Cat - Not responding to insulin.

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Hi Brad

There is an allowable difference in meter readings of 20% so really those two numbers are the same thing. I would put the first one in because it looks a little prettier ;-) you can put both in if you want to put one then write retest and put the other, then you will just need to add the colour manually from the toolbar at the top of the ss.

Don't be disappointed if you don't see any fast action with the levemir Cat needs time to build up his shed.

Welcome aboard.

Serryn
 
Great job of testing last night Brad.

Levemir, like lantus, is an insulin that builds a depot or storage shed. The levemir binds to itself subcutaneously and then slow releases, binding again with albumin where it the slow releases into the blood. So levemir onset and nadir ( or peak action of the insulin) are different than the other long duration insulins.

Levemir "typically" onsets at +4 with a nadir anywhere from +8 to +12. Those are typical times but every cat is different. For example, my Gracie, who is on lev, onsets at about +8 and nadirs at +16. She has a very very different lev curve but it's worked really well for her. I'm not aware of any other lev cat who does this but never say never.

So in the next several cycles, you'll need to be testing at different times of the day so we can figure out when a pattern starts to develop....and it may take a few weeks to really see it. So today, I'd post his AMPS and then we can see where he is but I'm thinking a +3 and a +6 to start with if he's not very low at PS. Don't panic if his PS is a lot lower than when you went to bed.....he could be one of those that nadirs late.

Based on how his numbers are, we are discussing how quickly to increase his dose and will let you know. Since he's been on insulin, we can fast track his doses if we see the need.

Great job!

Is it possible for you to move over to the lantus tr ISG this morning please? We have several lev users there and it helps to have more eyes on him. Thanks Brad.
 
Marjorie and Gracie said:
Great job of testing last night Brad.

Levemir, like lantus, is an insulin that builds a depot or storage shed. The levemir binds to itself subcutaneously and then slow releases, binding again with albumin where it the slow releases into the blood. So levemir onset and nadir ( or peak action of the insulin) are different than the other long duration insulins.

Levemir "typically" onsets at +4 with a nadir anywhere from +8 to +12. Those are typical times but every cat is different. For example, my Gracie, who is on lev, onsets at about +8 and nadirs at +16. She has a very very different lev curve but it's worked really well for her. I'm not aware of any other lev cat who does this but never say never.

So in the next several cycles, you'll need to be testing at different times of the day so we can figure out when a pattern starts to develop....and it may take a few weeks to really see it. So today, I'd post his AMPS and then we can see where he is but I'm thinking a +3 and a +6 to start with if he's not very low at PS. Don't panic if his PS is a lot lower than when you went to bed.....he could be one of those that nadirs late.

Based on how his numbers are, we are discussing how quickly to increase his dose and will let you know. Since he's been on insulin, we can fast track his doses if we see the need.

Great job!

Is it possible for you to move over to the lantus tr ISG this morning please? We have several lev users there and it helps to have more eyes on him. Thanks Brad.
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I understand I will not see results right away and that's fine. I just hope he gets better.

As you suggested I posted in the lantus TR ISG. The link is here Thanks!
 
My cat is not responding, either. She is on Lantus twice daily. Prozinc did not work. It only brought her from 675 to the 500s. The Lantus brings her down to the high 400s. She eats Purina DM per the vet. I do see her suffering, losing weight no matter how much she eats. I did ask about letting her go and he said no. Keep trying. I think it is time for another vet. I changed jobs to only work 8 hour days rather than 12. I check her myself, sometimes every 2 hours when off work. I am an RN and feel totally helpless with her.
 
If you are really nervous about incremental doses, you can use a caliper to get the 'eyeball' dose exactly right. They aren't expensive and can be found on Amazon Prime and other online sites. Please do hometesting, yes! And while changing your kitty's food over to All Wet, watch closely...the difference in carbs will affect how much insulin he needs...or more importantly, doesn't need.

Everyone here is absolutely wonderful about giving great advice. Most have seen it all, done it all, themselves, before your arrival. You'll get valid opinions on insulins and their protocols, sneaky tricks to get your cat to eat, and solutions for just about every issue that crops up. Welcome to the FDMB, Brad!:bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Laurie Dansby said:
My cat is not responding, either. She is on Lantus twice daily. Prozinc did not work. It only brought her from 675 to the 500s. The Lantus brings her down to the high 400s. She eats Purina DM per the vet. I do see her suffering, losing weight no matter how much she eats. I did ask about letting her go and he said no. Keep trying. I think it is time for another vet. I changed jobs to only work 8 hour days rather than 12. I check her myself, sometimes every 2 hours when off work. I am an RN and feel totally helpless with her.
Click to expand...

