I don't know what I'm doing!

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MySimonBoy

MySimonBoy

Member Since 2015
Hi! My 12 year old cat Simon was diagnosed May 27 of 2015. The vet started him out at 2 units of ProZinc, twice a day. She also had me start him on Purina DM, both wet and dry, eating both equally. After 3 weeks, he spent a day at the vet for a glucose curve, and the vet thought his numbers were still a bit high, so she upped him to 3 units of insulin, twice a day. My husband and I went on vacation in July, and I took Simon to a kennel where they had experience giving insulin shots. Simon stopped eating, so they stopped giving him his shots, and took him to the vet. Simon was seen by a different doctor, but still at our same vet clinic. This vet thought Simon was getting too much insulin and reduced him to 2 units again. At the beginning of Aug, Simon went back in to the vet for another glucose curve. They decided to keep him at 2 units.
Fast-forward to last weekend. Simon was not eating well, so I was doing some research on line (finally!), and found this website and forum. I spent a whole day reading about feeding a diabetic cat (and cats in general), and decided to slowly change the diets of all three of my cats. My cats are on a eating schedule, and only eat twice a day at 7:30 am and 7:30 pm. I slowly started introducing Wellness canned cat food to all three of my cats, and weaned them off of dry cat food. Well, for the last few days, Simon has decided he only wants the wet food, so in the am and pm yesterday, and this am, I only gave him one unit of insulin, not knowing how being off the carbs would affect his BG and not wanting to give him too much insulin...
Today, I bought a home meter, and at 2:00 pm, I tested his BG. It was 61. Anywhere between 50 and 120 is "normal", right? I don't know what to do! I want to do a curve tomorrow..... but what do I do now? Simon's schedule is to eat again at 7:30 pm, and get his insulin after that. Do I test again before he eats? And if it's below 200, I don't give him insulin, right???? And tomorrow, if I want to do a curve, do I test him again before he eats at 7:30 am and depending on that number, do or do not give a shot??? Advice, please!!! Thank you!
 
Hi! It's great that you started your research and made the changes you made. And you're in the right place for really sound dosing advice. Now you know a bit more about where Simon is with his disease, and he seems to be doing really well. There just need to be some adjustments. A lot of us have realized that we would have killed our cats if we listened to our vets. Unfortunately, there seem to be very few who are really familiar with how diabetes works.
YES! ALWAYS test before you shoot him! What you were likely seeing was hypoglycemia after he switched to a low carb diet. Which is great that Simon might be one of the kitties who may be able to be controlled with diet. 61 is fast approaching hypo if he still has a way to go before he reaches the lowest point in his cycle (NADIR). You may want to test again ( I don't know long since you tested last) and see if he is any lower. You will want to give him some low carb food to get his BG up a bit if it has so you can avoid a dangerous situation and then test again within the hour.

Please post again after you test tonight before you give his PM dose and people can advise you. If you ever have any doubt, it's perfectly fine to skip the shot. Better he go a little higher than risk hypoglycemia. There are not as many Prozinc users on the forum and very few at night, so you should post in the Main Health forum so more people will see your post, in addition to the Prozinc forum.

I'm going to tag the few people who are really familiar with prozinc dosing. @Sue and Oliver (GA) @BJM @Rachel @Robin&BB
 
How long ago did you test Simon? And was that a human-type glucose meter?
Either way, I'd like you to do another test now and post result.
 
MySimonBoy said:
Today, I bought a home meter, and at 2:00 pm, I tested his BG. It was 61. Anywhere between 50 and 120 is "normal", right? I don't know what to do! I want to do a curve tomorrow..... but what do I do now? Simon's schedule is to eat again at 7:30 pm, and get his insulin after that. Do I test again before he eats? And if it's below 200, I don't give him insulin, right???? And tomorrow, if I want to do a curve, do I test him again before he eats at 7:30 am and depending on that number, do or do not give a shot??? Advice, please!!! Thank you!
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What a Great job you have done already - changing his diet and knowing the dose had to lower too. I'm with Robin. How long ago was your 61. Am I right it was 6 hours since the last shot? Please get another test so you know whether he has started to rise or whether the number is still falling. And yes, a couple teaspoons of food would be good - they will make his numbers rise.
 
And the really good news for you is ... given that 61 at about 6 hours after that morning shot, it would appear that Simon may even have another dose reduction coming soon! Great job on feeding & lowering that carb level.:bighug:
 
We interpret blood glucose readings based on what time they were done with respect to the shot.
AMPS is the morning pre-shot test, before the shot is given
PM PS is the evening pre-test
Other tests are referenced as +# for the number of hours since the shot
Ex +2 is 2 hours after the shot
+5 is a test 5 hours after a shot, and so on.

How many hours after the shot was that test?
 
