? 8/4Milo +2 218 +4 180 +6 108 +7 84 +8 109 +11 109 PMPS107 +1 125 +2 101 +3 110 +4 116 +6 142 +11 398

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Good job on the title!! That makes it a lot easier for people to see how Milo's doing!

That 109 is probably a mix of the snack you fed him and the fact that it's later in the cycle and the insulin is starting to wear off..there MAY be a bounce starting too, so don't get discouraged if he continues going up and is higher than you'd like later on....He cleared his last bounce...he'll clear the next one...and the one after that..and the one after that....etc..etc....lol
 
HELP!!! What do you all think about the PMPS of 109? His scheduled shot time would be 7:40 CST and I would need to test him again at 7:30pm
 
Sorry all the 109 is the +11. I will be doing the PMPS in 30 minutes and will post it here for advice on whether or not to shoot. Please watch!
 
OK....Depending on what the real PMPS is, you're going to have some choices (and we HAVE seen cats bounce up 100 points in an hour, so it's not out of the question)

I think it's probably safest for you to give less insulin since he's come down so much from yesterday and if he's still below 200 (and we don't know enough about him yet) that it's your best option

Once you get more data on Milo, you'll learn to shoot lower and lower Pre-shot numbers, but right now we don't have that data.

With the errors in syringes and everything you've already been through, I'm tempted to tell you to start over with the correct dose for his weight (11lbs) which would have been 1U on Tight Regulation

Let's see if we can get some other opinions @Wendy&Neko @julie & punkin (ga)
 
if it's over 150, just shoot on time, feed as normal, and get a +2 to see what he's got in mind.

If it's under 150 and you're uncomfortable with it, wait 30 minutes WITHOUT FEEDING, retest and see if it's rising. If so, shoot.

If you want to readjust those numbers to 200 because you're using an AT, you can, but if you look at the Tight Reg protocol the only difference they say for an AT is to reduce the dose at 68 instead of 150. So . . . it's up to you. We have nothing that gives us a different scale for ATs.

Many cats will rise quickly after +10 or 11. Don't know what Milo will do today, but at this point he's had a great day and has been mostly surfing along for several hours. It would be surprising if he didn't bounce from this long stretch in good numbers.
 
I will wait to see what his PMPS is in 15 minutes. I don't want to shoot 2 units if he is below 150.

I am really not sure what to do........
 
No matter what, since you'll probably be dealing with a lower Pre-shot than you've ever shot before, you'll want to plan on getting a +1 and +2 so we can see how he's doing
 
I would just keep going as she is, Chris. He's having a good response and is in good numbers - the goal is flat and in the 50ish points above 68, and he's nearly there already. Just me, but I'd keep going.

Danielle, if you can't monitor tonight, that might change things. I think of it as making progress to get a cat to this point and personally, I wouldn't back away from it. The 2u is what's given him this great surf today and brought him out of the black numbers.

It's up to you, though, Danielle. As we like to say, you hold the syringe.
 
With the errors in syringes and everything you've already been through, I'm tempted to tell you to start over with the correct dose for his weight (11lbs) which would have been 1U on Tight Regulation

I know that I'm a relative novice Lantus user, but I'd support the above on the grounds that the drop from AMPS to nadir today was quite large.
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If Danielle were to dose on a low preshot, how long would she need to be able to stay awake to monitor if Milo goes too low during the next cycle?
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Remember Danielle.....just because you see a drop from 500 to 200 doesn't mean if you shoot a 200 he's going to drop to -100....Lantus just doesn't work that way

If he's going to earn a reduction, he's going to show you by dropping below 68
 
he only difference they say for an AT is to reduce the dose at 68 instead of 150
yes, thanks Rhonda - the reduction point for AT is a 68 instead of 50 on a human glucometer.

Too many 150's!!!;)

His drop earlier today was because he was clearing a bounce from 3 mornings ago. He didn't go below 68AT. Reductions occur when you go below 68AT.

Remember dosing with Lantus is based upon how LOW the dose causes the cat to go, not the high numbers. He's had a gorgeous surf today - what some people work for months to see.

