic cats for 18 months now, and have learned quite a bit (not yet all, though).

The lowest point with vetsulin (if it is the same as caninsulin) is between +3 and (sometimes) +6, but mostly around +4 or +4.5. Caninsulin is designed tot act fast and has a first peak around the mentioned +4, and after that a second peak at +6/+7. The numbers tend not to rise back quickly, but stay in the 'low' numbers for a couple of hours. Not all cats do that second peak (peak as in peak of the working of the insulin).
Dogs have the lowest point around +6, and some vets think cats are dogs. They are not. A test of a cat 6 hours after the shot is NOT a good base to make decisions on about the dose.

But first needs to be determined whether the dose is too high or too low. If there is a Somogyi effect, the drop will be very fast, and the rising again will also be very fast, to very high numbers. If the 3 units was too much for a longer time, the numbers will hardly or not drop at all (insulin resistance).
You home test apparently. Could you please test the preshot value, a +2, +3 and a +4?"

Her suggestions on testing are very important to get a good idea of how fast and well the insulin is working
 
@scoobydoox many of us would like a list of members using each type of insulin so that when we are unsure of how to advice someone, we can tag/collaborate. Unfortunately we don't have a lot of Vetsulin users so there isn't always someone available. Those of us with some but not a lot of experience try to help and do so with excess caution erring on the side of safety. The dose Kako is giving was given blessing by very experienced Vetsulin people yesterday and today as was the decision not to change the diet just yet. The high level principles of figuring out if the dose is too high or too low are not that different between the insulins. I would not tell anyone to increase their Vetsulin dose because of my lack of experience but I would tell someone to skip a shot or lower the dose in specific situations where I thought a cat's safety was at stake.
 
MrWorfMen's Mom said:
@scoobydoox many of us would like a list of members using each type of insulin so that when we are unsure of how to advice someone, we can tag/collaborate. Unfortunately we don't have a lot of Vetsulin users so there isn't always someone available. Those of us with some but not a lot of experience try to help and do so with excess caution erring on the side of safety. The dose Kako is giving was given blessing by a very experienced Vetsulin people yesterday and today as was the decision not to change the diet just yet so. The high level principles of figuring out if the dose is too high or too low are not that different between the insulins. I would not tell anyone to increase their Vetsulin dose because of my lack of experience but I would tell someone to skip a shot or lower the dose in specific situations where I thought a cat's safety was at stake.
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Well said Linda. The main point is to do no harm. It is better to have a kitty stay high for a day or so until there is more data to justify dose changes, than to advise someone to increase or change feeding habits without the data and risk causing a hypo event.
 
Kako said:
I am leaving the food until we go to bed
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So you haven't been leaving food out overnight anymore and that is fine as long as you get a test before turning in at night so you can see how fast Tux's BG is falling and steer him if need be.
Kako said:
in case he shows extream low BG.
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Just be aware that some cats do not necessarily "show" any symptoms of low BG. Testing and knowing how your cat responds to insulin is key.
 
I was told (by the vet) to give insulin right after he ate. So I was doing so the first 10 days. Tonight I waited only a couple minutes after he ate the second time to be sure we have the time to do +2+3+4 test before we go to sleep.
Now on I will be sure to wait 30 minutes! :)
 
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I have only been around for a short while, and, Shaak has been in remission for over a month now, so obviously I did not deal with giving insulin for very long, however in a total emergency situation and if no one else better is around, I dealt with Shaak dropping really low a few times and with the great help I got here I became pretty good at getting her back up in safer numbers quick. So I wouldn't mind helping if it were ever needed. I have a pretty good idea on how to feed. I tend to lean towards lower doses if in doubt on the insulin, Shaak was actually on Novolin N and she would drop by +3 to 50 even on less than 1u. That however was after we switched her to wet FF from the terrible DM dry food the Dr gave us a prescription for. Her BG was really high on that stuff and would only drop to about 190 at the lowest on that food. Once we switched her to wet FF and she began dropping below 100 a lot we began to lower her dose, a few hours in we would notice she would crawl back up, but slower each time. She began dropping low enough that we decided it was time to try something different, so we skipped a shot when her previous PMBG was under 150 and fed her every three hours, so 8 small meals a day (we used a rotating battery operated feeder) and discovered she was dropping on her own one to two hours after she ate every time she ate. Once we completely changed over her feeding system to the mini meal every three hours she steadily began to have her BG drop lower and lower. Now OTJ she is always in the 55-68 range.

This is just my experience and certainly don't expect this to happen with Tux. However I have to say, the more diligent you can be, and I spent many a day napping in one hour increments 24 hours a day for a few weeks. It was worth it though. The attention I paid to Shaak got her into remission and I would suggest anyone try the mini meal idea.

Anyway, feel free to tag me anytime you want. I won't advise anything I don't know about, which includes telling someone to up a dose. I just don't know enough. I think I am pretty knowledgable on feeding during low numbers though.

Just my two cents.

extra note: I shot Shaak one hour after eating for every shot. It helped keep her from falling too low faster.

extra note: Never change diet if you are not testing!
 
Just as an example this is the spreadsheet of another newer member whose kitty is on Vetsulin. She has been doing testing at earlier hours. You can see that the preshot numbers AM & PM are all fairly high, but with the earlier testing times you will also see that her kitty dropped quite a bit in between.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...X4zlSydVp1lHXPfeLdxCUaLCc/edit#gid=1225352397

This is why testing in the earlier times when using Caninsulin/Vetsulin is very important.
 
Kako said:
I didn't hear back from the Dr. but I spoke with a receptionist. Insulin what they have is Prozinc, some clients do home BG tests. Other than that clear answers weren't given. There are three doctors at the place and it depends on Dr. and Tux's condition. I was recommended to see a Dr. to find if the place would fit us. It would cost $52 so I will wait until next time Tux needs to see a Dr.
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Tuxedo Mom said:
Good luck with your testing. I am off to bed for 4 hours sleep :( but I will check and see how you did in the morning. :bighug:
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Tuxedo Mom said:
Good luck with your testing. I am off to bed for 4 hours sleep :( but I will check and see how you did in the morning. :bighug:
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I will be writing the numbers on the spreadsheet. Good night! And thank you! :)
 
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