Weight loss in regulated cat

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Waheeda

Waheeda

Member Since 2017
hi, my 12 year old ginger was diagnosed with diabetes 2 mths ago. Vet prescribed vetsulin, twice a day. After several adjustments, we Hv found d dosage that works and his fructosamine test result today was in good range. However, over a period of a week he has lost abt half a kg. I was away this period but someone was taking care of him and he was eating well. Anyone has an idea why he suddenly lost weight when his diabetes is regulated?
 
There may be many reasons.

Is there any other health issues that you are aware of? Even though Jones is well regulated he still will lose weight on me, but he does have IBD which is an added issue. And surprisingly enough, he ate like a horse until he was very ill. What tipped us off was the weight lose, vomiting and diarrhea - which lead to the IBD/pancreatitis dx, which based on those meds he was dx with diabetes.

Stress when main caregiver is gone. I have notice with Jones, even if he eats when I am gone - it isn't is usually amount.

Is there any other clinical symptoms - like with Jones - diarrhea, vomiting?

May need time with the diabetes - even though his BG was going through cycles and he wasn't always getting the most out of the nutrients he was eating.

Are you home testing to see how low he is going on the insulin? The thing I found was the vet was telling me his fructosamine test was in a good range and showing that he was becoming regulated but his BG's were still pretty high but he was dropping really low sometimes and we end up reducing the dose repeatedly as his pancreas healed up.
 
No, he doesn't have any other problem. He's such a healthy kitty and hardly ever fall sick. I'm thinking of doing home testing to do a glucose curve but the vet thinks the fructosamine test is sufficient. My cat is on wet food most of the time. D only dry food I leave for him is Royal Canin diabetic food. I'm just hoping it's cos he missed me. Crossing my fingers. Cos the vet said if he still loses weight when his diabetes is under control, then its likely he has cancer . Is this so?
 
Has your kitty ever been tested for hyperthroid? It is an extra test that has to be asked for separately and is not usually included in the full blood panel. A hyperthyroid kitty can eat like a pig and still lose weight. IF it were to be the case there is a medication that can be given to keep the condition under control.

Also, home testing is really the best way to see how your kitty is doing. Fructosamine tests are a good way to initially test for diabetes in a kitty who is not on insulin, since the stress of a vet visit does not affect the results. However for a kitty on insulin, the fructosamine test only gives an average reading over a period of several weeks. If the glucose levels have been very high AND very low the fructosamine test ( which is only an average over time) can show that the numbers are good, even though they may be going up high and low.....hope I explained that well and that makes sense. Testing each day before every shot and ideally at least once in between shots will show what sort of ranges are being reached. Vetsulin is a faster acting insulin which can bring numbers down...in some kitties...quite a bit early in the cycle (time between shots) and then the numbers can rise sharply towards the end of the cycle. Insulin needs can change with different factors so home testing is the best way to keep your kitty safe and get an accurate picture how well the insulin and dose is working,


ETA Dry food is not good for any kitty especially a diabetic kitty and even "special" diabetic dry food is still too high in carbs for what a kitty with diabetes should have. However do not remove the dry food altogether until you are home testing, since some kitties can have a big drop in glucose readings when high carb dry food is removed from the diet.
 
Hi,
Yes. Tested for hyperthyroid and its negative. Actually he doesn't eat much of d diabetic dry food. I gave him hoping he puts on weight faster.
I asked d vet if I could do home testing n adjust d insulin dosage accordingly but she wasn't comfortable. She felt d fructosamine test is sufficient and changing d dosage often will do more harm to the cat.
 
Waheeda said:
She felt d fructosamine test is sufficient and changing d dosage often will do more harm to the cat.
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I am going to humbly disagree with your vet. The BG is changing constantly depending on stress, amount of food eaten, what food was eaten how the body tends to react. Without doing at least 4 tests a day, you don't know what the insulin is doing or how your kitty is doing. I had Jones go from 358 at AM pre-shot time to 58 on the PM pre-shot time. Which if I would of given his insulin without further testing may have severely harmed him. My vet was the same way until she saw my results and she owned a diabetic cat, so she actually did her own home testing. She just didn't believe that a client would go to the level I did.

I would encourage home testing, most people here find that it does get easier and is the best way to take care of kitty.