It's good that you're here Laurie!! The people here do nothing but deal with feline diabetes so there's years of real life experience to help you learn how best to handle this disease

Is it the dry DM or the canned? If it's the dry, it's too high in carbs for a diabetic cat (and even though the canned DM is OK carb-wise, most cats get tired of eating the same thing and it's really nothing special....Most of us feed plain old Fancy Feast Classics or Friskies pates...check the ingredients....they're no better in the DM than they are in the "over the counter" cheaper foods.

What's important is to be feeding a canned or raw diet less than 10% carbs. Here's a great website on Feline Nutrition that includes a chart with the breakdown of Protein, Fat and Carbs

Please start a new post and tell us about your sugarcat! We really can help!! We have another RN who had a tough time understanding the difference between human and cat diabetes.....and her cat is now on an OTJ trial!! (Off The Juice!) @FRAN M.
 
Hi Brad and Welcome!
You are in the best place ever for a diabetic cat-
My guy is 16 and without they forum we would be lost in the fog!
The fact that you test is AWESOME!!
just for reference ranges vary even for the same drop of blood up to about 20%
You will drive yourself crazy rechecking -- if I get a really unexpected number I retest but otherwise I go with it-
welcome again and I won't overload you with more to read :cat::cat:
Keep asking questions as you go a you can see we are very enthusiastic to help!:bighug:
 
Laurie Dansby said:
My cat is not responding, either. She is on Lantus twice daily. Prozinc did not work. It only brought her from 675 to the 500s. The Lantus brings her down to the high 400s. She eats Purina DM per the vet. I do see her suffering, losing weight no matter how much she eats. I did ask about letting her go and he said no. Keep trying. I think it is time for another vet. I changed jobs to only work 8 hour days rather than 12. I check her myself, sometimes every 2 hours when off work. I am an RN and feel totally helpless with her.
Click to expand...
Hello Laurie!!!! I (and Elliott) were in HELL..because as a HCP..none of this made sense to me..I searched and researched for "solutions" and "answers". Finally, I simply followed the advice of FDMB members and Elliott is doing fine. Of course, my belief is that "somewhere in this world"..there is some expert that can make this treatment more predictable and easier to handle..To date..I found no answers. BUT, thanks to all of the "cat people" here..I am sleeping and Elliott is off the Insulin at this time!!! BTW..I have not taken Elliott back to the DVM since 1/20/2016 because we have followed advice/instructions right from the "experts" here!!!
 
BTW...Laurie..It is very important that you start your own thread asking for help..I had a very hard time learning all of the cat terminology, the charting, the "technicals" of the site...and still know very little. Chris (&China) and another member fixed my chart. They need to see your BG chart. I did not know how to make one. Mr Wolfman's mom? showed me how. Then, all of the members reminded me when I did not post things appropriately..their purpose being, "charting properly is the best way to get the attention of members ASAP".. As said, I still know very little but do not need to use the "911" alert on the threads lately. but I still use the "?"..Can you tell us all about your cat..signs/symptoms and tell the "expert" members everything you can think of. I sat here day and night on this site along with all of the FDMB members who were helping me 24/7...I am not a cat person but can offer the fact, When I arrived on this site on 1/1/2016, I was sooo upset that there was no real DVM concern over testing, BG results, etc...Hearing, "Don't worry. Elliott will be fine. Just don't test his BG but once a day.", drove me to the edge...Also, I worried that the FDMB members may not have the "know how" like my DVM, who in all dog situations is excellent....but THEY DO!!! Having had almost every serious med/surg problem with my (now) 8 dogs, I couldn't help but notice a big difference in "concern" over the cat..vs intense concern over every dog. As you know, there is a MD supervised plan for DM therapy in people and though I never worked med/surg..in the ER and L&D, we took insulin very seriously!!! You already know much more than I, about cats and the Feline DM plans.But, I want to give back..but can only mostly tell you what FDMB members, all told me." Take a breath,etc..We will be here to help you 24/7" Taking a breath didn't work for me but members are still caring for Elliott and..so far so good!!! (P.S...I can help with the following: Research, Worrying, and Second-guessing every possible thing imaginable) I look forward to reading about your cat!!!
 
