Weight loss in regulated cat part 5

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Hi @Marje and Gracie
I looked through the multi b vitamin list and they are either discontinued, found to contain chemicals not suitable for cats or have sugar which is not suitable for diabetic cats. I'm not sure which I should be buying.
The vet gave me wanse tablets which contain iron, folic acid and cyanocobalamin and I read that cyano is not good cos of the cyanide accumulation. It's mind boggling reading through all the literature.
Can I just buy the b12 methylcobalamine? My boy is still eating well.
As for the binder, the vet has given me the dosage to use. What's your dosing guideline?
 
@Yong
Do you have the formula to calculate the carbs content in a can of food? I can't seem to find it. I found a new brand of cat food from U.K. So am wondering if it's suitable.
Moisture 75%
Protein 10.5%
Oils n fats 10%
Crude fibre 0.5%
Inorganic matter 3.5%
Additives/kg - vit a 5300iu, vit d3 530iu, vit e 7.95mg, taurine 500mg, zinc sulphate monogydrate 151mg, ferrous sulphate monohydrate 35mg, manganese sulphate 16.5mg, sodium selenite 1.18mg, calcium iodate 0.84mg. @JanetNJ this food din seem to have phosphorus. If the carbs is low, I should be able to feed jebat?
 
Waheeda, Zobaline is good for neuropathy and does have Methyl B12 but it doesn't have a lot in it. You could see if your Vet is ok with giving some additional Methyl B12 with Zobaline since that does have folic acid to help absorb it better. Not like you can really overdose him on B12 anyways, they pee out excess.
Bronx's Dad uses these: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008NIHCZC/?tag=felinediabetesfdmb-20
If you can order them, you could add 1 of those with his Zobaline :)
What do you mean? Zobaline is 3mg... That's a lot! I used to give 2 500mcg pills a day which only equals 1 mg.... One zobaline would be 6 of the pills I used to give. 1000mcg=1mg
 
Hi @Marje and Gracie
I looked through the multi b vitamin list and they are either discontinued, found to contain chemicals not suitable for cats or have sugar which is not suitable for diabetic cats. I'm not sure which I should be buying.
The vet gave me wanse tablets which contain iron, folic acid and cyanocobalamin and I read that cyano is not good cos of the cyanide accumulation. It's mind boggling reading through all the literature.
Can I just buy the b12 methylcobalamine? My boy is still eating well.
As for the binder, the vet has given me the dosage to use. What's your dosing guideline?
Yes you can just buy b12 methylcobalamin. I buy capsules of it so I dont have to crush it. Just open the cap and sprinkle on.
 
@Yong
Do you have the formula to calculate the carbs content in a can of food? I can't seem to find it. I found a new brand of cat food from U.K. So am wondering if it's suitable.
Moisture 75%
Protein 10.5%
Oils n fats 10%
Crude fibre 0.5%
Inorganic matter 3.5%
Additives/kg - vit a 5300iu, vit d3 530iu, vit e 7.95mg, taurine 500mg, zinc sulphate monogydrate 151mg, ferrous sulphate monohydrate 35mg, manganese sulphate 16.5mg, sodium selenite 1.18mg, calcium iodate 0.84mg. @JanetNJ this food din seem to have phosphorus. If the carbs is low, I should be able to feed jebat?
Maybe drop their customer service a call or email and ask what the phosphorus count is.
 
What do you mean? Zobaline is 3mg... That's a lot! I used to give 2 500mcg pills a day which only equals 1 mg.... One zobaline would be 6 of the pills I used to give. 1000mcg=1mg
@JanetNJ
So if zobaline has lots of methyl and yet his red blood cell value is still low, it means I need to give him more?
 
I'll buy b12 methyl from the pharmacy here. 1000 counts. The zobaline was ordered from Amazon and it costs me $70+ (Us52) a bottle.
Ouch. Yeah I'd get it from the pharmacy too. This is the one I used. Vitacost Vitamin B-12 Methylcobalamin -- 5000 mcg - 60 Capsules https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006U8QZAK/?tag=felinediabetesfdmb-20


Eta... I used the 500 mcg not the 5000

Vitacost Vitamin B-12 Methylcobalamin -- 500 mcg - 300 Capsules https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0046IET7C/?tag=felinediabetesfdmb-20
 
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Wow 5000mcg. I can only find 1000mcg.
So I just get the vitacost n use with zobaline? No need additional methylcobalamin?
The vitacost IS b12 methylcobalamin. That's all it is.