THANK YOU everyone!!! I greatly appreciate your advice! I just love my boy so much and I'm going to start crying right now thinking about all of this! (I've had my Simon longer than I've had my husband and human children, so he's truly my baby!). Anyway, yes, the test was 6 hours after his am shot. I used the human meter, Relion from Walmart.

I just gave him another test (it is 5:00 pm central time), so about 9 hours since his last shot. He's at 71 now. Whew. Up a bit. :) I gave him some treats and lots of love! :)
 
MySimonBoy said:
Hi! My 12 year old cat Simon was diagnosed May 27 of 2015. The vet started him out at 2 units of ProZinc, twice a day. She also had me start him on Purina DM, both wet and dry, eating both equally. After 3 weeks, he spent a day at the vet for a glucose curve, and the vet thought his numbers were still a bit high, so she upped him to 3 units of insulin, twice a day. My husband and I went on vacation in July, and I took Simon to a kennel where they had experience giving insulin shots. Simon stopped eating, so they stopped giving him his shots, and took him to the vet. Simon was seen by a different doctor, but still at our same vet clinic. This vet thought Simon was getting too much insulin and reduced him to 2 units again. At the beginning of Aug, Simon went back in to the vet for another glucose curve. They decided to keep him at 2 units.
Fast-forward to last weekend. Simon was not eating well, so I was doing some research on line (finally!), and found this website and forum. I spent a whole day reading about feeding a diabetic cat (and cats in general), and decided to slowly change the diets of all three of my cats. My cats are on a eating schedule, and only eat twice a day at 7:30 am and 7:30 pm. I slowly started introducing Wellness canned cat food to all three of my cats, and weaned them off of dry cat food. Well, for the last few days, Simon has decided he only wants the wet food, so in the am and pm yesterday, and this am, I only gave him one unit of insulin, not knowing how being off the carbs would affect his BG and not wanting to give him too much insulin...
Today, I bought a home meter, and at 2:00 pm, I tested his BG. It was 61. Anywhere between 50 and 120 is "normal", right? I don't know what to do! I want to do a curve tomorrow..... but what do I do now? Simon's schedule is to eat again at 7:30 pm, and get his insulin after that. Do I test again before he eats? And if it's below 200, I don't give him insulin, right???? And tomorrow, if I want to do a curve, do I test him again before he eats at 7:30 am and depending on that number, do or do not give a shot??? Advice, please!!! Thank you!
Click to expand...
Hey there! So glad you weaned your cats off dry food. I've been feeding my diabetic cat Soulistic and it's worked well-Wellness is great but it's a bit too high in phosphorus(which is not good in the long run for diabetic felines). I give Willee ProZinc twice a day as well -2 units. Testing his blood is the best thing in keeping great control of his diabetes. Willee' been diabetic since Aug 2013. Generally if the cat's BG is under 300 then no insulin-you have to wait for it to climb higher 300 & up. So testing before he eats is ideal right now. And keep a log.
 
Btw, I use the Alphatrack 2 because it's calibrated for cats-(purple meter) you don't want any discrepancies when it comes to the BG reading and with the human meter it could very well be off?
 
MySimonBoy said:
THANK YOU everyone!!! I greatly appreciate your advice! I just love my boy so much and I'm going to start crying right now thinking about all of this! (I've had my Simon longer than I've had my husband and human children, so he's truly my baby!). Anyway, yes, the test was 6 hours after his am shot. I used the human meter, Relion from Walmart.

I just gave him another test (it is 5:00 pm central time), so about 9 hours since his last shot. He's at 71 now. Whew. Up a bit. :) I gave him some treats and lots of love! :)
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Good; so his normal shot time tonight is around 8 pm central, is that correct?
When you say you gave him some treats, what are you using for treats & how much did you give?
 
Willee#1 said:
. Generally if the cat's BG is under 300 then no insulin-you have to wait for it to climb higher 300 & up. So testing before he eats is ideal right now. And keep a log.
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We use the cut off of 200 for no insulin on this forum and find it to be a safe number. If you get a number under 200, stall. Wait 20 minutes without feeding and retest. You want to be sure the number is rising, not falling, and over 200.

Generally we consider a cat regulated if the are in the lower 200s at pre shot and in double digits at nadir (5-7 hours after the shot) but above 50 which is nearing hypo territory. We think the renal threshold is somewhere in the range of 250. The more time spent below that range, the better the pancreas can heal.

These numbers are for human meters. If you are using an AlphaTrak, then you will be looking at numbers somewhere in the range of 30 points higher.
 