Danielle, if you look at the TR Protocol page:
  • Adjustments to dose are based on nadirs with only some consideration given to preshot numbers.
  • Reducing the dose:
    The TR Protocol is an aggressive method in itself. The modified version of the protocol is slightly more aggressive. Let's keep all our kitties in the Lantus Tight Regulation ISG safe by suggesting and taking appropriate reductions.
    • If kitty drops below 40 (long term diabetic) or 50 (newly diagnosed diabetic) reduce the dose by 0.25 unit. If kitty has a history of not holding reductions well or if reductions are close together... sneak the dose down by shaving the dose rather than reducing by a full quarter unit. See additional notes in the next paragraph about drops into the 20s and 30s. Alternatively, at each newly reduced dose... try to make sure kitty maintains numbers in the normal range for seven days before reducing the dose further.
but now I feel like I'm pressuring you - and I don't mean to do that, just to give you the information you need to make the decision. All these folks are telling you to decide based upon the preshot. I will leave you with this info and let you figure out what you want to do. Whatever you choose is fine.

No way to know that you won't have to stay up monitoring. If you can't then that should be considered.
 
Aine, what are you talking about asking if she can monitor more than 12 hours? There's nothing to say this would be an extreme hypo. The kitty that is in that situation got 17 units. This is not that situation.
 
What I'd do is STALL, DON'T feed and test again in 30 minutes and see if he's coming up (as long as you can move your shot schedule back tomorrow morning)
 
Here are the "official" guidelines for dealing with a lower-than-you're-used-to preshot. Take a look and see what appeals to you, Danielle. It's fine to stall, it's fine to reduce the dose, it's fine to skip the shot if you are unnerved. Everyone will respect your choice.

These are all in human glucometer #s - the Tight Reg protocol says to add 18 to the human glucometer numbers for an AT.



HOW TO DEAL WITH LOW PRESHOT NUMBERS
**** The following guidelines apply to the Tight Regulation Protocol for Lantus or Levemir ****

You just tested your cat’s preshot number, and there is a much lower than usual number staring back at you. What do you do?

There is no one-size-fits all answer, but there are some general guidelines. As with everything else, each cat is different (ECID) and each caregiver is different too.

The short answer is that most kitties can be shot at +12, almost regardless of the number, once you are data ready to do so. The exception is that shooting 30s or 40s is not recommended for most cats, so if a cat is lower then usually the best option is to wait until they are at a shootable number to shoot. What constitutes a shootable number will vary by cat, but we don't suggest or recommend shooting a preshot number less than 50. While you’re waiting, the depot is draining, so you want to get the insulin in as soon as it makes sense to shoot.

If it is your first time shooting green, then we will likely suggest that you stall the first time, even if the number is 80-100. That will let you collect data on what your cat will do when you stall. One thing you can do if you are having a low cycle is to get a +10 and +11. Those will give you a good idea of how quickly the cat’s numbers are rising (or not) when preshot time arrives.

Beyond the general guidelines, there are other factors we consider when we are helping someone with a low preshot.
  • If the low preshot is not part of that cat’s normal pattern or there is reason to think something might be wrong, we will be more conservative.
  • If the cat is not a food spiker or tends to have an early onset/early nadir then they may not want to shoot as low. If the cat has a late nadir, then they will HAVE to learn to shoot low.
  • We will also be more conservative in some cases because of the person – if you are not able to monitor then you want to be more careful, or if you are not sure that you can get back to the board to keep us updated throughout the cycle. Trust me, if you shoot low, we will be watching for your updates and we will worry if we don’t see them.
  • We have to be a lot more careful with the cats who eat only dry food, because they don’t have access to the tools the rest of us use to keep our cats safe.
  • Also, when it comes to very low preshots, there is an unwritten rule that whoever helps that person shoot low should expect to sit with them through any low parts of the cycle. There have been times when I knew a cat’s number was likely shootable, but I also knew that I could not be around to help if the shot resulted in low numbers later in the cycle. For safety’s sake, if I could not find someone else who would be available to support for the next several hours, I would most likely suggest that the shot be reduced or skipped. I will not encourage someone to shoot low and then abandon them.
  • There are a lot of other scenarios, and you always want to keep your cat in mind.