The only difference between the vitacost brand and zobaline is Zobaline has folic acid.
 
@JanetNJ
They replied on the phosphorus and calcium count. Too high?
 

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@Yong
Do you have the formula to calculate the carbs content in a can of food? I can't seem to find it. I found a new brand of cat food from U.K. So am wondering if it's suitable.
Moisture 75%
Protein 10.5%
Oils n fats 10%
Crude fibre 0.5%
Inorganic matter 3.5%
Additives/kg - vit a 5300iu, vit d3 530iu, vit e 7.95mg, taurine 500mg, zinc sulphate monogydrate 151mg, ferrous sulphate monohydrate 35mg, manganese sulphate 16.5mg, sodium selenite 1.18mg, calcium iodate 0.84mg. @JanetNJ this food din seem to have phosphorus. If the carbs is low, I should be able to feed jebat?
It's a very vague calculation so the most accurate is going to be if you contact the company and ask for As-Fed values. But the rough carb content is 2% carbs :)
 
What do you mean? Zobaline is 3mg... That's a lot! I used to give 2 500mcg pills a day which only equals 1 mg.... One zobaline would be 6 of the pills I used to give. 1000mcg=1mg
It's mainly based on what I've heard people have been told by their Vet's for needing extra B12. Maybe 3000mcg (3mg) isn't sufficient for more than neuropathy assistance? I haven't looked into it myself, just what I've read around the forum
dontknow.gif
:)
 
It's a very vague calculation so the most accurate is going to be if you contact the company and ask for As-Fed values. But the rough carb content is 2% carbs :)
Thanks Yong! Anyway, the phosphorus is too high. No go for this food.
 
It's mainly based on what I've heard people have been told by their Vet's for needing extra B12. Maybe 3000mcg (3mg) isn't sufficient for more than neuropathy assistance? I haven't looked into it myself, just what I've read around the forum
dontknow.gif
:)
I only gave my cat 1 mg plus the b complex with iron and he went from 29 hct to 42 in 4 weeks.
 
T

Thanks @Marje and Gracie for your reply!
Wow that's quite lots of info to absorb.
His abdomen is a bit bloated so the vet thinks an ultrasound can detect if there's any liquid there which is also harmful cos it can push the diaphragm and affect the heart. I think for my peace of mind, I should go ahead and just check on the organs. It's not easy to arrange for a sonographer to come down.
So first thing to do is to push the phosphorus down. But I don't have BFF here. I'm in Singapore. I can buy online but it's gonna be so costly and I have to wait. Where do I get Tanya's food table?
I've got the phosphate binder from the vet. I've attached the photo. Is that good enough? It's flavourless and I read some reviews online and it's all positive. He's also on iron tablet now, 1 pill a day. The vet said if the red blood doesn't improve then mayb a transfusion is needed.
So u think I shouldn't do the sub q now? But he's so much more alert today after last night's sub q. He does drink about 2 cups full a day.
I would definitely get the ultrasound done.

I'm sorry to throw so much at you but CKD hasn't so many "moving parts". Right now, I would focus on getting the P level down and dealing with the anemia. Tanya's can be overwhelming and there is a lot to read. It's a steep learning curve.

Sorry...I read you all talking about BFF so I thought you had it. Here are Tanya's food tables for the U.K. I don't know if that means these brands are more likely available in Singapore. The only issue is she doesn't have the carbs on this table like she does the US table.

Yes...you can use the RX Vitamins for Pets Phos Bind. It is aluminum hydroxide powder. I didn't realize you already had it. So you're fine to use it. Just be sure you read what I left you on dosing because it's really important. If it were me, I'd go with the middle of the road on binder dosage to start with. That would be 60 mg/kg or 27 mg/lb of kitty weight for a P level at 7. A loosely packed 1/4 tsp of aluminum hydroxide is 300 mg. You don't have to be exact on aluminum hydroxide so don't worry if you get it a little more than loosely packed. If your kitty weighs 10 lbs, for example, I'd round up and give 1/4 tsp daily. I would just measure out the amount in the morning and sprinkle some on each meal and mix in just being sure that all is used by the end of the day. You should have his P levels rechecked 10-14 days after starting binder, and if it's not down, than the binder dose needs to go up.

