"You're a Nurse, your diabetic cat will be fine!" NOT!!!

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Deep breathes Fran! This is not nearly so difficult as you may think. Let's just take this one step at a time.

If you have decided to use the AphaTrak meter, use it for all readings and don't bother doing comparisons with the other meters. They will only serve to confuse you. Even two human meters do not produce exactly the same reading on the same drop of blood so sticking to one meter gives you a much better idea of how kitty is doing. While it's always a good idea to have a spare meter to use in a pinch, I would suggest you re-order the AT strips well before you anticipate needing them so you always have a good supply available.

It's important to not focus on each individual reading you take. Readings fluctuate for all sorts of reasons so what we focus on is the pattern over time. As you collect more data you will start to get a much better picture of exactly how the insulin is working for Elliott.

You can start the Lantus on your own. Other have done so quite safely and successfully with the guidance of the folks here. I would however strongly suggest you advice your vet that you are doing so to keep communications open. There is no need to go through another admission to start Lantus. In fact, starting insulin in the vet's office often results in too high a dose being prescribed due to the BG stress elevation cats often exhibit. Some cats will have BG numbers 100 or more points higher in the vet's office than they do at home. Starting at a low dose keeps kitty safe and avoids the "somogyi" effect because yes kitties can experience that too.

The Lantus with an expiry date of Feb 2018 is fine. Please note that while the makers of Lantus test it for human use and give shelf life guidelines that are quite tight (28 days once open) based on human usage, we do not follow those guidelines. We keep our insulin in the fridge even after opening. By doing so, you can use up most if not all the insulin so the Lantus you are getting will last a long time but exactly how long will depend on what dose Elliott ends up needing.

When you receive the Lantus and are ready to start, post in the Lantus/Levemir forum and get advice from people with years of experience using those insulins. They will help you make the transition and assist you with day to day questions. Lantus is a depot insulin so it is important to keep doses/dosing times consistent. There are two ways to use Lantus.....Tight Regulation ( TR documentation link ) and Start Low and Go Slow ( SLGS guidelines link ) . I would suggest you read through these documents and decide which method you are most comfortable with. Both are good but TR does require an exclusively canned food diet and a little more BG testing.

One last note. Your vet may have suggested testing Elliott at mid cycle but the nadir (lowest reading) does not always fall at +6 hours post shot (they tend to be a bit of a moving target) and with the Vetsulin, I believe the nadir may be a little earlier (+4 or +5) so it would be advisable to catch some readings before 6 hours to see if Elliott is going too low on the Vetsulin. This would also help you intervene and steer him with food should he be dropping quickly.

Just saw your latest note.....

I know you started a thread the other day but Elliott had not had such a low reading then. I really think you should start another thread and call it something like "? Urgent dosing advice with NPH needed due to low reading of 42". That will get more attention and more specific help as I seriously think a dose reduction may be needed.

I know this all seems so overwhelming right now, but I assure you, it gets much easier and you'll soon wonder why you got so wound up. And great job on the signature and linking Elliott's spreadsheet. I can see it just fine!:)
 
Wow..I didn't think of testing earlier than 6h..Smart idea..OMG..will do..hope it's not even lower!!!!!! Most BG are very high so will try to figure out a thread to start but it seems NO ONE USES NPH..I hope member, Julia Rae sends me instructions soon. If not I'll call DVM I guess..You are all soooo well informed..My poor cat!!!
 
Your cat is darn lucky to have you! You are learning and caring for him and that's so much more than many sugar cats get. Even if others are not using NPH, there are folks who have used other faster acting insulins and with all the experience on this board, I'm sure someone can make a recommendation simply based on the numbers on your spreadsheet and their experience. It's better for Elliott to be a little too high than going too low. It certainly wouldn't hurt to call your vet and inform him/her of the "42" reading because you don't want a repeat of that or anything lower!

Getting readings before the expected nadir can give you an idea of where things are going in a cycle so most of us will take readings at different times within the cycles along with our pre-shot tests. With Lantus the nadir is generally somewhere between +4 and +8 hours with many being between +5 & +7 hours post shot and dosing is based on the lowest readings taking the pre-shot numbers into consideration. Lantus, because it's a depot insulin has carry over so chances are good you will see lower numbers at pre-shot tests. If you graph readings with Vetsulin the picture that results is like a sharp "v" shape. With Lantus it tends to be more of a smile or grin shape.
 
OMG...I am going to start that new thread when I get my energy back...WELL!!!!!....I went to get his BG and my husband noticed the Insulin syringe on counter still with the Insulin..He was to give it this morning but guess forgot chasing Elliott to feed him before giving the Insulin.. SOOOO..we started checking BG's with Relion, Bayer, and found one AlphaTrak stuck to the empty bottle wall.(AT strips still not arrived) and looked back to today's AMPS and performed new tests .....Let's go with Relion..7am AMPS=440, NO INSULIN, 1pm=374 followed by NPH 2u,
2pm=282..will continue q 2hours....But what does this say? Maybe I am starving him to death but still has high BG's? At 1 pm Frank found 1 Alphatrak strip stuck to the bottle inside and it read for 1pm= 525. A 14.8 lb cat (was 20 lbs) should be getting at least 280 calories/day, right? He is getting 2- 3 oz cans of FF Classic/day=160-180 cal/day...These poor cats need a better home and/or caretaker..This is a shame!!! When Alphatrak strips arrive today, i will start a "real" curve..What else could go wrong???
 
