Xuxu 1/14/13 AMPS 739

Status
Not open for further replies.
D

DebH

Member Since 2012
After a beautiful curve yesterday morning, I'm now puzzled about his evening numbers for both days. Why would the Levemir work in the morning and not in the evening. He was confined to the bedroom both days, so didn't have a chance to eat any Iams, only his low carb dry and canned food. I gave the shots the same, I'm positive there wasn't a furshot. But even on the am numbers, it appears he uses up the whole shot in less than 12 hours, no overlap. I'll be gone for 13 hours tomorrow so his pm shot will be late. I was really hoping that Xuxu's tough skin wouldn't hold any of the Levemir in a pocket like it did the Lantus.

He is sneezing a bit, apparently the crash on Sat weakened his auto immune system, but it really isn't more than a few sneezes in the day. He ate well yesterday and today, his whole daily quota.

His WBC has been high (37,000) with an exception of a normal reading in Nov. Looking at his chart, he was just ending the metronidazole for his pancreatitis at that time. Since both my vet and I feel he probably won't stablize his BG until what ever is causing his WBC to increase is taken care of. The vet checked his chart, and they haven't done a thyroid test for him. So I'll start the metronidazole tonight and take him in for a blood test next Monday. If the WBC hasn't budged, they will check thyroid.

Any other suggestions for what to look at? He's already on Orbax and Zithromax, so the metro makes a 3rd antibiotic. We probably won't be able to get the liver infection down until we get his BG HI's down.
 
Well part of the problem right now could be rebound, since he went to 25 on the 12th but you didn't reduce his dose...it can take up to 3 days for a bounce to clear, plus it takes a cat about 3 to 5 days to settle on a dose which is why we hold them on the same dose for a week..UNLESS they drop below 50 for a new diabetic or below 40 for a long term diabetic.

When a ct that is use to running in high numbers suddenly goes lower than they are use to, their bodies tend to think they are lower than they really are so it sends out the message "Kitty going down" and reacts like it is looking at a hypo situation...So if XuXu's body has gotten to those 700s for him to hit even 600s may cause his body to freak out a little bit.

Plus with an elevated WBC there is an infection somewhere, and that alone is going to raise his BG readings.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
MommaOfMuse said:
Well part of the problem right now could be rebound, since he went to 25 on the 12th but you didn't reduce his dose.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you mean. I did reduce his dose from 2.25 to 1.5. on the pm shot.
 
Yes, you did reduce the dose. I remember that from yesterday. I do think there is some rebound happening and not lack of duration. Any dose that can take him from 700s to below 50 has a LOT of action and his body is rebounding to prevent a serious hypo. Rebound can happen because the BG dropped too fast, too far, or too low - or to a number that is safe, but lower than the recent norm. Once that response gets going the time to clear it can be days and if it is a chonic problem it can take longer.

There are cats that have a whopping big response to lev in the 1st to 3rd cycle. (Beau was one of them). After that it can seem like nothing happens, but he is adjusting to the dose still.

Does he have think skin? What length needles do you use? Maybe a longer needle is needed to make sure you are always getting into the subQ space and not the thickness of the dermis. Where are you shooting? Some people find shooting into the scruff can greatly slow/reduce the absorption of insulin. I always stay away from it and shoot below it and to the side of the spine.
 
I would have them check his thyroid anyway (take blood for it at the same time). It would be a good idea to get a base line on him and, frankly, his WBC count has nothing to do with his thyroid health (well, unless the thyroid was infected somehow).

I am assuming that this vet is the same one that did the neuter? It still looks to me like the problems started there. It is rare, but possible for the cut end of the spermatic cord to become infected with bacteria during the procedure. I would think he would have a fever and be very uncomfortable (showing signs of painful urination, cleaning himself excessively, acting like sitting hurt, etc.), but it is something to being up with the vet.

As you probably have been told repeatedly until you are sick of it, the dry food, any dry food, is adding to his number spikes. I found that Beau was very hard to regulate until I got him off dry food. When I talked to my vet about his diet she said "lets get him regulated first and then address his diet". Craziness. I finally started weening him off the dry food anyway and the result was a much lower dose, more even numbers, and lower numbers (no more 400s, 500s and occasional 600s and above). I think he went from 3u to less than 1u. That was on vetsulin. I didn't get relly great numbers until I switched him to lev.

Its just going to take time to get Xuxu off the dry food. But solving the infection issue is of greater priority, I think.
 