If he will eat a lower P food, it's important that you do both...lower P food and binder. I have fought a similarly high P level in my first CKD cat and I can tell you that it is not easy. You can't just dump binder on any food and hope to make progress of the kind you need to make. Again....that's if he will eat a lower P food. If he will not, then you have to deal with what you have because the best food for a cat is the one it will eat and that is especially true for a CKD cat. Personally, I would not have used a binder to drop P from 4.5 down. You don't need binders until the P gets to around 6; low P food can keep the P level down below 4.5 if that's where the numbers are starting. But if the P level is starting at 6 or 7, it takes more effort to bring the numbers down to 4.5.

Also be aware that the binder can be constipating. I did not have this issue in any of my cats but ECID? It's also important that you and your vet monitor the MCV value in his labs since he is already anemic and use of aluminum hydroxide binders can affect this through aluminum toxicity. I've used binders for years in cats and not had an issue with aluminum toxicity but be aware. Watch for any drop in MCV.

I'm not surprised that he benefitted from a subq session and I'm also not saying he doesn't have pancreatitis or some other condition besides CKD that would benefit from temporary subq fluids. I'll let you read Tanya's on Subq fluids and you can decide. Again, for some other condition besides CKD, he might benefit from temporary subqs. But, sometimes, when kitties are stable with CKD, you could be giving fluids a very long time and you can build up scar tissue. One of my stable CKD cats got subqs daily for four years. So it's important to heed what is said on Tanya's about subqs for CKD.
Hi @Marje and Gracie
I looked through the multi b vitamin list and they are either discontinued, found to contain chemicals not suitable for cats or have sugar which is not suitable for diabetic cats. I'm not sure which I should be buying.
The vet gave me wanse tablets which contain iron, folic acid and cyanocobalamin and I read that cyano is not good cos of the cyanide accumulation. It's mind boggling reading through all the literature.
Can I just buy the b12 methylcobalamine? My boy is still eating well.
As for the binder, the vet has given me the dosage to use. What's your dosing guideline?
Cats cannot absorb cyanocobalamin orally and so it is usually given as an injection but this type of B12 helps with intestinal issues, not anemia. I am not familiar with those tablets but I feel it's just the iron you want because he is iron deficient, I'd look at some of the iron products on Tanya's under anemia. If you scroll way down on that page, she discusses iron deficiency and also the kind of treatment needed for anemia depending on the hematocrit. If he is not iron deficient, he doesn't need iron for the anemia.....he needs the B Vitamins. And if he has any kind of infection, he should not be getting iron.

The reason he also needs some kind of multiB is because B3, B6, B9, and B12 are all need for red blood cell regeneration and all will help with anemia. For all four of my CKD cats, I never had to do anything for anemia except give methylB12 and a multiB. Back then, the Jarrows BRight did not have the issue of P in the formula and none of my cats were diabetic. However, when my last CKD cat crossed, I sent the capsules I had made with the methylB12 and Jarrows to an FDMB member and it did not raise her cat's BG. When her cat crossed, she sent the remainder to another FDMB member and it also did not raise the BG. It's such a minuscule dose. Of more concern to me is the P becausemyou don't want to add more P when you are fighting P. I still don't believe the amount of P is that great because it's a tiny amount of multi B they get. It would only add 2.8mg of P per day. If it were me, I'd try to find some of the other products or find the older Jarrows without the phosphorus and if I couldn't, I'd just give the Jarrows. I don't think it will raise his P level but you can give more binder if necessary. If it raises his BG, you can tweak the insulin. But what is more difficult is if his HCT drops below 20% and you have to start erythropoietin stimulating agents. That's a whole different ballgame.