Willee#1 said:
Hey there! So glad you weaned your cats off dry food. I've been feeding my diabetic cat Soulistic and it's worked well-Wellness is great but it's a bit too high in phosphorus(which is not good in the long run for diabetic felines). I give Willee ProZinc twice a day as well -2 units. Testing his blood is the best thing in keeping great control of his diabetes. Willee' been diabetic since Aug 2013. Generally if the cat's BG is under 300 then no insulin-you have to wait for it to climb higher 300 & up. So testing before he eats is ideal right now. And keep a log.
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Hi there ~ Could you tell me a little bit about Soulistic cat food,it's one that I have not heard about. Do you have to order it online? How many ounces each can and the carb count and calories. I feed my cat Fancy Feast Turkey Feast and Chicken Feast and 3 of the Wellness no grains but saw your comment about phosphorus being too high. Are you in the States? Thanks in advance to whatever info you can give me.
 
(off-topic):
@Willee#1 - Would be great if you could get a SS up and running for your kitty, btw. (See an example in my signature below - just click on the SS.) Putting your BG tests & insulin doses in a spreadsheet is helpful for you, and for anyone who answers a question you might have about treatment, in seeing your cat's "patterns" as they emerge. Also should put your cat's basic info into a signature, too. (See my signature below for an example of info to include). If you have any questions about putting a SS together, start a new thread on this forum & ... you'll get lots of help with that!:)
@Bobbie And Bubba - Perhaps you and @Willee#1 could take the discussion re: cat food to a new thread?
 
@MySimonBoy - Just a little refresher here: So you shot the 1 unit (which was a reduction from 2.0 units) at about 8 am Central Time; your +6 test = 61, and your +9 test = 71 (after you'd given some snacks). Just wanted to say it's quite possible you may not see him rise to 200 by shot time tonight; you may need to skip the dose - but we'll just have to see what you get at pre-shot test time. (Did you see my question above re: what was the snack & the amount?)
 
BTW, your subject line is incorrect. You have obviously been learning like mad and you DO know what you are doing.

I agree completely with Robin. If your preshot test is below 230ish, and you stall and it doesn't move up, you'll probably need to skip.

We put together a protocol for ProZinc. It's in blue in my signature.
 
Hello! Thanks again, everyone. I'm so happy that I found this forum!! I'm Tricia. :)

The "treats" I gave Simon were probably not good ones -- I was panicky and just grabbed the first bag I saw in the cupboard. It was Meow Mix Irresistibles. I think he had about 10 to 12 pieces. And yes, the next meal time is 8:00 central.
 
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Well, that oughta do it!:D But, seriously ... that's fine, Tricia. If he hadn't started rising after those treats, I'd have said to go ahead & give him some more food. But as he did start rising, he's probably fine.

Just for future reference: We try not to feed a diabetic kitty in the 2-hour window (+10 to +12) prior to pre-shot testing time (unless you're dealing with a hypo incident, of course); then @ +12 the procedure is test BG, feed and shoot (but only if his BG is @ least 200 with that test.)

If he's somewhat low at AMPS or PMPS time (say, for example he were at 160), you would stall - without feeding - for about 15-20 minutes and test again. (Often the BG will rise with anticipation of a meal.) There have been times that I've had to do this with my cat (stall/no food/ test again) 3 to 4 times. (Which of, course, threw my shot schedule off by an hour!:rolleyes:) But then there are times when the glucose just isn't going to rise enough, so you skip the dose... we'll see what happens with your kitty in about another half hour - that'll be test time, right?
 
Hi Tricia! I've been busy fighting the traffic to get home from work. :) I see that Robin, Sue, and BJ have already been here taking care of you. So I'm mostly just popping in to say hello! As Sue and Robin said, you are doing GREAT! Just read through this whole thread and you've obviously put a lot of work in already. Simon is clearly very well loved!
 
Rachel said:
Hi Tricia! I've been busy fighting the traffic to get home from work. :) I see that Robin, Sue, and BJ have already been here taking care of you. So I'm mostly just popping in to say hello! As Sue and Robin said, you are doing GREAT! Just read through this whole thread and you've obviously put a lot of work in already. Simon is clearly very well loved!
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@Rachel - Howdy, Rachel! How's it going? Yeah, it just occurred to me when I read your post here that Tricia probably already knows most of the stuff I just wrote about in my last post!
@MySimonBoy - But we're still going to bug you later about doing a signature & getting those BG #s/insulin doses plugged into Simon's very own spreadsheet ...;)
 
Haha Hi @Robin&BB! Hey, never hurts to make sure that information was given, right?

And yeah @MySimonBoy we will bug you about getting that SS set up and numbers plugged in! It really does help us..I find it much easier to give any advice or thoughts if I see it laid out in that format. Plus, should there ever be an emergency, it's the fastest way for us to see what's going on and give you help. :)
 
Trisha, you are in goods hands with @Sue and Oliver (GA) , @Robin&BB. They both have gotten Smokey and me through two hypoglycemic episodes this past week. They won't leave you till Simon is stable. Believe me it was 2am eastern time when Smokey was safe. I don't know what time zones they where in. It's scary but your not alone. Keep strong now for Simon. You can cry all you want when BS rises into the safe zone.