The dry food that he is on is Science Diet DM. Isn't that still considered low carb? I talk about him still going for the Iams, but he's only getting a couple of pieces here and there. Its just that he makes a beeline for where the bowl sits and looks mornfully when there isn't anything there. I have found the best luck in letting him out of the bedroom is to do it only after I've seen him eating, so hopefully his appetite is satisfied for the time he is out. The problem is he's been raised with free feeding for 14 years, and I think he's starve if I started trying to feed at a specific time and then taking it up.

So you think he should be totally on canned food? not even DM?
 
Yes he should be totally on canned food...Dry food regardless of carb percentage is a lousy diet for any cat and especially a diabetic. There is an excellent site here that explains the reasoning behind not feeding dry to any cat http://www.catinfo.org/ Plus all dry good has to contain some form of starch to get it to form kibble in the first place.

I can only speak from personal experience but I have 14 cats and the transformation in all of them not just my 2 diabetics has been amazing with simply converting them all over to an all canned diet. My vet has even nicknamed my one guy Myrrdin Mr. Silky Seal because his coat is so glossy and shiney, this little guy went from his mother's milk to an all canned diet he has never eaten dry and he looks Fantastic. I also have a blue point Applehead siamese mix that was born here, fed on dry until he was 4 years old and we got our first diabetic, his coat was always very rough until the diet switch he is now as soft as a bunny the way a siamese coat should feel. I have a 14 year old diabetic that simply taking him off dry food and onto an all canned diet sent him from 485 when dxed to remission where he has remained for the last 2+ years (I gave him a grand total of 2 insulin shots before remission). He is, we believe, a full blood Maine coon but for a large and elderly guy still flies through the air to chase a laser pointer and can fling a catnip mouse with all the glee of a kitten.

Many folks here do free feed canned food, I do not because with 14 it is just unrealistic for my crew I would get nothing done but refilling bowls, plus I have a couple of overweight furkids that are on portion control, but mine are fed 4 times a day, they get fresh food every 6 hours for 3 meals and then I put down frozen for them right before bed so they can nibble as it thaws throughout the night.

Part of the addicition, and it is an addicition that cats get to dry food is the coating that they use on the dry food...it is called Fortiflora and is made of animal digest. It is why most cats will eat the same flavor of dry food for years upon years but when you switch them over to an all canned diet will demand a rotation in flavors. At least, speaking only from my personal experience mine all do, they burn out on a particular flavor of canned and I have to switch between flavors.

Here everyone eats what the diabetics do...just plain old fashioned Friskies Pate, I have tried the more expensive and 'better' quality canned with them but they have turned their noses up at it so I guess I have a bunch of burger and fries type of cats instead of a filet minon and cavier crowd. :lol: Then again everyone here is a former rescue so didn't grow up with cultured palates. :lol:

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
Hill's MD and Purina DM (both Rx "diabetic" dry foods) are 13% carbs. Iams Weight Control dry food is 43% carbs.

According to Dr. Lisa Pierson, DVM (creator of www.catinfo.org):
In the wild, your cat would be eating a high protein, high-moisture, meat-based diet, with a moderate level of fat and with only approximately 1-2 percent of her diet consisting of carbohydrates. The average dry food contains 35-50 percent carbohydrate calories. Some of the cheaper dry foods contain even higher levels.
Click to expand...

Most of us stick with canned foods that are 3-8% carbs. I free feed my crew and they all eat the same thing. I can also attest to the soft silky coats that Mel talked about. But also the stable, healthy weights. When I fed dry food, which I free fed and gave small amounts of canned food twice a day - like 1-1/2 to 2 ozs - my cats were really fat!

Iams Wt Mgmt Beau................................ Beau last Oct after 3-1/2 years on canned food


In case you haven't seen the Binky's list for dry food, here is a link: http://binkyspage.tripod.com/dryfood.html

There are a lot of good tips on the catinfo site that Mel posted the link to. The best thing for Xuxu, and all your cats, is to transition all of them to wet food that is low in carbs. Then you can free feed them again and they will be happier. You may have struggles at first, but stick with it. It is worth it. All of the times that I introduced new cats I have had some weeks of feeding upsets for the "old guys" as the new ones have been kittens or unregulated diabetic, both of which eat everything in site so there is never food down when the older cats go looking for it, but they all survive and things settle down again.
 