@JanetNJ
They replied on the phosphorus and calcium count. Too high?
You can't tell from this data. You need mg P/100 kcal or the percent on a dry matter basis.
Not sure... I know you want as close to 0.5 % or lower... Not good at the metric system. Lol

Are you on Facebook? There's a great group on the called Cats with Chronic Renal Failure. They are good at this sort of thing. do you know, @Marje and Gracie
I'm not familiar with this group. The one I belonged to and learned so much....they were amazing....was the yahoo cRF group. Whether members have moved over to FB or not, I'm not sure.

Another long post...I'm sorry and I hope I've answer your questions. Pls let me know.
 
I would definitely get the ultrasound done.

I'm sorry to throw so much at you but CKD hasn't so many "moving parts". Right now, I would focus on getting the P level down and dealing with the anemia. Tanya's can be overwhelming and there is a lot to read. It's a steep learning curve.

Sorry...I read you all talking about BFF so I thought you had it. Here are Tanya's food tables for the U.K. I don't know if that means these brands are more likely available in Singapore. The only issue is she doesn't have the carbs on this table like she does the US table.

Yes...you can use the RX Vitamins for Pets Phos Bind. It is aluminum hydroxide powder. I didn't realize you already had it. So you're fine to use it. Just be sure you read what I left you on dosing because it's really important. If it were me, I'd go with the middle of the road on binder dosage to start with. That would be 60 mg/kg or 27 mg/lb of kitty weight for a P level at 7. A loosely packed 1/4 tsp of aluminum hydroxide is 300 mg. You don't have to be exact on aluminum hydroxide so don't worry if you get it a little more than loosely packed. If your kitty weighs 10 lbs, for example, I'd round up and give 1/4 tsp daily. I would just measure out the amount in the morning and sprinkle some on each meal and mix in just being sure that all is used by the end of the day. You should have his P levels rechecked 10-14 days after starting binder, and if it's not down, than the binder dose needs to go up.

If he will eat a lower P food, it's important that you do both...lower P food and binder. I have fought a similarly high P level in my first CKD cat and I can tell you that it is not easy. You can't just dump binder on any food and hope to make progress of the kind you need to make. Again....that's if he will eat a lower P food. If he will not, then you have to deal with what you have because the best food for a cat is the one it will eat and that is especially true for a CKD cat. Personally, I would not have used a binder to drop P from 4.5 down. You don't need binders until the P gets to around 6; low P food can keep the P level down below 4.5 if that's where the numbers are starting. But if the P level is starting at 6 or 7, it takes more effort to bring the numbers down to 4.5.

Also be aware that the binder can be constipating. I did not have this issue in any of my cats but ECID? It's also important that you and your vet monitor the MCV value in his labs since he is already anemic and use of aluminum hydroxide binders can affect this through aluminum toxicity. I've used binders for years in cats and not had an issue with aluminum toxicity but be aware. Watch for any drop in MCV.

I'm not surprised that he benefitted from a subq session and I'm also not saying he doesn't have pancreatitis or some other condition besides CKD that would benefit from temporary subq fluids. I'll let you read Tanya's on Subq fluids and you can decide. Again, for some other condition besides CKD, he might benefit from temporary subqs. But, sometimes, when kitties are stable with CKD, you could be giving fluids a very long time and you can build up scar tissue. One of my stable CKD cats got subqs daily for four years. So it's important to heed what is said on Tanya's about subqs for CKD.

Cats cannot absorb cyanocobalamin orally and so it is usually given as an injection but this type of B12 helps with intestinal issues, not anemia. I am not familiar with those tablets but I feel it's just the iron you want because he is iron deficient, I'd look at some of the iron products on Tanya's under anemia. If you scroll way down on that page, she discusses iron deficiency and also the kind of treatment needed for anemia depending on the hematocrit. If he is not iron deficient, he doesn't need iron for the anemia.....he needs the B Vitamins. And if he has any kind of infection, he should not be getting iron.