What kind of wet food are you feeding him? I have Jones on Wellness grain free - low carb. It is also high calories so I can get more calories in with less volume.

I would love to say that cancer may not be a concern, but unfortunately it may be. I would of assumed your vet did a full physical and with the blood work - was there any other indicators? High WBC or even very low WBC? We do have people here that can help with reading blood work results if you happen to have a copy to share.
 
Waheeda said:
Cos the vet said if he still loses weight when his diabetes is under control, then its likely he has cancer . Is this so?
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I think that's kind of a huge jump for possibilities as to why he is losing weight. What is his wet food schedule? Amounts? Is he still eating normally? Did he eat while you were away?
 
Hi,
I've attached the blood full count test that was done last month.

As for his wet food, I give him mixed brands and flavours cos he gets bored after a while. He's eating Burp, Fancy Feast, Fish4cats, whiskers etc. He likes to eat in small amounts so he'll get maybe 1/2 - 3/4 can every 2-3 hours depending when he asks for it. If he din ask for it, I will just leave the food near him and he'll slowly eat. He'll wake me up about 2 - 3 times at night to eat.
Apparently, yes, he was eating while I was away. Maybe less frequently in the morning but every 3 hours or so after 5. But I have 3 other cats so I'm not sure if he ate the full amount or another cat finished it for him cos he wasn't monitored.

I'll be getting the glucometer tomorrow and will do a glucose curve on Fri.

In the meantime, I'm feeding him often in the hope he'll gain back his weight.

Appreciate your thoughts on the blood test result and if its possible he has more than just diabetes.
Thanks.
 

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@Marje and Gracie If you have a moment, could you look at Waheeda's attachment of Ginger's labs? 2 1/2 weeks ago.
Ginger is 12 years old
Dx Feb 2017
Insulin: Vetsulin BID
Dose: Unknown
Supposedly regulated but that's based on Fructosomine test
No other health issues known. Lost 1/2 kg (~1lb) in a week

I was wondering if Waheeda should get labs done again since Ginger lost weight last week (I think), something different may show now.
 
While fructosamine test might be an indicator of -LONG TERM- control, it's not a good indicator of -short term- control. Blood sugars are better to gauge short term control. For example, if blood sugars are in the normal range 50% of the day and high 50% of the day, fructosamine might still be good. However, the body isn't able to utilize all those calories when high, and for 50% of the day is in an energy deficit - this could lead to weight loss over time.

Even if you aren't keen on adjusting insulin at home, it's definitely worth doing curves at home. This might help you narrow down where the weight loss is coming from. Also, there are many other illnesses besides cancer that can affect weight, and your CBC is all normal. IBS, thyroid issues, kidney issues, liver issues, infections, allergies, parasites, etc can all cause weight loss.
 
Yes there's a second page but the results r all normal except for d blood glucose which was high. I'll scan n attach it later.

As for d glucose curve, d vet tol me to do a 3-hour interval for 18 hrs. Is this d standard ?

And why does he like to sit in d bathroom? He's feeling warm? His usual spot in d past is on the dining table.
 
Waheeda said:
Yes there's a second page but the results r all normal except for d blood glucose which was high. I'll scan n attach it later.

As for d glucose curve, d vet tol me to do a 3-hour interval for 18 hrs. Is this d standard ?

And why does he like to sit in d bathroom? He's feeling warm? His usual spot in d past is on the dining table.
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My kitty was just diagnosed 2 weeks ago and she went from a dry food diet to wet food and she's definitely eating less. So I'm sure she'll lose weight from this. She's also obese. Did your kitty go from dry to wet?
 
Hi,
Yes I switched from dry to wet once he was diagnosed. But he was eating like 6-7 of the 85g cans a day. He lost some weight but on fortnightly basis only around 100g. It's only last week wen I was away that he lost almost 0.5kg which was worrying. And his fructosamine test showed his diabetes is in control. Wats alarming is hearing the Vet said it cld b another problem - cancer.
 