Rachel, I don't think I had the pleasure of meeting you.
 
Simon had a PMPS (at 8:15 pm which is about 30 minutes later than he normally eats and gets his shot) of 176. So I'm going with NO shot. Right??
 
Yeah, I'd say skip this one. He may be a little high in the morning, but that's okay - AND you'll get some decent sleep tonight, too!

(Doing the repetitive stall/retest/ stall/ retest thing is not always practical, especially not for people who can't be home all the time like I can; it can throw your schedule too far off as relates to work life, etc.)
 
Definitely agree on skipping. He is likely to be high in the morning because it will have been 24 hours since his last shot. But, I would still reduce the dose. You want a pre shot tomorrow night high enough to shoot. So a little less than today's dose.
 
Understanding the spreadsheet/grid:

The colored headings at the top are the ranges of glucose values. They are color-coded to clue you in as to meaning.

Each day is 1 row. Each column stores different data for the day.

From left to right, you enter
the Date in the first column
the AMPS (morning, pre-shot, test) in the 2nd column
the Units given (turquoise column)

Then, there are 11 columns labeled +1 through +11
If you test at +5 (5 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +5 column
If you test at +7 (7 hours after the shot), you enter the test number in the +7 column
and so on.

Halfway across the page is the column for PMPS (evening, pre-shot, test)
To the right is another turquoise column for Units given at the evening shot.

There is second set of columns labeled +1 through +11
If you snag a before bed test at +3, you enter the test number in the +3 column.

We separate day and night numbers like that because many cats go lower at night.

The nadir is the lowest glucose between shots. There is a general period when it will happen which is specific to the insulin being used and testing then helps make sure your cat doesn't go too low.

It is merely a grid for storing the info; no math required.
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
Hi there ~ Could you tell me a little bit about Soulistic cat food,it's one that I have not heard about. Do you have to order it online? How many ounces each can and the carb count and calories. I feed my cat Fancy Feast Turkey Feast and Chicken Feast and 3 of the Wellness no grains but saw your comment about phosphorus being too high. Are you in the States? Thanks in advance to whatever info you can give me.
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Hey there-
Go to soulistic pet.com and click on any of the food & it has all the nutritional data. I buy it at my local PetCo and from PetCo.com. The reason for the low phosphorus is over time Diabetes Milletus can have a profound effect on a feline's kidneys, which could contribute to renal failure. So for me, personally, I feel better about feeding Willee a lower phosphorus food.
 
@woodsywife Hello! I mostly hang out on the PZI forum. I'm the early morning crew since I have to get up pretty early for work. I try to pop in on Healthy and the Intro forum but I tend to really only check there if someone tags me or mentions a Prozinc question to me. :) Sometimes, on the weekends, I spend more time reading through other posts since I have a little time then!
 
Good morning! So, I did not give Simon his shot last night. This morning his AMPS was 130... so I waited 10 minutes to retest, and Simon and I had trouble getting a blood drop to form. He was very anxious to eat so he was not sitting nicely for me and I was feeling stressed. Instead of torturing him further, I just fed him. Because his number was only 130, I will not give him a shot this AM either. I will retest (and hopefully do much better) in an hour. I want to do a curve on him today, but I also have an 8th birthday party for my daughter happening this evening, with lots of family coming over -- so house cleaning must happen too! ;) But I will do my very best with Simon!!
 
Happy 8th Birthday to your daughter, Tricia! And WOO-HOO! A terrific AMPS # from Simon! :cat:
Great job :bighug:--- & good luck with doing your curve today (& that oh-so-fun housecleaning:rolleyes:).
 
Rachel said:
@woodsywife Hello! I mostly hang out on the PZI forum. I'm the early morning crew since I have to get up pretty early for work. I try to pop in on Healthy and the Intro forum but I tend to really only check there if someone tags me or mentions a Prozinc question to me. :) Sometimes, on the weekends, I spend more time reading through other posts since I have a little time then!
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Nice to meet you.
 
Hello! I have another question -- I have not been able to do a curve as it's been a rather busy morning, but I did do a check at 1:30 pm (so, 6 hours after he ate this morning, NO shot), and the number was 67. Is that okay? Is it dropping too low again? Even though he hasn't had insulin about 30 hours??? I'm going to start a SS right now with the numbers I have....
 
It is another lovely number. Generally we think a cat is in remission if they range from 40-120, off insulin, for 2 weeks

He may go back up and you might need to give him some insulin, but for now, he is looking good!
 
The link you've posted is for others to see not read. You need to log in to Google Drive and open it from there in order to edit it.
 
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