The reason he also needs some kind of multiB is because B3, B6, B9, and B12 are all need for red blood cell regeneration and all will help with anemia. For all four of my CKD cats, I never had to do anything for anemia except give methylB12 and a multiB. Back then, the Jarrows BRight did not have the issue of P in the formula and none of my cats were diabetic. However, when my last CKD cat crossed, I sent the capsules I had made with the methylB12 and Jarrows to an FDMB member and it did not raise her cat's BG. When her cat crossed, she sent the remainder to another FDMB member and it also did not raise the BG. It's such a minuscule dose. Of more concern to me is the P becausemyou don't want to add more P when you are fighting P. I still don't believe the amount of P is that great because it's a tiny amount of multi B they get. It would only add 2.8mg of P per day. If it were me, I'd try to find some of the other products or find the older Jarrows without the phosphorus and if I couldn't, I'd just give the Jarrows. I don't think it will raise his P level but you can give more binder if necessary. If it raises his BG, you can tweak the insulin. But what is more difficult is if his HCT drops below 20% and you have to start erythropoietin stimulating agents. That's a whole different ballgame.


You can't tell from this data. You need mg P/100 kcal or the percent on a dry matter basis.

I'm not familiar with this group. The one I belonged to and learned so much....they were amazing....was the yahoo cRF group. Whether members have moved over to FB or not, I'm not sure.

Another long post...I'm sorry and I hope I've answer your questions. Pls let me know.
Thanks @Marje and Gracie ! Appreciate the info.
The only food I can find in that list is applaws which is more of a supplement. I just remembered a friend who has migrated to Melbourne so I will ask her to send over weruva. I think this will then help to bring down his phosphorus faster ?
I'll go to the pharmacy here and check on the multi b vits they have. Will get your views thereafter. I don't think the blood test indicates the level of iron and I doubt the vet knows. But if I were to give him what Janet recommended in her earlier reply, will that be ok? Otherwise I'll just buy multi b vit and see how he does with that. I really don't want to mess up his BG when he's doing so well.
 
The Nutrived does not have B3 and B9. The latter is important for anemia. Since B9 is folic acid, you can continue to give him the one you are giving, I guess, it would be nice if you can just give two products instead of three.
 
The Nutrived does not have B3 and B9. The latter is important for anemia. Since B9 is folic acid, you can continue to give him the one you are giving, I guess, it would be nice if you can just give two products instead of three.
Hi @Marje and Gracie
Found a vit b complex here with composition as in attached. It has b3, b6, b9 n b12. Should be ok to use? On top of this, I will also give him zobaline and the vet's iron tablet.
 
The Nutrived does not have B3 and B9. The latter is important for anemia. Since B9 is folic acid, you can continue to give him the one you are giving, I guess, it would be nice if you can just give two products instead of three.
Nutrived does have folic acid and niacin (b3)
IMG_5043.PNG
 
Looks good.


Thanks! The listing I had for it only showed the top B Vitamins.
@Marje and Gracie @JanetNJ
I found the vit b complex and also b12 methylcobalamin at the pharmacy! So now I have these 2 plus zobaline and the wanse iron tablets.
He eats about 4-5 times a day. So I divide the 1/4 tsp of binder equally and mix in his food. And at each meal I add in either the zobaline or iron tablet or vit b complex. Will this be ok? There won't be any reaction between the binder and the vitamins? No issue of too much vit b either am I right?
Did the ultrasound today. He behaved well and need not be sedated, thank god for that! He can be quite fierce at the vet. Result will be out tomorrow. Hopefully nothing serious. My heart can't take in another bad news.
 
@Marje and Gracie @JanetNJ
I found the vit b complex and also b12 methylcobalamin at the pharmacy! So now I have these 2 plus zobaline and the wanse iron tablets.
He eats about 4-5 times a day. So I divide the 1/4 tsp of binder equally and mix in his food. And at each meal I add in either the zobaline or iron tablet or vit b complex. Will this be ok? There won't be any reaction between the binder and the vitamins? No issue of too much vit b either am I right?
Did the ultrasound today. He behaved well and need not be sedated, thank god for that! He can be quite fierce at the vet. Result will be out tomorrow. Hopefully nothing serious. My heart can't take in another bad news.
Correct on the b12 that you can't overdose, but some b vitamins you can overdo I think
 
@JanetNJ @Yong @Kris & Teasel
So got his ultrasound result. I've attached it in case u know anyone who can help. It's either IBD or lymphoma of small intestine. I'm seeing the specialist on Tuesday. Anyone with such experience?
 