Some general rules when stalling (ECID):

** 50s or higher – don’t feed. The number will bump up on its own soon due to the insulin wearing off.
** 40s or lower – you have a couple of choices.

  • When 40s occur at the end of the cycle, it can be beneficial to withhold food and test in 15-20 minutes to determine if kitty is on the rise or hasn’t reached nadir yet.
  • If they are hanging in the 40s for a while, or if they are still dropping, it is ok to feed a tsp or two of LC and retest. This is very tricky. You want to avoid feeding too much while you’re waiting for them to go over 50, because you don’t want to artificially inflate the number with food.
  • --- Example: if kitty is 43 and you feed a whole meal, or feed some HC, and the number bumps up to 52, is that the cat’s natural end-of-cycle rise, or is it food spike? What if it is food spike? Then if you shoot the 52, when the food wears off he might drop back to the 40’s (and when insulin kicks in a couple of hours later, you might have a problem). If the 52 is the cat’s natural rise, then he will probably keep rising for the next few hours until insulin kicks in. If you can’t tell whether the number is food spike or natural rise, it’s safest to wait. Your data will help you here. Study the spreadsheet. How much food spike does the cat usually get? How many hours after the shot does the insulin’s onset usually occur in this cat? At what number is the cat likely to be when onset occurs? If the cat does drop, how easy/hard is it to regain control of the numbers? How carb sensitive is he?

** Test often (every 15-20 minutes, or at most every 30 minutes). You want to catch the rise the minute it starts. With most of our cats, once they start to rise they will really zoom. You want to get the insulin in as soon as possible, because it will be another 2-3 hours before the insulin kicks in and you don’t want to let the cycle get too far ahead of you.

Perhaps the most important guideline in shooting low is that any time you shoot your lowest ever number, you should get a +1 and +2 to give you an idea of how the cycle will go. If the +1 is not higher than PS, or if +2 is much lower than PS, that means “pay attention” over the next few hours. Those tests will also help you become even more data ready for the next time you are presented with a low preshot reading.

Using the overlap by shooting low is a great way to take advantage of Lantus/Levemir’s long, flat cycles, once you have learned to do so safely.

~ written by Libby and Lucy
 
Aine, what are you talking about asking if she can monitor more than 12 hours? There's nothing to say this would be an extreme hypo. The kitty that is in that situation got 17 units. This is not that situation.

I am quite aware that this is not the cat that received the overdose, Julie.

I am concerned about the fact that Danielle has had several very stressful days and may possibly be feeling quite drained as a consequence. I have read on this board many a time in the past year or so that when a cat goes low it may be necessary to monitor the cat beyond the length of the cycle in question. I am also aware of the oft-repeated guidance not to give insulin at preshots lower than 200 without being data ready. Danielle doesn't have much data.
 
Julie is (once again) correct, Danielle

There's really no wrong thing to do...every thing you do at this point gathers data on how Milo responds so the "next time" you have more experience and data
 
Danielle, the thing about Lantus is that it is a "depot" insulin (effect can last somewhat beyond 12 hrs) ... hence, why you may want to just STALL for a little while: Not feed, not shoot; just stall & see if he's still rising after a bit.
 
He's essentially been surfing flat for the last 5 hours, which is great. Remember that you will have a couple of hours after preshot before he onsets and starts going down again. Food and the insulin wearing off in this current cycle will cause him to go up again before onset. However, how tired you are and how late you can monitor plays into the decision making. In the short term, a 20-30 minutes stall without feeding is an option.
 
Also please note, Danielle - that in the (very good) instructions above in Julie's post, the low #s shown are HUMAN GLUCOMETER lows: Your hypo zone on Alpha Trak, starts at 68.
I'd stall, see where he is in a 1/2 hour, then decide. You really probably shouldn't shoot 2.0U unless he's up around 175, IMHO. Not on an overnight cycle.
 
