update/need advice for Scout

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Kristin & Scout

Kristin & Scout

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I've been MIA lately, but overall okay. I'm kind of at a loss with Scout and his diabetes- it's very frustrating to lose/not be making any progress recently.

about Scout(currently):
-he's around/just under 14 lbs
-eating meals 2x daily (1 1/4 cans FF each meal, 2 1/2 cans daily) watered down with distilled water
-occasional "mini meal" or "snack" of watered down freeze dried chicken or beef liver (tried doing these 2x daily between each wet food meal because his hunger was out of control, but didn't see a difference in his #s)
-been checking for ketones occasionally,always come back less than trace
-indoor only
-regular play and exercise
-gets flea meds every month

besides being overly hungry and begging for food, he has seemed normal. no excessive peeing or anything, but his hunger has been crazy lately- he went nuts and ripped the drain out of the sink trying to find food. we've had to lock up and hide all food/scraps/leftovers because he would find his way into anything edible. it's a huge pain in the ass. i've caught him licking the inside of the kitchen sink, he's tried to get into the microwave. he knows how to open the toaster oven and cabinets. we have to do all our dishes and clean up the kitchen before we can even eat a meal because he knows how to open our doors by pulling down the handle so we can't lock him in another room (we've tried). he sits at his food bowl and screams at me almost all day, starting a couple hours after a meal (he is a siamese, so when i say he sits there and screams i mean he sits there and SCREAMS). he wakes me up at night begging for food, and he also wakes me up very early in the morning.

also, i have noticed that if i don't give him the freeze dried "mini meal" he will vomit up clear-ish bile, kind of like a hairless hairball. from what i've found on google it's because his stomach is too empty? so should i be increasing amount of food in his meals?

i am very confused about his numbers. i don't know if he is bouncing or if he needs more insulin. he seems to go high and flat. my boyfriend suggested quitting insulin cold turkey, but i don't know if that's an option because i don't want Scout's body to go into shock. i've tried reducing and increasing, but i can't figure out his cycle.

i'm trying to get a curve in today(every 2 hours or so), i know I've been really bad at checking midday recently. any advice would be appreciated because i really don't know what else i'm supposed to do!



oh and this morning i noticed a scab/blood on the back of his head. i'm not sure if this is putting him in distress or playing into his # being high, but it looks very fresh. i was slightly confused about the location, but i think its from him scratching himself with his hind legs (took me a while to realize he could reach that part of his head haha) i will attach a picture.
 

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I'm curious what the experts would say, but according to my fancy feast can, it says to feed one can/3.5 pounds, which means that at 14 pounds, he should be getting 4 cans/day. That might be why he's so hungry. Not getting enough food could also mess with his numbers. If you increase his food, does he gain too much weight? Are you trying to help him drop some weight? If not, and if those who know more than I, agree (they may say I'm totally wrong about this since I'm definitely not an expert) you might try increasing his good and see if it lowers his stress and helps out a bit.

I have a cry-er too, so I know how painful it can be to listen to kitty screams!
 
I was told to try decreasing his meals to about this portion, but it would make sense that he's not getting enough. he's holding steady at this weight so I don't think he's not getting enough, but from my understanding it was like the less he eats, the less insulin he would need for it to be effective. I might have misinterpreted that though.
 
Hey Kristen, the pet food cans always tell you more than you should give. The formula for calories needed for feeding is the cat's weight times 13.5 plus 70. So with Scout, it would be :
14 lbs X1 3.5 =259 calories a day. The FF are around 92-95 I believe. So that would be about 1 1 /3 cans a feeding. Just check your particular flavors of FF because they could be more than the two flavors I am feeding Bubba. Then just use that formula. I didn't look at your SS but, you said the numbers have been high lately. Until the numbers come down, he could be very hungry all the time. Bubba was I hungry all the time in the beginning and then it leveled out. Also, is the 14 lbs a good weight for Scout? And is he maintaining his weight with what you are feeding.
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
Hey Kristen, the pet food cans always tell you more than you should give. The formula for calories needed for feeding is the cat's weight times 13.5 plus 70. So with Scout, it would be :
14 lbs X1 3.5 =259 calories a day. The FF are around 92-95 I believe. So that would be about 1 1 /3 cans a feeding. Just check your particular flavors of FF because they could be more than the two flavors I am feeding Bubba. Then just use that formula. I didn't look at your SS but, you said the numbers have been high lately. Until the numbers come down, he could be very hungry all the time. Bubba was I hungry all the time in the beginning and then it leveled out. Also, is the 14 lbs a good weight for Scout? And is he maintaining his weight with what you are feeding.
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yes, he is maintaining his current weight. he is very long though so I think he could do with another lb or two? he doesn't look sickly, but definitely thin.

I'm not sure what I need to do to bring his numbers down. he goes high and flat, but sometimes I can't figure out if it's a bounce or not ?
 
Hi Kristen,

Sorry you and Scout are having a hard time. You have gotten some good advice about feeding and think you need to look at his weight, decide whether he needs to gain or lose and adjust. I would also consider feeding more often, adding warm water to make a gravy and make it seem like more food for him, if you aren't already. About less food and less insulin, it's true that if they are eating less, they may need less insulin. We do see cats dropping lower than usual when they are off their feed. But it is important they eat enough (and don't drive you crazy), so it's not part of the protocol. You need to adjust the insulin to the amount he needs to maintain a healthy weight.