Waheeda said:
Hi,
Yes I switched from dry to wet once he was diagnosed. But he was eating like 6-7 of the 85g cans a day. He lost some weight but on fortnightly basis only around 100g. It's only last week wen I was away that he lost almost 0.5kg which was worrying. And his fructosamine test showed his diabetes is in control. Wats alarming is hearing the Vet said it cld b another problem - cancer.
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Nobody takes care of our babies like us. I wouldn't doubt that he ate less without you around. I pet sit and you should hear some of my stories. I had a dog refuse to eat, a dog. I did that even know they did that. I had to go buy her a rotisserie chicken, lol, she ate it. He's still eating? Just less?
 
This very same thing happened to my Levon. Neither I nor my vet had the answer, so I posted his story here. A very kind stranger figured it out for us. She analyzed the calories he was taking in and how many he needed. It turns out the wonderful wet food I was giving him, Weruva's BFF, is a very low calorie food. Fancy Feast has about a third more calories than the all-fish food I had been feeding him. So when I told my vet how many cans per day Levon was eating, we were bit really communicating correctly. Levon now eats 2 cans of BFF plus one can of Fancy Feast non-fish (because he doesn't like fish, darn him!) He regained his weight, and he may need to cut back some in the future, but he is no longer ravenous.

Thanks to Billysmom, who also sent me this link . http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-much-food.150154/
 
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sofapup said:
This very same thing happened to my Levon. Neither I nor my vet had the answer, so I posted his story here. A very kind stranger figured it out for us. She analyzed the calories he was taking in and how many he needed. It turns out the wonderful wet food I was giving him, Weruva's BFF, is a very low calorie food. Fancy Feast has about a third more calories than the all-fish food I had been feeding him. So when I told my vet how many cans per day Levon was eating, we were bit really communicating correctly. Levon now eats 2 cans of BFF plus one can of Fancy Feast non-fish (because he doesn't like fish, darn him!) He regained his weight, and he may need to cut back some in the future, but he is no longer ravenous.

Thanks to Billysmom, who also sent me this link . http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-much-food.150154/
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Is dat enuf for Levon? Seems very little. My cat is eating much more than that. Each wet food can carries a recommended dosage based on weight of the cat. Is that a good indicator ?
 
Sofa got some valid points, change in diet might do the trick. One week alone is difficult to predict the problem
 
We did another full blood count 2 weeks later to check on his electrolytes and it improved. Then 2 weeks later another test was run and the results is as attached earlier in my post - dated 26 March.
 
So I did my first glucose test today. Didn't manage to do before morning jab as my cat was very aggressive. Did 4 tests at 9.30am, 12.30pm, 330pm n 630pm. His insulin jabs are at 630am n 630pm.

Numbers :
345, 227, 350 n 300.

I can explain the 227 cos dats the peak of d insulin but d last figure is kinda weird. I was expecting it to be higher.

Should I increase dosage? He's on 2 units of vetsulin twice a day.

Thanks!
 
Waheeda said:
So I did my first glucose test today. Didn't manage to do before morning jab as my cat was very aggressive. Did 4 tests at 9.30am, 12.30pm, 330pm n 630pm. His insulin jabs are at 630am n 630pm.

Numbers :
345, 227, 350 n 300.

I can explain the 227 cos dats the peak of d insulin but d last figure is kinda weird. I was expecting it to be higher.

Should I increase dosage? He's on 2 units of vetsulin twice a day.

Thanks!
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I wouldn't increase the dose yet. You need to gather a lot more blood glucose numbers to know how he's reacting to the insulin. The best way we can help is if you set up a spreadsheet like the one we use here and put all your BG measurements on it for the few days. Aim to test every day before feeding and giving a shot (no food for at least 2 hours before) and at least once more near the middle of the day or before bed.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/

If you need help with the spreadsheet let us know. There are techie people here who will help.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
I wouldn't increase the dose yet. You need to gather a lot more blood glucose numbers to know how he's reacting to the insulin. The best way we can help is if you set up a spreadsheet like the one we use here and put all your BG measurements on it for the few days. Aim to test every day before feeding and giving a shot (no food for at least 2 hours before) and at least once more near the middle of the day or before bed.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/

If you need help with the spreadsheet let us know. There are techie people here who will help.
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Ok thanks much. I'll try to get more numbers.
 