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@JanetNJ @Yong @Kris & Teasel
So got his ultrasound result. I've attached it in case u know anyone who can help. It's either IBD or lymphoma of small intestine. I'm seeing the specialist on Tuesday. Anyone with such experience?
I do... with both. I'll read them in a bit and give you some thoughts a little later. We are headed to a movie right now....sorry but thanks for your patience.
 
I don't have any experience either, Waheeda. I hate to tag you @Lisa and Smoky because I know you went through this with Smoky :bighug: but if you are up for it, do you have any information you can share? @JeffJ I believe is also dealing with this right now and using Chlorambucil as well. And @Lillie had to use it for her Leo's IBD I think.
 
I don't have any experience either, Waheeda. I hate to tag you @Lisa and Smoky because I know you went through this with Smoky :bighug: but if you are up for it, do you have any information you can share? @JeffJ I believe is also dealing with this right now and using Chlorambucil as well. And @Lillie had to use it for her Leo's IBD I think.
Thanks @Yong for the tags and @Marje and Gracie ya I can wait.
 
Small Cell Lymphoma (SCL) diagnosis and treatment
Leo had the ultrasound and it showed various symptoms about a month ago. The most distinguishing one was thickened intestinal walls and enlarged organs. We opted for direct biopsy thru surgery. The biopsies conclusively showed Small Cell Lymphoma (SCL) in lymph and intestines. Leo is now on:
> Chlorambucil (chemo) every other day
> Prednisolone (steroid)
> Insulin
> B12 weekly injection

He had an esophagus tube installed, but he resumed eating after the Pred started. SCL is treatable. The objective is to knock it into remission. There is nothing certain in the world. But we are treating and hoping. The prednisolone really stimulated his hunger again. Since treatment started he has re-become a normal sugar kitty. My objectives with insulin are to keep him "caloried" without hypo danger. So I am more conservative than many. Leo has an insulin plateau. If I go just over that plateau, his BG goes low real quick. So it is hard to have him in the 100-200 range. Besides all this shxt, he is just about the sweetest kitteh ever. (Spreadsheet tabs updated)
 

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Small Cell Lymphoma (SCL) diagnosis and treatment
Leo had the ultrasound and it showed various symptoms about a month ago. The most distinguishing one was thickened intestinal walls and enlarged organs. We opted for direct biopsy thru surgery. The biopsies conclusively showed Small Cell Lymphoma (SCL) in lymph and intestines. Leo is now on:
> Chlorambucil (chemo) every other day
> Prednisolone (steroid)
> Insulin
> B12 weekly injection

He had an esophagus tube installed, but he resumed eating after the Pred started. SCL is treatable. The objective is to knock it into remission. There is nothing certain in the world. But we are treating and hoping. The prednisolone really stimulated his hunger again. Since treatment started he has re-become a normal sugar kitty. My objectives with insulin are to keep him "caloried" without hypo danger. So I am more conservative than many. Leo has an insulin plateau. If I go just over that plateau, his BG goes low real quick. So it is hard to have him in the 100-200 range. Besides all this shxt, he is just about the sweetest kitteh ever. (Spreadsheet tabs updated)
Thanks @JeffJ for sharing.
Did the vet give you the option of endoscopy instead of a biopsy which is less invasive? How long is he on chemo? Any side effects? I'm seeing the specialist on tues. Any advice on questions I should be asking the specialist? My boy on top of diabetes also has cdk. He's actually off insulin for 3 days already and I hope this will continue. I hate to think the biopsy and chemo will mess up his bg.
 
Sure, no problem. There was not an endoscopy option with my vet. Plus there were multiple organs involved. Open surgery and multiple biopsies were the only way with Leo. He actually recovered from the surgery in "record time". And the stitches weren't that bad. A good side effect is that his belly was shaved and It Was So Soft :rolleyes:

The specialist will know what to look for. For SCL, I am not yet an expert. But I know this stuff below.
> Chemo can cause nausea, and there are drugs that can help offset this. For Leo, this has not been an issue.
> The chemo did not mess up his bg much. The prednisolone causes BG rises, so you have to compensate with insulin.
> SCL, if caught early, can respond to chemo. It can go into remission.
> Cats don't lose their fur from the chemo. For Leo, he seems to be sweeter.:)
> Chemo is pretty cheap, ~$60 for 2 months. Compared to other costs, that is nothing.