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The good thing about this message board is that most of the members have "been there, done that", and nothing beats practical experience. It's all well and good to have 'book learning'..but book learning doesn't wake you in the middle of the night, when a beloved pet's precarious health throws you a curve. Book learning doesn't hold your hand. Only people who have lived through the trials of getting another species comfortable and on the way back to good health, truely understand the fear, anxiety, and eventual giddy joy that comes with 'getting it right', with their furry babes.

We learn together to see each problem as an opportunity to learn and overcome, and it's a whole new way for owners and pets to discover how important they are to each other. In the process, we owners rediscover the real meaning of love and loyalty. Everyone on this board is exceptional, smart, and determined. Newcomers couldn't be in better hands.
 
jayla-n-Drevon said:
Hi Brad and Welcome!
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Jut an FYI, Brad's last post on the board was 2012. This post was just bumped up by Laurie looking for support.

Laurie Dansby said:
My cat is not responding, either. She is on Lantus twice daily. Prozinc did not work. It only brought her from 675 to the 500s. The Lantus brings her down to the high 400s. She eats Purina DM per the vet. I do see her suffering, losing weight no matter how much she eats. I did ask about letting her go and he said no. Keep trying. I think it is time for another vet. I changed jobs to only work 8 hour days rather than 12. I check her myself, sometimes every 2 hours when off work. I am an RN and feel totally helpless with her.
Click to expand...

If you start a new post of your own, people might be able to find you easier and give you some ideas on how to help your kitty.

Is the DM you are feeding wet or dry? Despite vet advice, the dry DM is not good for diabetic cats and will keep their BGs higher because of the high carb content. Switching to an all wet low-carb diet can help tremendously. It will probably help her with the weight loss too. How much insulin are you giving and how quickly did you increase? Too much and not enough can both contribute to high numbers.

Read around the board, there are some great tips. Check out the Lantus support forum. The stickies there have a lot of valuable information.
 
Jeanne & Dottie said:
If you are really nervous about incremental doses, you can use a caliper to get the 'eyeball' dose exactly right. They aren't expensive and can be found on Amazon Prime and other online sites. Please do hometesting, yes! And while changing your kitty's food over to All Wet, watch closely...the difference in carbs will affect how much insulin he needs...or more importantly, doesn't need.

Everyone here is absolutely wonderful about giving great advice. Most have seen it all, done it all, themselves, before your arrival. You'll get valid opinions on insulins and their protocols, sneaky tricks to get your cat to eat, and solutions for just about every issue that crops up. Welcome to the FDMB, Brad!:bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
Click to expand...
Thank you! I am taking her to another vet Saturday. I am just tired of asking if he wants to try something else and him saying keep doing what you are doing. It isn't working. Right now she only eats dry. She quit eating the canned. I will try anything. I just checked her and she was 467. So, it is working some, I guess. I was looking at it like that before. It brought her from 675 to 467! I want labs drawn to make sure it hasn't affected her kidneys or liver.
 
Chris & China said:
It's good that you're here Laurie!! The people here do nothing but deal with feline diabetes so there's years of real life experience to help you learn how best to handle this disease

Is it the dry DM or the canned? If it's the dry, it's too high in carbs for a diabetic cat (and even though the canned DM is OK carb-wise, most cats get tired of eating the same thing and it's really nothing special....Most of us feed plain old Fancy Feast Classics or Friskies pates...check the ingredients....they're no better in the DM than they are in the "over the counter" cheaper foods.

What's important is to be feeding a canned or raw diet less than 10% carbs. Here's a great website on Feline Nutrition that includes a chart with the breakdown of Protein, Fat and Carbs

Please start a new post and tell us about your sugarcat! We really can help!! We have another RN who had a tough time understanding the difference between human and cat diabetes.....and her cat is now on an OTJ trial!! (Off The Juice!) @FRAN M.
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I do have some chicken and gravy Fancy Feast.
 