Janet and Binky's food list is how I found out about FDMB. It's a great resource and I've taken a print out to the store with me when trying to decide what food to put Xuxu on that was available in more than single cans at a reasonable price. I've got quite a few retired breeding/show cats to care for, all over 10 yrs old, and 4 others with major health problems for right now, so the expense is a major factor.

When I was showing and breeding cats, we fed raw meat along with the dry. They looked fantastic, not for shiny coats, most longhairs have more of a matte color, but for the muscle that it built up. Shiny and soft coats were more a factor of which shampoo you used and the natural texture of the coat. Unfortunately I lost my source for safe reasonably priced raw meat when I retired from showing. My Turkish Vans love raw meat, but the Birmans (Xuxu is Birman) have never been very wild about it. But all my cats did wonderful on professional level dry food for years. I understand the need for wet foods in diabetics because of problems with keeping them hydrated. and I have been misstating the dry food I have Xuxu on, it's Science Diet M/D, not DM. It is a low carb food, and it does satisfy his crunch cravings most of the time. I think he still goes for the Iams because it's familiar. I do use FortiFlora because vet recommended it as a probiotic, I didn't know it was a food coating. But I can't say it makes any difference in what he eats with it. I'd say that now he eats most of the canned food set out before starting on the MD dry. He's still seriously underweight, so I measure his food out even though I free feed him. I and hubby are still working, so the poor dear would starve during the day. I have tried the automatic feeders, but they don't seem to open when he is hungry, he eats more during the day when it's always available. As long as he eats what he needs in a day, I'm not going to force him to take it at a certain time.
 
Right now he is going to be starving regardless of the kind or amount of food that he has available because he is an unregulated diabetic..without the proper amount of insulin his body can't absorb the nutrients out of his food properly..insulin is the key that unlocks the body cells so they can take in the nutrients from food that is eaten. Once his blood sugar is more closely controlled he will put the weight back on, but right now he is literally starving to death with full bowls.

Hills MD dry is still 13% carbs and still way too high for a diabetic..most of us try to stay with 5-8% carbs. Granted it is lower in carbs than say Purina Indoor dry food but still would be something that I would have in my hypo kit and not a regular diet.

None of my cats are ever shampooed and they are all soft and silky in coat, and yes many are long hairs as well...Maxwell, Autumn, Lady Jane Grey, Angel, and Moochie are all long hairs..they all shine in the sun and are so soft to the touch. My Onyx that I just lost to cancer was also a long hair that had severe allergies and was living on pred until I switched his diet to all canned then they mysteriously went away, until he got outside and was lost for 10 months, where he got back into dry food and again was back on pred, had a UTI and was a mess coat wise. Most dry foods if you look at the ingredients are chocked full of corn and wheat as well as veggies...not something a cat would eat in the wild...I live in corn country and I've never seen a cat munching on a ear of corn unless they are licking off the butter.. :lol: As my wonderful vet once said the only corn or wheat a cat should eat should have been processed by a bird or mouse first. Cats are carnivores plain and simple their bodies aren't designed to eat veggies and grains. They have teeth for ripping and tearing prey not for grinding up plant matter.

As far as raw goes there are several places to get raw food for cats...I just don't at this point although it is something that is in the works for later this year but I want to make my own so have to get a decent grinder. Hare Today is one that I am aware of https://www.hare-today.com/ and I know there are others I just can't remember them at the moment...or the site I linked to you earlier gives a recipe to make your own.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
 
I guess my point is that it isn't the low carb per sea that is making their coats better, but that they are healthier cats due to their conditions.
 
I guess my point is that it isn't the low carb per sea that is making their coats better, but that they are healthier cats due to their conditions.
 
DebH said:
I guess my point is that it isn't the low carb per sea that is making their coats better, but that they are healthier cats due to their conditions.
Click to expand...

I beg to disagree I know what their coats looked and felt like when they were on dry food and I know what they look and feel like on all canned food and there is a drastic change it is also the only change that has been made in their living conditions...as most of them are between 6-13 years old and have been here since they were kittens. It may not be so much the low carbs but it is the elimination of dry food which contains grains and starches. In fact the one that had the most drastic change in coat was the one that has been here since birth. Bert my blue-point went from dull and course to shiney and soft in a matter of months with nothing different but his diet. Water the same, litter the same, exercise the same etc...only variable was diet. He now 7 years old and was born in my closet, he has never had any health problems at all so the only thing that could have effected his coat condition was his diet.


Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top