? 8/4Milo +2 218 +4 180 +6 108 +7 84 +8 109 +11 109 PMPS107 +1 125 +2 101 +3 110 +4 116 +6 142 +11 398

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I'm going to offer a gentle reminder for everyone...
in this forum we shoot low to stay low when we have the data to support our decision.

Is the data there to support the decision to shoot low tonight? If not, ample consideration should be given to the caregiver.

Just my 2 cents...
 
I'm going to offer a gentle reminder for everyone...
in this forum we shoot low to stay low when we have the data to support our decision.

Is the data there to support the decision to shoot low tonight? If not, ample consideration should be given to the caregiver.

Just my 2 cents...

I am in full agreement with the above.

.
 
FWIW, I've sent Professor Rand an email asking for clarification on this issue. She's on leave and won't be back til next week. When/if I hear anything I'll report back to the FDMB.
Thank you, Jill - it will be marvelous to have that clarification from Professor Rand!
 
I am really not trying to argue with you here, Wendy; I had agreed with your earlier post re: stalling. But please look at the glucometer notes page attached to BJM's signature. (Alpha Traks are calibrated differently than human glucometers; hence the difference in "safe" ranges.
At this point, BJMs glucometer notes and AT spreadsheet are based on conjecture/personal interpretation, not fact.
Hopefully Professor Rand will soon provide us with more information.
 
At this point, BJMs glucometer notes and AT spreadsheet are based on conjecture/personal interpretation, not fact. Hopefully Professor Rand will soon provide us with more information.
Will be looking forward to that. I know FDMB's main focus here is to "first do no harm." (Safety first, right?) Thanks, Jill, for checking in with Prof. Rand on this. :)
 
I will also point out that the premise of a peer-reviewed board is that if anyone sees anything that makes them go "hmmmm" then they are encouraged to post their point of view. The ensuing discussion can give the caregiver different viewpoints to consider as she makes her decisions. So while this thread is a bit confusing and hard to sort out, it seems that the board is working the way it should.
 
*ALL*

I am so sorry that I was away for a few hours! My best friend dragged me out of the house because the past several days have been hard on me mentally. Today was a GOOD day for Milo and I feel 100% in control. Thank the good lord above and ALL of you for guiding me through this day, I am truly grateful.

I will update my title now and start a new thread on THIS Lantus forum only.

Please note I am having issues with my SS and @Chris & China is updating it for me.

Special things to note about Milo:

1.) We use the AT meter for testing and I will until we are out of test strips that I just ordered.
2.) I am using the TR method
3.) Milo was getting 2 units twice daily for his first full 6 cycles
4.) Milo is on Lantus (duh :) )
5.) Milo's day today was his first GOOD day since his diagnosis

Here are the BG results from tonight:

-PMPS = 107 (7:30pm CST)
*Fed Milo a small raw, frozen chicken treat (Pure Bites - dog treats - he loves them)
BG= 125 (8:00pm CST)
**Gave ONE unit of insulin instead of 2 (8:05pm CST)
*Fed Milo 1/2 can Fancy Feast Turkey & Giblets
BG= 125 +1 (9:00pm)
BG = 101 +2 (10:00pm)
*Fed Milo two spoonfuls of FF low carb dinner (10:15pm CST)


I will be testing his BG at 11:00pm CST for his +3


Can anyone recommend how much more I need to test him overnight? I don' care what time or how late I will do what I need to for him to make sure he does not go down anymore.
 
Here are the "official" guidelines for dealing with a lower-than-you're-used-to preshot. Take a look and see what appeals to you, Danielle. It's fine to stall, it's fine to reduce the dose, it's fine to skip the shot if you are unnerved. Everyone will respect your choice.

These are all in human glucometer #s - the Tight Reg protocol says to add 18 to the human glucometer numbers for an AT.



HOW TO DEAL WITH LOW PRESHOT NUMBERS
**** The following guidelines apply to the Tight Regulation Protocol for Lantus or Levemir ****


You just tested your cat’s preshot number, and there is a much lower than usual number staring back at you. What do you do?

There is no one-size-fits all answer, but there are some general guidelines. As with everything else, each cat is different (ECID) and each caregiver is different too.