Let's go with Relion..7am AMPS=440, NO INSULIN, 1pm=374
BG readings will fluctuate throughout the day for various reasons including activity, eating, stress. Essentially though, because any meter is allowed a 20% plus or minus variance, those readings are not necessarily that much different.
A 14.8 lb cat (was 20 lbs) should be getting at least 280 calories/day, right?
I don't think you are starving Elliott on 280 calories per day. Someone here posted a formula for calculating calories but I'll have to look for it. I've always used between 25 and 30 calories per pound. My 16 pound girl is on about 300 calories per day. I have another smaller kitty who is much more active and while I don't count his calories nearly so closely (he's not diabetic), I'm sure he easily takes in 300 calories or more per day but is not gaining weight. He likes to sample everyone else's food! We do have to monitor our cats calories but I wouldn't get hung up on formulas and calculating down to the exact calories as much as whether Elliott is always hungry or satisfied, losing weight/gaining weight as long as you are in the ballpark which you appear to be. Their appetites may be greater or less from one day to the next due to activity or feeling off so their intake may fluctuate a bit too. If Elliott is always hungry you can give him a little more food. If not, and he's not losing weight/gaining weight, then he's fine.

Cut yourself and your husband some slack. You are new to this sugar dance and no harm was done by missing the shot this morning. I've been at this for almost a year and the other night I fell asleep watching TV and missed my girl's shot time so it was late and I had to adjust her schedule. Life happens! There is a lot to learn and no one learned it in a few weeks. No matter how dedicated you are to your furry kids, you and hubby need to have a life too. Like they say on an airplane, put your oxygen mask on first, then tend to those around you who need assistance. :)
 
he's only getting 160-180 cal/day. He's supposed to get at least 280 cal/day/ 20X14.8 lbs/indoor cat. I've put in a call to the DVM..still waiting for the call??? Now his BG is 71/Relion and 92/ Bayer...nothing making any sense..So, I don't know when to give next Insulin, since such a low BG at 4pm. He is not gaining wait. I am feeding him again now..
 
Fran, feeding Elliott now is the perfect call. I misread your note about his food so yes you need to give him more calories and even though the vet probably told you to only feed him twice a day at shot time, feeding another meal in the middle of each cycle or smaller meals a little more frequently is quite all right and sometimes better for the cat.

Right now you want to get his BG to start rising. It's only 3 hours since his shot so he may drop even lower. Only give him a little food, tbsp. or so and then retest him in 20 - 30 minutes. We don't want him getting too full such that he won't eat in case you need to get more food on board if he doesn't start rising. With the NPH, you are going to need to try to avoid numbers under 80-90 because it is fast acting and can cause sudden BG drops. Aiming for no lower than 80-90 on a meter. I realize the Bayer was reading 92 but we don't know which meter is more accurate so in this case go with the lower reading from the Relion and act accordingly. When you get another reading post it please and we'll decide what if anything you need to do next. If he continues to drop, you may need to use a little bit of karo or maple syrup. Do you have either of those in your pantry?

I assume you gave Elliott the full 2u again. Is that correct?
 
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@Jill & Alex (GA) Fran was encouraged to post on Health the other day and did so but didn't get as much of a response as she had hoped so I guess she went back to this thread. Her cat had a reading of 71 on a human meter at +3 after his shot of NPH today and I am currently waiting for her to report back as to what her next reading was, so to avoid confusion, probably better she stick with this thread just now.
Are you going to be on for a bit to watch this thread because I really need to run out for a bit but didn't want to leave her until I knew her cat was holding or rising BG wise. Her cat dropped to 42 yesterday and we encouraged her to get some advice on Health then but she gave the full 2u again today and is once again facing a potentially low number!
 
Ok I see you got a reading of 107 at 6pm which would really be +5 hours post shot. I would get another reading at +6 just to make sure Elliott's BG is rising and if it's the same or lower, feed him a little more food. If it is substantially lower, you can post a "911" on the health forum to get more eyes on your situation.

Just to recap....
7am BG was 440
1pm BG was 374 - gave 2u NPH
2pm BG was 282
4pm BG was 71 on Relion (92 on Bayer)
6pm BG was 107

So I would put your reading of 440 into your spreadsheet on the evening cycle side for 13Jan16 in the +11 column and put AMPS BG of 374 since that is when you gave the shot so we can track how far post shot Elliott is. Put your reading of 282 into the +1 column of your 14Jan16 day cycle, the 71 into the +3 day cycle column and the 107 into the +5 column. If you want to keep track of the Bayer reading, add it into the note column at the far right hand side of the spreadsheet.