Could you get a curve this weekend? It'd be good to know if he drops for nadir and how low or whether he is high and flat. One option is to use a sliding scale - giving more insulin for a pink preshot and less for a yellow. But first, you really need to know whether those pink pre shots are bounces or because the dose was too little.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Hi Kristen,

Sorry you and Scout are having a hard time. You have gotten some good advice about feeding and think you need to look at his weight, decide whether he needs to gain or lose and adjust. I would also consider feeding more often, adding warm water to make a gravy and make it seem like more food for him, if you aren't already. About less food and less insulin, it's true that if they are eating less, they may need less insulin. We do see cats dropping lower than usual when they are off their feed. But it is important they eat enough (and don't drive you crazy), so it's not part of the protocol. You need to adjust the insulin to the amount he needs to maintain a healthy weight.

Could you get a curve this weekend? It'd be good to know if he drops for nadir and how low or whether he is high and flat. One option is to use a sliding scale - giving more insulin for a pink preshot and less for a yellow. But first, you really need to know whether those pink pre shots are bounces or because the dose was too little.
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yes i add distilled water to his meals. i am getting a curve today currently at 296 at +4. we tried a sliding scale before and he didn't react to it properly- no one here could figure him out. his numbers are very confusing
 
Are you home during the day ... any day of the week? If you are at home, it would be most helpful to get a test during the day especially between +5 to +7. Can you do it on the days that you have off (if you work or go to school)? That would be in the middle of the 12 hour cycle. Do you have time before you go to bed, to get a test? This is only two extra tests during the day. With Prozinc, you need to know how low Scout goes in the middle of his cycle and his pre-shot test in the AM & PM. It impossible to give any dose advice without knowing that mid-cycle number. It is impossible to determine any sliding scale without knowing that mid-cycle number. Can you get any extra tests on a daily basis?
 
yes I can try to get a couple additional tests throughout the day.

can anyone look at scout's SS and help me understand what's happening today? I just tested at +8 and it's really high. I have been home so I know he hasn't gotten into anything or snuck food he shouldn't have..
 
Looks to me like 2 units was a little too little for the 447 and just didn't last long enough. Although 1.25 was enough for the same range on the 8th. Looks like he might be another Bubba, dancing to his own drummer. Check out Bobbi and Bubba's spreadsheet. He is very unpredictable too.

Maybe a little more data will give us an AHA.....
 
Hi, Krstin - I siddenly found myself thinking about you & Scout today, and found this thread. As it appears it's been a week since you last posted, wanted to know how Scout's numbers are ...??? (So sorry it's been such a struggle for you lately.:bighug:) Please let us hear from you, ok?
 
scout's numbers are still high and confusing. frustrating that i have no answers and just have to take it day by day, but nothing is getting better. i did up his food to 1 1/2 (3 oz) cans per meal and he's has filled out around his hind legs and looks a lot healthier (in my opinion) so that might play into why his numbers are still high, but i really have no idea what else i'm supposed to do to try to help him out.

also i just filled in his SS, which i have been slacking on for the last week
 
Have you been testing for ketones?
It really would be super-helpful to have some more mid-cycle tests to help give us a better idea what he's doing lately throughout his cycles; this could assist in determining how to best handle dosing.
Kristin & Scout said:
also, i have noticed that if i don't give him the freeze dried "mini meal" he will vomit up clear-ish bile, kind of like a hairless hairball.
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Hmmm ... is this still happening, Kristin? As one thing that occurred to me (and this may be a long shot) is that - although you've reported that he's not peeing excessively - you may want to make absolutely certain that he's peeing enough.

And the only reason I bring that up is that if there's any possibility he has a bladder infection/UTI you aren't aware of (and with those, sometimes you see a reduction in urine output; male cats can end up with their urethras blocked by "crystals"), something along those lines can inhibit you getting the BG#s down until any infection is cleared. I guess what made me think of this was that when Bat-Bat got her last UTI, what first alerted me was her gacking up golden-colored bile two or three different times* ... Like I said, this could be a long shot - but thought I should mention it just in case it's useful info in trying to troubleshoot this situation.

*There were also less damp spots in her litter box than usual.
 
i do check for ketones and it always come back less than trace (in original post at very top).

and he is peeing enough- normal sized clumps throughout the day, probably 4 times? sometimes maybe more. i will think it's a lot but i know it's because i water down his food with distilled water.

and the vomitting bile has calmed down- it almost seemed like he did it in protest when i didn't feed him the second he starts begging in the morning. but ever since i went from 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 can meals there hasn't been an episode. i think it had to do with his stomach being too empty?
 
Kristin & Scout said:
i think it had to do with his stomach being too empty?
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Could be, Kristin ...
maybe Scout is like one of those little kids who - if he doesn't get his way - can get himself so worked up that he barfs!:p (Really, I had a friend with a kid like that; thankfully, he grew out of that behavior.)

Well, sounds like you're doing all the right stuff. I'd say try to get some mid-cycle #s whenever you can; I think that could shed a little more light on the situation. Seems like you have him at a decent weight, though ... so he certainly is a puzzle at the moment. Will keep my fingers crossed that he lets you get in some more BG tests. (P.S. Scout may be a screamer, but every time I look over at him in your avatar: He sure is adorable!;))
 
Hi there, Kristin - Just took a peek at Scout's SS and saw those nice yellows at AMPS/PMPS on 11/19. :)

Can you tell me if there was anything different happening in his routine then? (Also would still encourage you to get a mid-cycle # or two whenever humanly possible. Not that I'm trying to be an ol' nag or anything...;))

P.S. Hey! Where's that cute Thanksgiving-themed shot of Mr. Model that I've been hoping to see???:D
 
nothing has changed. I know I'm slacking on updating his SS but yesterday he was in the high 400's/500's so I've just about had it. I can't figure out what is causing him to go all over the place like this
 
Kristin & Scout said:
I can't figure out what is causing him to go all over the place like this
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I can feel your frustration, Kristin ... The best advice I can offer you is: Do your best to get those mid-cycle tests in ... because a lot more data really is essential to help you solve this kind of puzzle.
 
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