Hi Waheeda! Great job getting started with testing! The number right before you give the shot is really important so you can tell how much the insulin is working. Usually we recommend that you test, and then feed your kitty, and then give the shot, in that order. I think it's recommended to wait a bit (like 30 min) after eating for the shot on Vetsulin, but hopefully someone else can say if that's right or not, since I use a different insulin.

Sometimes if kitty is very aggressive because he's hungry at that time, you can give a few bites and test right away (while he's eating) before the food impacts the blood glucose. As all of this becomes more routine, kitty will settle down and get used to the expectation that the test comes first.

You're doing a great job with all of this!
 
Djamila said:
Hi Waheeda! Great job getting started with testing! The number right before you give the shot is really important so you can tell how much the insulin is working. Usually we recommend that you test, and then feed your kitty, and then give the shot, in that order. I think it's recommended to wait a bit (like 30 min) after eating for the shot on Vetsulin, but hopefully someone else can say if that's right or not, since I use a different insulin.

Sometimes if kitty is very aggressive because he's hungry at that time, you can give a few bites and test right away (while he's eating) before the food impacts the blood glucose. As all of this becomes more routine, kitty will settle down and get used to the expectation that the test comes first.

You're doing a great job with all of this!
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Hi Djamila, thanks so much for your kind words. And your tips. I was wondering how to hold food from him for 2 hrs. I will go with your method. I'm so glad to find this forum and get support from everyone. The vets where I am are not very encouraging in home testing as it will stress up the cat.
Last tuesday's fructosamine test showed he's on the good range but today's glucose tests showed otherwise. Could it be that I'm feeding him round the clock so it's messing up the readings? I want him to gain back the weight he lost last week.
 
I feed my kitties all day too. But I do put it all away two hours before the shot time so that the BG test right before the shot is the most accurate. They can survive two hours without food. :cat: When I was getting them used to that though, I would put Samir in front of his food bowl about 2.5 hours before shot time to get him to have a little snack. Then I could put it away until shot time and not worry about him being hungry. Now he knows that at 3:00 the food disappears, and at 5:00 I'll feed him again. Cats are very good at keeping track of time, so after a few days, they get used to the schedule.

Home testing is far less stressful than being tested at the vet's office! Especially if you are calm about it, and it seems like you are. I don't think feeding him around the clock would mess up any readings as long as two hours before each shot time, they have a little break from eating. Many of us leave food out so our cats can graze all day/night.
 
Djamila said:
I feed my kitties all day too. But I do put it all away two hours before the shot time so that the BG test right before the shot is the most accurate. They can survive two hours without food. :cat: When I was getting them used to that though, I would put Samir in front of his food bowl about 2.5 hours before shot time to get him to have a little snack. Then I could put it away until shot time and not worry about him being hungry. Now he knows that at 3:00 the food disappears, and at 5:00 I'll feed him again. Cats are very good at keeping track of time, so after a few days, they get used to the schedule.

Home testing is far less stressful than being tested at the vet's office! Especially if you are calm about it, and it seems like you are. I don't think feeding him around the clock would mess up any readings as long as two hours before each shot time, they have a little break from eating. Many of us leave food out so our cats can graze all day/night.
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Ok thks I'll try. Will share results soon.
Thanks.
 
A question to anyone who can answer. My Vet told me that d vetsulin peak activity is 6 hrs after injection. I did glucose checks 3 days ago 6 hrs after insulin shot and the number was 227. Yesterday I did again n it was 320. Today I repeated and again it's around 310. D number before insulin shot was 380. If d insulin's peak is 6hrs after d shot, why am I getting such high readings?

I Hv yet to set up the spreadsheet as I hvnt got time to work on my notebk yet. But I Hv been collecting d BG numbers.
 
Vetsulin can peak a little earlier, between +4 and +6. What are you using to post right now? Smartphone? You can edit signature and manage spreadsheet from one of those devices :)
 
Waheeda said:
Is dat enuf for Levon? Seems very little. My cat is eating much more than that. Each wet food can carries a recommended dosage based on weight of the cat. Is that a good indicator ?
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In my experience (I'm an adoption counselor in a busy shelter, all kinds of animals) the canned foods all seem to have the same wt/amt info on them. But we tell our adopters that they should take that as starting point. If you feed what the manufacturer says, you will probably end up with a fat pet. I don't mean this as feeding advice here, but, as I found with Levon, there is more to feeding than just reading the label. So monitor your pet, and look at all the info you have about the food and the pet. For example, the cats and dogs who live in kennels with us don't burn up as many calories thru exercise as they do in a home. But animals under the stress of the shelter environment can often lose weight.