The short answer is that most kitties can be shot at +12, almost regardless of the number, once you are data ready to do so. The exception is that shooting 30s or 40s is not recommended for most cats, so if a cat is lower then usually the best option is to wait until they are at a shootable number to shoot. What constitutes a shootable number will vary by cat, but we don't suggest or recommend shooting a preshot number less than 50. While you’re waiting, the depot is draining, so you want to get the insulin in as soon as it makes sense to shoot.

If it is your first time shooting green, then we will likely suggest that you stall the first time, even if the number is 80-100. That will let you collect data on what your cat will do when you stall. One thing you can do if you are having a low cycle is to get a +10 and +11. Those will give you a good idea of how quickly the cat’s numbers are rising (or not) when preshot time arrives.

Beyond the general guidelines, there are other factors we consider when we are helping someone with a low preshot.
  • If the low preshot is not part of that cat’s normal pattern or there is reason to think something might be wrong, we will be more conservative.
  • If the cat is not a food spiker or tends to have an early onset/early nadir then they may not want to shoot as low. If the cat has a late nadir, then they will HAVE to learn to shoot low.
  • We will also be more conservative in some cases because of the person – if you are not able to monitor then you want to be more careful, or if you are not sure that you can get back to the board to keep us updated throughout the cycle. Trust me, if you shoot low, we will be watching for your updates and we will worry if we don’t see them.
  • We have to be a lot more careful with the cats who eat only dry food, because they don’t have access to the tools the rest of us use to keep our cats safe.
  • Also, when it comes to very low preshots, there is an unwritten rule that whoever helps that person shoot low should expect to sit with them through any low parts of the cycle. There have been times when I knew a cat’s number was likely shootable, but I also knew that I could not be around to help if the shot resulted in low numbers later in the cycle. For safety’s sake, if I could not find someone else who would be available to support for the next several hours, I would most likely suggest that the shot be reduced or skipped. I will not encourage someone to shoot low and then abandon them.
  • There are a lot of other scenarios, and you always want to keep your cat in mind.

Some general rules when stalling (ECID):

** 50s or higher – don’t feed. The number will bump up on its own soon due to the insulin wearing off.
** 40s or lower – you have a couple of choices.

  • When 40s occur at the end of the cycle, it can be beneficial to withhold food and test in 15-20 minutes to determine if kitty is on the rise or hasn’t reached nadir yet.
  • If they are hanging in the 40s for a while, or if they are still dropping, it is ok to feed a tsp or two of LC and retest. This is very tricky. You want to avoid feeding too much while you’re waiting for them to go over 50, because you don’t want to artificially inflate the number with food.
  • --- Example: if kitty is 43 and you feed a whole meal, or feed some HC, and the number bumps up to 52, is that the cat’s natural end-of-cycle rise, or is it food spike? What if it is food spike? Then if you shoot the 52, when the food wears off he might drop back to the 40’s (and when insulin kicks in a couple of hours later, you might have a problem). If the 52 is the cat’s natural rise, then he will probably keep rising for the next few hours until insulin kicks in. If you can’t tell whether the number is food spike or natural rise, it’s safest to wait. Your data will help you here. Study the spreadsheet. How much food spike does the cat usually get? How many hours after the shot does the insulin’s onset usually occur in this cat? At what number is the cat likely to be when onset occurs? If the cat does drop, how easy/hard is it to regain control of the numbers? How carb sensitive is he?

** Test often (every 15-20 minutes, or at most every 30 minutes). You want to catch the rise the minute it starts. With most of our cats, once they start to rise they will really zoom. You want to get the insulin in as soon as possible, because it will be another 2-3 hours before the insulin kicks in and you don’t want to let the cycle get too far ahead of you.

Perhaps the most important guideline in shooting low is that any time you shoot your lowest ever number, you should get a +1 and +2 to give you an idea of how the cycle will go. If the +1 is not higher than PS, or if +2 is much lower than PS, that means “pay attention” over the next few hours. Those tests will also help you become even more data ready for the next time you are presented with a low preshot reading.

Using the overlap by shooting low is a great way to take advantage of Lantus/Levemir’s long, flat cycles, once you have learned to do so safely.

~ written by Libby and Lucy
I am digesting this all!!! WOW thank you!
 
We really can't tell you how long you'll need to test tonight. There's just not enough data on Milo for us to "predict" anything!