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I disagree with the comment about stalling an hour. That is too long and can be harder to get back on schedule. From the instructions Julie posted above:

** Test often (every 15-20 minutes, or at most every 30 minutes). You want to catch the rise the minute it starts. With most of our cats, once they start to rise they will really zoom. You want to get the insulin in as soon as possible, because it will be another 2-3 hours before the insulin kicks in and you don’t want to let the cycle get too far ahead of you.

And note, 68 is not the hypo zone, 68 is the level at which we take action and feed high carb foods, and when kitty earns a reduction. Many of our OTJ kitties test lower than 68 on AT, we just want to have a margin of safety when kitty is on insulin and that 68 includes that buffer.
 
Danielle...if it's too much for you, you can skip....Milo will probably go high by morning and we just start over tomorrow...no long term harm done

If you'd feel more comfortable shooting a lower dose, that's fine too...it gives him "some" insulin to keep him from going too high

If you shoot 2 units, you're still in control as long as you're testing....

BUT if you give ANY insulin tonight, you have to be willing and able to test as much as necessary to keep Milo safe

As long as you're testing, YOU are in control of his blood glucose.....if he drops too low, you just break out the high carb food or Karo/honey/syrup

Let's see where he is at 8 and let us know what YOU are most comfortable with....There's no "wrong" answer
 
who said to stall an hour?
you did
I'd stall, see where he is in an hour, then decide.

We do not know for sure that AT numbers are 30-40% higher than those on a human meter. The only thing we know is that the 68 AT is equivalent to the 50 human meter. You might want to check out this post by Jill on a Think Tank thread.

And Chris is right, Danielle you hold the syringe and it's your decision to make, based on your circumstances and what you feel comfortable with. All options Chris listed are valid ones to take. What you do now may be different in the future when you have more experience.
 
you did


We do not know for sure that AT numbers are 30-40% higher than those on a human meter. The only thing we know is that the 68 AT is equivalent to the 50 human meter. You might want to check out this post by Jill on a Think Tank thread.

And Chris is right, Danielle you hold the syringe and it's your decision to make, based on your circumstances and what you feel comfortable with. All options Chris listed are valid ones to take. What you do now may be different in the future when you have more experience.
@Wendy&Neko Sorry, I meant to type "1/2 hour" on that post; my error in typing; I apologize.

I am really not trying to argue with you here, Wendy; I had agreed with your earlier post re: stalling. But please look at the glucometer notes page attached to BJM's signature. (Alpha Traks are calibrated differently than human glucometers; hence the difference in "safe" ranges.
 
The only official guidelines we have for ATs is on the TRP protocol - which says to reduce at 68AT and to add 18 points to human numbers for AT. I don't know the source of BJM's chart.

However, this really isn't the place to debate AT numbers.

When you've got your next test, Danielle, would you edit your subject line and post it? Since you haven't shot yet, your count is still from the previous shot, so at 30 minutes, it's +12.5. That signifies that you haven't shot yet.
 
If I can make a gentle suggestion..

I can barely follow what's going on in this condo and if I can't follow the discussion, I doubt that Danielle can. This is like trying to sort out one voice in a crowd of people who are yelling.

I .realize people are trying to be helpful There are times when too much help isn't a good thing. I'd suggest letting Chris, Julie, and Wendy handle the discussion. They were here offering guidance initially and have the experience to lend a helping hand.
 
I got a text from Danielle's husband....she had to leave, but DH is on board with helping with testing/shooting

Milo was at 125 at 8pm (her Pre-shot after stalling 30 minutes) so she told him to shoot 1 unit and test again in 1 hour

She will update when she can
 
If I can make a gentle suggestion..

I can barely follow what's going on in this condo and if I can't follow the discussion, I doubt that Danielle can. This is like trying to sort out one voice in a crowd of people who are yelling.

I .realize people are trying to be helpful There are times when too much help isn't a good thing. I'd suggest letting Chris, Julie, and Wendy handle the discussion. They were here offering guidance initially and have the experience to lend a helping hand.
By all means. Critter Mom and I were on with Danielle earlier today, all day. More than happy to step aside rather than contribute to any confusion here.
 
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