Eating three cans a day has helped Levon gain his weight back. For him, it's working. We just keep on weighing him!
 
Yong said:
Great job! And a picture of Ginger :cat:
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Ok put in d figs too. Do u thk I shld chk at +4? Since +6 gave me high figs?

Does ur cat appear lethargic wen d BG is high? My boy has stopped jumping onto bed and table tho his legs look ok.
 
PMPS is the P.M. (evening) Pre-Shot. That's the blood-glucose test that you do right before the evening shot. U is Units - how much insulin you're giving.
 
It's good to get tests from different times in the cycle to build the most complete picture, so yes, check at +4. The only way to know when your cat hits the lowest point (the nadir), is to do a curve. That's when you test every two hours throughout the 12 hour cycles.
 
Many cats have diabetic neuropathy. I don't know a lot about it, but it has something to do with weakening of the muscles in the back legs, which can make jumping difficult. As the BG gets better controlled, many cats experience some healing of those muscles. It's part of why treating diabetes is so important. I'm sure someone who knows more about it than I do will chime in with a better explanation, and some other things you can do to help treat it.
 
Djamila said:
It's good to get tests from different times in the cycle to build the most complete picture, so yes, check at +4. The only way to know when your cat hits the lowest point (the nadir), is to do a curve. That's when you test every two hours throughout the 12 hour cycles.
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I read that you can do the 2-hourly checks on different days to get the curve. I felt guilty of poking him too often so was thinking of spreading it over few days. However, I got low result on first day at +6 but hi results on 2 subsequent days. how do I reconcile this?

Sad to c him chge so much. He's much quieter n keeps to himself whole day. He used to terrorise d other 3 cats.
 
For the most part yes, as long as you get the pre-shot tests before every shot, and then get different mid-cycle tests, you can monitor pretty well. It's good every few weeks though to do a curve for a full cycle. You definitely don't need to do that much testing every day!

Is Jebat eating Fancy Feast Classics? Or one of the other varieties? Food plays a huge role in all of this, and it's very important to keep the carbs lower than 10%. Here's a link to the food chart that can help you make sure the varieties you're feeding are okay. It gives information about the amount of carbs in lots of different foods. http://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf

If the foods you're feeding are already low carb, great! If not, then know that changing food can have a huge impact on BG numbers, so you'll need to monitor carefully.
 
Djamila said:
For the most part yes, as long as you get the pre-shot tests before every shot, and then get different mid-cycle tests, you can monitor pretty well. It's good every few weeks though to do a curve for a full cycle. You definitely don't need to do that much testing every day!

Is Jebat eating Fancy Feast Classics? Or one of the other varieties? Food plays a huge role in all of this, and it's very important to keep the carbs lower than 10%. Here's a link to the food chart that can help you make sure the varieties you're feeding are okay. It gives information about the amount of carbs in lots of different foods. http://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf

If the foods you're feeding are already low carb, great! If not, then know that changing food can have a huge impact on BG numbers, so you'll need to monitor carefully.
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Thanks for d link. Dats such a great database! He's eating fancy feast classic. He din like d gravy or flaked ones. But he gets bored after a while so i giv him applaws too. He also
Likes Burp but I don't c this in ur list. How do I Chk d contents? On d can it says moisture 84%, protein 12%, ash 2%, fat 1%, crude fiber 0.5%. No mention of carbs.
 
I did one check +4 after evening shot n it's 330. Yesterday +6 was also around there. So wen is it d peak for vetsulin? This is so frustrating!
 