I think the chemo is given for months. And Leo may be on it for the rest of his life to combat the SCL. At this point we measure Complete Blood Count (CBC) to measure the effectiveness of the chemo. White blood cells are focused on. Some cats don't make it. Our vet tech's cat only made it a few months on chemo. Our veterinarian had a cat on chemo for 3 or 4 years. With this realization, we make sure we give Leo extra time every day - laptime, extra brushing, some cat gravy, and more rub downs.

Leo is on Every Other Day (EOD) chemo. He has mild nausea all the time. But it doesn't affect him that much. I was heavily recommended by another forum to do Every Other Week (EOW) chemo. You dose really high one or two days in a row, then for 10 days there is reduced nausea. My vet is familiar with both and we are on EOD.
 
Thanks @JeffJ. Your 2 cats look exactly like my first 2. My sugar kitty is the ginger tabby.
My vet said the ultrasound shows it could either be IBD or lymphoma but I have a feeling it's the latter. So I just need to administer the medicine at home? Grind into food? He has b12 and phosphate binder in his food already so I'm afraid he may just not want to eat if he smells or tastes sth different. I feel so sorry that he has so many medical conditions all at once. And he needs a dental soon too. I'm worried sick thinking about his treatments. I just hope he's not in pain and I'm doing the right thing for him.
 
Well, let's wait and see the final diagnosis. He may not need chemo. In Leo's case I had a pharmacy compound it into a liquid. So he gets a squirt in the mouth, then his favorite food right after that. SCL is not painful, it is a slow growing cancer and is treatable.

Ginger kittehs are the best. We had Little Buddy (19 pounds) from 1996 - 2005. Now we have Little Dude who was feral last year. We slowly tamed him, and now he is a luv bug.
 

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In 2012, my Gracie
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showed some very mild intestinal thickening on an ultrasound. She had no symptoms but her semi annual labs indicated her liver values were mildly elevated so my vet had me take her to an internal medicine specialist, who is supposed to be renowned in intestinal issues, for an u/s. I asked him if she could have IBD or lymphoma and he said because she had no clinical signs, that he was certain the intestinal thickening was related to the liver. Her liver values came down but, for some odd reason, every summer, they went up. Clinically, she remained fine with just occasional scarf and barf vomiting. Her intestinal thickness remained the same and so we did this for three years with no changes in her u/s. He assured me that if she had IBD or lymphoma, we'd be seeing clinical signs and the thickness would worsen.

Finally in July, 2015, she started losing weight and her bilirubin went up. He talked me into endoscopy which I wish I had never, ever done. Yes....many cats have no issues with it and many cats have no issues with exploratory surgery. But she did. I had gotten her stable and doing well all around when we did the endoscopy and it was a slow slide downhill after that. Everything changed. I, personally, believe he somehow weakened her intestines in one of the biopsy samples he took but I have no proof.

Her biopsy came back as IBD but the UofA lab always sends all IBD positive samples to UC Davis for PCR and the result of that was small cell lymphoma. I wanted to start her on budesonide, not prednisilone because I felt, even though it is not part of the protocol for SCL, it would be easier on her. But the oncologist and the IM specialist felt the pred and chemo were a better choice.

The pred caused a weakening in her heart (which can be a side effect and all of her previous echoes showed her heart to be totally normal). I think it also contributed to an erosion in the weak spot in her intestines. Ten days after I started the steroid, I lost her to a spontaneous bowel perforation.

What would I do differently? I would not have done the endoscopy. I would have assumed SCL and treated for it with pulse dosing of leukeran (chlorambucil) and budesonide. There is a SCL group in yahoo and the IM vet who often posts there and works with members of that group said, even though there is no research to show that budesonide and leukeran together can treat SCL, for a FD, he would do it. I wish I had done that and taken whatever time I could have had.

Gracie's liver was normal as was her pancreas. It appears that the IM specialist had it backwards....it was the IBD that was affecting her liver values. She would likely still be alive today if I had started treating the IBD with budesonide in 2012. It could have kept the lymphoma at bay for longer although it is generally thought now that with an IBD cat, it's not "if" he or she will progress to SCL, it's "when".