Chris & China said:
It's good that you're here Laurie!! The people here do nothing but deal with feline diabetes so there's years of real life experience to help you learn how best to handle this disease

Is it the dry DM or the canned? If it's the dry, it's too high in carbs for a diabetic cat (and even though the canned DM is OK carb-wise, most cats get tired of eating the same thing and it's really nothing special....Most of us feed plain old Fancy Feast Classics or Friskies pates...check the ingredients....they're no better in the DM than they are in the "over the counter" cheaper foods.

What's important is to be feeding a canned or raw diet less than 10% carbs. Here's a great website on Feline Nutrition that includes a chart with the breakdown of Protein, Fat and Carbs

Please start a new post and tell us about your sugarcat! We really can help!! We have another RN who had a tough time understanding the difference between human and cat diabetes.....and her cat is now on an OTJ trial!! (Off The Juice!) @FRAN M.
Click to expand...
I wondered if the food was helping. Without diabetic food she ends up with liquid stool and vomiting.
 
Laurie Dansby said:
I wondered if the food was helping. Without diabetic food she ends up with liquid stool and vomiting.
Click to expand...

Please start a new post so we can learn more about you and your sweet kitty

There's nothing special in the diabetic food, so if you're seeing a difference in stool, she may very well be allergic to some type of protein. The "prescription" foods are really garbage and especially the dry is just too high in carbs. Being a nurse, you know well how important it is to control the amount of carbs a human diabetic is eating....it's the same with our sugarcats!!
 
Chris & China said:
Please start a new post so we can learn more about you and your sweet kitty

There's nothing special in the diabetic food, so if you're seeing a difference in stool, she may very well be allergic to some type of protein. The "prescription" foods are really garbage and especially the dry is just too high in carbs. Being a nurse, you know well how important it is to control the amount of carbs a human diabetic is eating....it's the same with our sugarcats!!
Click to expand...
Yes. It isn't the DM causing those problems. I used to feed her Purina Indoor. I am going to the store after work tomorrow. Will get some more food then, and see if there is a difference. I may need to reschedule her Saturday appointment to give it a week.
 
Most of us here feed Friskies pates, Fancy Feast Classics or 9-Lives pates if we're on a budget but there are lots of other low carb options out there.

As long as you're feeding the dry DM, her numbers are going to be harder to control because it's just too high in carbs....almost all dry foods are. There are only 2 that are lower carb but we really like them on canned food because they need the extra water it provides to help protect their kidneys

Dry foods pull water from the body as well as being too high carb and actually cause dehydration.
 
I believe it. I was giving her dry in the morning but canned at night. She just quit eating it, I am sure because she had already been eating all day. Which would be better? The dry in the morning or the not so healthy Fancy Feast? Until I get to the store tomorrow night.
 
You mean the "Gravy" Fancy feast versus the dry?

I'd go ahead and give her the dry....You don't want to reduce the carbs too fast or you could send her too low, too quickly. We've seen cats go off dry food that dropped over 200 points. We even had one cat whose caretaker was sure wasn't able to jump up and get into the kibble she left out for her other cats, but one day decided to get all the dry out of the house...Her cat dropped from 5.5 units twice a day to zero....in about 36 hours!

It can be that powerful!!

We also have a spreadsheet we use here that's a very helpful tool. It helps us to be able to see trends that we look for that tell us if you might need to increase the dose. Here are Instructions on getting the FDMB spreadsheet

Again, PLEASE start a new post...just go to the top right of the page and click "Post New Thread" and let us start to learn about you and your kitty. This thread is over 4 years old.
 
Laurie D. said:
I am trying. Error message. I have tried typing everything under participants. It isn't having it.
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Are you looking here?
post new thread.PNG
 
:)Laurie, it may not be on your screen because you're looking for it while 'being' in someone else's posted thread. I just looked above at my own screen, at the area indicated by Chris, and I don't see a "start a new post, either". It's because I'm parked in another poster's (Brad's) thread.

Go completely out out of Brad's original post by clicking on the Feline Diabetes logo..it's the Gray kitty head in the upper left hand corner and you will enter the FDMB as if you are coming in here for the very first time. When you find yourself in the screen with the list of all forums available..click on the Feline Health forum you will see that "start a new post' button in the upper right-hand corner of your screen.:cat: It'll be there, I promise.:bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Thanks for the info! She is fine right now. I did cancel tomorrow's appointment, but do have some news. Will hopefully be able to add a new post.
 
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