With him dropping from PS to +2, it's important that you keep testing until we know for sure he's stopped dropping and is able to hold his blood glucose up in a safe range

He only got a tiny bump from feeding him when you shot, so it's important to see where he goes in the next few hours

Hopefully his snack at +2 will help keep him steady ....we'll know more as you get more tests in

The +3 is a good idea
 
Any suggestions as to when I should test again or just make it "my call?" I will stay up all night if I have to, but his #'s went up a little (9 points) and he is getting 1 tablespoon of food now....Milo seems to be very hungry still.
 
He's actually doing exactly what we want him to do, but I'd still plan on getting another test at +4

He's looking GREAT right now...if we can keep him right where he's at, his pancreas is getting in lots of good "healing time"!
 
I welcome your help, please do not stop.
Any suggestions as to when I should test again or just make it "my call?" I will stay up all night if I have to, but his #'s went up a little (9 points) and he is getting 1 tablespoon of food now....Milo seems to be very hungry still.
Yes, get a +4. Did he get a full meal after that little stall @ PMPS time? (Would be good to note when/ how much fed as relates to his chart #s. Helps us understand what's happenin.';)
 
Yes, get a +4. Did he get a full meal after that little stall @ PMPS time? (Would be good to note when/ how much fed as relates to his chart #s. Helps us understand what's happenin.';)
I mean note that in comments section of the SS.
 
As nice as he's surfing, I think you could get a quick nap in....maybe your husband could take a turn at testing and you could sleep for awhile?

I'd want to make sure to get at least a +6 and make sure he's still maintaining his nice numbers
 
Ha! It actually appeared above the "See below!!!!" post ... Yes, get some sleep as he is rising - hooray! Good job! Will be up early out here ... will check in with you then, okay? :bighug:
Thanks! He's worth every waking hour! He even fell right back asleep next to me after testing. He melts my heart! Yes! Sounds good! I'll be doing next round AMPS around 7:45amCST
 
Thanks! He's worth every waking hour! He even fell right back asleep next to me after testing. He melts my heart! Yes! Sounds good! I'll be doing next round AMPS around 7:15amCST
Awww ... and remember: NO FOOD in that 2-hr. window before his AMPS. (I sincerely doubt that he'll do any weird drop down to near 70 or anything like that.) SO... Stay the course! I'm proud of you & Milo!!! (And he's a very young boy, so I think he will heal from diabetes quite nicely for you!)
 
****HELP*****

Milo's +11 was 398 (I expected this increase) m

Should I shoot the 2 units????? Remember I was doing 2 units twice daily and yesterday morning he got 2 units and last night got only got one.

Please advise on your thoughts ASAP! Thank you!
 
Awww ... and remember: NO FOOD in that 2-hr. window before his AMPS. (I sincerely doubt that he'll do any weird drop down to near 70 or anything like that.) SO... Stay the course! I'm proud of you & Milo!!! (And he's a very young boy, so I think he will heal from diabetes quite nicely for you!)
Thank you! I hope Milo is on track! He's not had any food but he's hungry now! Posted his +11
 
AMPS 341!!!!! His went down from 398 at +11 which tells me his pancreas is healing in its own! Milo had no food before +11 and AMPS
 
Good morning, Danielle!

The drop from 398 to 341 is most likely not so much of a drop in numbers as it is meter variance. There's an allowance of 20% with any test so 398 is really a range from 318 to 478. Given that the difference between the two tests is closer to 10%, I wouldn't worry too much. If it were me, I'd go ahead and shoot your usual dose and if you're nervous, get a +2 test. I tend to like getting a +2. If it's way lower than your pre-shot, then it lets you know that you may want to monitor a bit more closely than usual.

The drop doesn't really tell you his pancreas is healing on it's own. That's a big interpretation. Some cats will "double dip" -- see a drop in numbers closer to the end of the cycle or, as I noted, it's a reflection of meter variance. (Sorry to rain on the parade.)
 
AMPS 341!!!!! His went down from 398 at +11 which tells me his pancreas is healing in its own! Milo had no food before +11 and AMPS
Good. His AMPS # is no big surprise because you had given him just 1.0 last night to be safer overnight when his # wasn't rising @ PMPS. (Better safe than sorry!) So now that you've shot the usual 2.0 this morning, stay the course & monitor as you were doing yesterday.
 
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