I am not trying to discourage you from doing endoscopy or even exploratory surgery. I just want you to know of the other risks. I'm sure that what happened with Gracie is fairly rare but @Wendy&Neko treated both her cats, FD Neko and nonFD Theo, in the more conservative manner by not doing endoscopy or exploratory surgery and I think she is glad she went that route.

I do know of some kitties that have gone into remission with SCL for a couple years. The main issue I see without a biopsy is knowing if you are treating large cell lymphoma or SCL. They are entirely different beasts. LCL typically has lymph node involvement which is seen less in SCL. Also, typically with LCL, tumors will be present. However, ECID. LCL has to have a more aggressive chemo treatment and it does not go into remission that I am aware of. The prognosis is not usually too good for LCL (I did have a kitty with LCL and even with chemo, she did not live long).

I would join the FB IBDkitties and also the FB Raw Feeding for IBD Kitties groups. They are both great although I think the latter is much more active and you don't have to be feeding raw to post or learn a lot. You can also get a lot of info from IBDkitties website.

I would encourage you to go to the yahoo groups and join either the LCL or SCL groups. The members of the LCL group are friendlier and they welcome SCL cat caregivers. But both groups have an amazing amount of info and help and if Dr. Jory posts, there is a lot of good information from him. You could join both so you can access the info from the SCL group but post in the other, if you like.

There are different protocols for the chemo. My neighbor is currently dealing with SCL in her kitty, Sophie. She has been through two long rounds of chemo and they really seemed to zap her each time. They had issues with appetite; she became more lethargic, and she lost a lot of weight. She did go into a very brief remission after the first round. They have now stopped all chemo and are just doing palliative care. Her appetite has picked up but they know it is short lived.

I hope this helps.
 
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Nice summary Marje. I didn't know all that about your kitteh.

I was welcomed into the SCL group. However they heavily pushed the EOW dose, and at least a couple of them were discouraged when I went with EOD (every other day) dosing. So a bit of help there, but also some negativity. They do in fact have a lot of good info on their wiki about cancer, SCL, and treatments.
 
I was unlucky enough to have two kitties with GI issues at the same time. Civie Theo did not have endoscopy or surgical biopsy because his vet is not into invasive surgery unless necessary. Plus he had periodic ultrasounds, and that is supposed to be almost as good as surgery to determine what is happening. He was on pred and pulsed Leukeran, and went into remission for about a year, until he was taken by pancreatic cancer.

Kitty Neko had a heart condition that precluded anesthesia, so she could not have a biopsy or endoscopy. At this point she was going to a specialist because she was too complicated for her regular vet. She had diabetes from acromegaly, kidney disease as well as the heart issue (HCM and CHF) and either severe IBD or lymphoma. The treatment would have been the same in both GI conditions. She was on budesonide because her heart could not take prednisolone. We started out EOD Leukeran, but changed to pulsed because she was nauseated all the time on EOD. Pulsed, which is once every two weeks, gave both her and me a break. You do have to get the dose right. The IM started her on a slightly higher dose than i thought she should be (after consulting the oncologist), and sure enough, her red blood count tanked. Once she was on the right dose, her blood counts were fine, or as fine as they could be with her kidney issues. She had 4 days of nausea followed by 10 OK days.

I learned a lot from the SCL group. They do go a little overboard on pushing for the endoscopy/biopsy IMHO. I know you should have a diagnosis before treatment, but most of the kitties who have these conditions are older and can have other things wrong with them. Civie Theo had his first ultrasound two days after Marie's Gracie did. Marje and I compared a lot of notes during the journey. Needless to say, I was very reluctant to have surgery after what happened to her. Thankfully Theo's vet shared my concerns. She was also very open to learn and we were her first client on pulsed Leukeran. Which I think was better for him too. He didn't seem to be nauseous, or at worst very mild. A little ondansetron took care of it. Neko, on the other hand, ended up needing both ondansetron and Cerenia.

Food becomes challenging. Neko needed low carb, low phosphorus, low salt. Raw fit the bill until she stopped eating it. For her it might have been a texture issue. She had soft tissue growth in her mouth from the acromegaly that I couldn't get treated because it required anesthesia. Finding canned foods that met the requirements and she would eat was tough. I would add a good quality probiotic to the food.
 
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