Your next shot would not be due until 12 hours later which would be 1AM your time however I'm sure you want to get back onto a proper schedule again so I'd recommend you skip tonight's shot especially when Elliott is now dropping into low numbers that need to be closely watched and then get back on schedule tomorrow.

As I said before, it's clear that Elliott needs a reduction of his insulin dose however I am not sure how much to suggest. That is a question for your vet and if your vet does not recommend a reduction of at least .5 units, then I would definitely post here for advice. It's far better to have Elliott running a little high than dropping too low so I would definitely err on the side of caution and NOT give the 2u again. Even with a half unit reduction, I'd be monitoring to ensure he stays in safe numbers as that low of 42 yesterday may have made him a little more sensitive to the insulin.

I have to run an errand so as I said, if you need any further assistance, please post on the Health forum and use "911" if it is urgent.
 
We generally recommend a starting dose of 1u twice daily with Lantus.
For a 4kg cat - with no prior history of insulin treatment.

For information, the TR guideline for Lantus starting dose is 0.25 IU Lantus per kg of either current weight, or per kg of ideal weight if the cat is overweight. There is also the qualifier that history of response to previous insulin(s) should be taken into consideration when determining the initial dose for cats who are starting on Lantus but who have previously received insulin treatment.


Mogs
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Fran, have you got another reading yet? Please let me know how Elliott is doing.
I just came back..been on phone with( advisor Nurse) daughter who simply told me what she would do on a med-surg unit with human. also had DVM tech on phone and one of your members called me . I do not understand the no +12 or +13 vs switch +1, or whatever for the charting..I think that I am very overtired..but will read MrWorfman's Mom's charting again later after I lie down for a little while. . I did not intend to overstay my welcome on the introduction page. I thought I was responding to some nice concerned member and all started again. I am so sorry to take up your precious time and I will try to start a thread to help me and transition to Lantus, when it arrives. You are all decent and level headed people. I am decent but, level headed at this time????? I hope to be able to give again..not just take from all of you..Again, I am sorry.

7am BG was 440 (416 Bayer)
1pm BG was 374 (340 Bayer) gave 2u NPH (1 AT strip found)- 525
2pm BG was 282 (232 Bayer)
4pm BG was 77 (92 on Bayer)
6pm BG was 107 (Bayer) ran out of Relion
8pm BG was 134 (Bayer) AlphaTrak strips just arrived-AT 170- NO insulin with dinner
6am BG was 378 gave 2 u NPH with breakfast
12pmBGwas 87 (Bayer 71) 1.5oz FF snack
 
Ditto to Lyresa's message! No apologies are needed but Fran, you do need to calm down and take this step by step. You are wrapping yourself into a pretzel and continuing to do so is not going to help you or Elliott. If you look back on what you have already accomplished it's pretty huge. You didn't know how to test Elliott or give him shots but you do now. Nurse or not, those are big hurdles you have already managed to get over. You WILL learn the ins and outs of taking excellent care of Elliott and you WILL, in the future, be able to help others but for now, give yourself some slack. Take deep breathes, get some rest and try to regroup. I promise, in a short while, you are going to wonder why you thought this was going to be so hard!:bighug:
 
I read your posts but neglected to see the suggested decrease in NPH, that I have been thinking about. Elliott was supposed to receive 1.5u but on release from hospital Dr Mayfield increased dose to 2u when he learned that he would be eating FF Classic instead of Prescription Diet. Today I began feeding him 1 (3oz) can FF after am BG+ NPH,,1 can (3 oz) after NPH peak/lowBG..and 1 can after pm BG +NPH=280 cal, instead of just 160 cal/day. I did this because he is so thin and starving at all times. When speaking with the DVM tech, I told her that the DVM only wanted the NPH peak BG taken (once/day) but I was not comfortable with this. I told her that in addition to a day or so of serials, I believed that at least 3/day were necessary for my comfort. SHE EXPLAINED that THEY determine Insulin needs based on the peak NPH level (your nadir result)..I did not know this. If that's the case, maybe Elliott should be on 1.5 u. due to the low NPH peak BG's. However, If the BG is 4-500 in am and pm, I guess I'm surprised that we can ignore those high results. I am just responding..I will go open another new thread in the "health" section as soon as I have the Lantus and meet with DVM Monday, since no one in health has much familiarity with NPH . I like all of you a lot..hope to see you when I start new thread. Based on what the DVM tech claims, I am trying to decide whether to give NPH 1.5 tomorrow.."The Scaredy Cat" (me) will decide tomorrow???
 
BTW...WATCH FOR VIRUSES THAT REALLY SCREWS UP PC.....I went looking for a graph to plot BG and clicked on "free graph for cat glucose"..Suddenly my laptop went nuts. because it was brand new, I called HP who would only offer to return pc to factory settings that will take 4-5 hours. A FAKE blue screen with warnings and FAKE McAfee warnings popped up telling me to call support phone number but did not call it. BE CAREFUL..I'm on my old Dell..took awhile to get it ...will start thread soon..
 
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