Just to clarify, is diabetic kitty female named Ginger or male named Jebat? Starting off can be a little frustrating and requires lots of patience. :bighug: As Djamila stated AMPS and PMPS are tests taken about 30 minutes before actual shot is given, ideally kitty has not eaten for 2 hours prior to this test time so the number is not food influenced. When Maury's numbers were high, he was more lethargic, less social, and sleeping a lot more than usual. He also has diabetic neuroapthy in front paws and hind legs. The higher blood sugar combined with uncontrolled diabetes causes muscle deterioration and nerve damage. The good news is that this damage can reverse it self in combination of controlling BG levels and there are supplements. Popular one here is Zobaline. I mentioned on post #35 Vetuslin can have a nadir between +4 and +6 in most cats. If you happen to get a Pre-Shot (PS) reading of less than 200, do not give insulin. Until you get lots of data, and then you can post here :)
As for your food, I calculate ranges, and for that one I came up with 0% - 3% so that food is fine :cat:. I am a little into Month 4 with my boy and a couple weeks ago started noticing improvements in his neuropathy. :D I've only been able to do the BG control method as I cannot afford Zobaline right now. He wasn't full on his hocks like the grey kitty below but his front paws are slightly on torsel's more than grey kitty as well. We're here to help and advise you based on our experiences :bighug:
This is the way a healthy cat should look when standing:
upload_2017-4-17_11-3-30.jpeg

This is the way one can look with diabetic neuroapthy.
upload_2017-4-17_11-5-6.jpeg
 
Yong said:
Just to clarify, is diabetic kitty female named Ginger or male named Jebat? Starting off can be a little frustrating and requires lots of patience. :bighug: As Djamila stated AMPS and PMPS are tests taken about 30 minutes before actual shot is given, ideally kitty has not eaten for 2 hours prior to this test time so the number is not food influenced. When Maury's numbers were high, he was more lethargic, less social, and sleeping a lot more than usual. He also has diabetic neuroapthy in front paws and hind legs. The higher blood sugar combined with uncontrolled diabetes causes muscle deterioration and nerve damage. The good news is that this damage can reverse it self in combination of controlling BG levels and there are supplements. Popular one here is Zobaline. I mentioned on post #35 Vetuslin can have a nadir between +4 and +6 in most cats. If you happen to get a Pre-Shot (PS) reading of less than 200, do not give insulin. Until you get lots of data, and then you can post here :)
As for your food, I calculate ranges, and for that one I came up with 0% - 3% so that food is fine :cat:. I am a little into Month 4 with my boy and a couple weeks ago started noticing improvements in his neuropathy. :D I've only been able to do the BG control method as I cannot afford Zobaline right now. He wasn't full on his hocks like the grey kitty below but his front paws are slightly on torsel's more than grey kitty as well. We're here to help and advise you based on our experiences :bighug:
This is the way a healthy cat should look when standing:
View attachment 27624
This is the way one can look with diabetic neuroapthy.
View attachment 27625
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Hi Yong,
Thanks for ur fast reply.
Oh he's standing n walking fine but not jumping anymore. Wen he wans to drink from the tap, he'll meow loudly and we'll carry him up. Oh by the way, his name is Jebat n he's a ginger tabby. Sorry if I have confused u.

The glucose reading does not seem to chge much! Yes for d pre-shot, I did it half hour before his insulin jab n 2hrs after food. So far only managed to do it once. The rest that I did like +3, +4, +6 all are food-influenced. But even then, I should be able to see the peak, am I right? Why am I not seeing it? D readings are hovering around 300-350 most times.

I know I have to be patient but we want him to do well soon. Oh, I'm happy to say he has put on weight. Close to before I went away, thank God for that.

Thanks for ur kind words. It does get depressing when the figs don't go down. And we miss his active, naughty, noisy and demanding behaviour!
 
Ah ok! Thanks for clarifying. I thought kitty was Ginger but then I saw Jebat in signature :). That's good if he's still standing and walking well! Means you've probably caught his diabetes earlier in the diagnosis. He could still have some mild symptoms of neuroapthy and some muscle loss in his hind legs, just keep an eye on his muscle mass. I noticed Maury's muscle mass had decreased but it's starting to come back :cat:. Are all the foods you are feeding lower carb? Less than 10%. He could be one of the more carb sensitive kitties. Once you consistently get AMPS and PMPS readings and any extra tests, he will probably need a dose increase. I can tag @JanetNJ since she is one of our experienced Vetuslin members :).
The sugar dance with our kitty's can be frustrating / depressing at times because we want them to feel better. But you have taken all the right steps to help him :bighug:
 
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