We are upset!

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SammieSue & Ms Morgan

Member Since 2013
Hello,
I am new to this message board, but my husband and I have been treating our 12 yr old family fur-ball since 1/2013; We question if our beloved family member is being treated correctly?
First off, we were told she was diabetic after taking her for a yearly visit, with symptoms of increased urine and lethargy since the following winter, her glucose was 532 with the initial reading, after a month of giving her 1unit of PZ q 12hrs subq she is was down to 281, urination has returned to normal since this time along with her appetite and energy level. The Vet has told us that once a cat is diabetic that they will have to be on insulin for the "rest of their life", also we have been led to believe that she will die if we take her off the insulin. Now, please keep this important point in mind: Patches is not cooperative with strangers, becomes incredibly stressed with any medical attention to the point she hisses and pees on the staff, usually I have to put a muzzle on her and they will test her sugar afterwards. The only people in this world she will even let give her affection is myself and my husband. The Vets office was well aware of this fact before this happened....
This past summer we took her for a 12hr bsg test, left her at the Vet's office all day, they had my cell phone and my husband's cell phone to call if any problems arose: Patches was fine, even somewhat friendly to the staff on the day we set up the testing, but still not compliant. When I went to pick her up after work, having received no phone calls or texts messages from my husband. I thought that the day had a been a good day for her, no problems. Wrong!
The moment I walked into the office, the two Techs had told me that my baby was "very upset" and that they did "decide not to charge me for their scrubs" because apparently the one Vet Tech had to change since Patches peed on her. I did not say anything, normally these people are incredibly kind and we have a report...but SERIOUSLY!!
So, then I am told that they "are afraid to touch her" and "that you have to come back and get her out and into the carrier".
I am then led into the pen area with four cages, Patches sees me but does not recognize me at all, that is the best way I know how to describe the wide eyed, look of sheer terror in my poor cat's eyes! I was not offered any protective gear, gloves, a gown, etc. Naturally, they opened up the cage and then stepped back and watched me. Please note, the two Vet Techs did not offer to help at all during this and the one actually left the room. The Veterinarian was in with a patient so I do not believe they knew what is going on. I felt that I had no other choice but to attempt to get her out of the cage, stayed calm and started to try to get Patches into our carrier. My cat proceeded to literally go completely feral, hissing, scratching and of course biting. The first bite I barely felt, it happened so fast: then the tech in the room offered me a pair of heavy duty gloves, while I was little dripping blood but of course I could not wear the gloves and because they had no way to keep my blood from soiling them, no exam latex or latex free exam gloves were available?? Truthfully, I have been raised to keep my anger in check, I was fighting tears, I was soo angry and upset to see Patches like this, I actually started telling the tech to stay back. What I was thinking was, How the hell have you made it in this field, and boy you two are completely incompetent how dare you torture my cat!!
This event was very horrific, traumatic and sad, I was bitten and scratched to the point I had small avulsions, puncture wounds and tears in my hand and arm and am now permanently scarred. Patches was completely lethargic, labored breathing, reclusive and walked with a limp for that night and the day after. Afterwards, I also had to wipe down my steering wheel, car seat and car door due to the amount I was bleeding. I sent a electronic letter of concern with a description of what happened, No one ever called me back or even apologized for what we went through.
I took pictures of my wounds and have them saved them on my hard drive, I am not sure what to do with those? Luckily I was already on an antibiotic, but they did not even offer one; the Vet Techs also attempted to rush me out the door, mind you while I was bleeding, they offered me a towel, but as a nurse if you cannot handle my cat how can you treat me? Patches may not trust or like strangers, but she does not bite and scratch, she runs into the bedroom and does not come out until family and friends have left, she hides from Delivery drivers; This the first time since she was 4 months old that I have ever seen her act this way, EVER.
To make matters worse, to this day they also have not been able to provide me with the results of the testing that day at all, all I know is that the last reading was 350, well I am a nurse. Common sense can tell you that during times of extreme stress, your bsg will be effected..so how accurate would the readings actually be? I also asked why was the testing not stopped when she became like that? I was told that they left a message, uh..nothing on my cell phone and oh wait..nothing on my husband's cell either...well maybe this is just me..but if an animal is getting that worked up..why would you keep poking and prodding?? She was no where near critical in health, this was not life or death..so the fact that they "tried to call us" does not cut it with us. Also, so we are supposed to keep injecting our family member with one unit of insulin, she hisses and now attacks the pet carrier on site, this is new behavior go figure. And Why the hell would we put her through that again!! Are all Veterinarians like this?
After all of this, she was placed 2 units q 12hrs, while on 2units her hunger increased ten fold and she was drinking like a siv. After 4 weeks, I dropped her back down to 1unit, she is back to her self normal now. We have not contacted the Vet's office because frankly we are at a loss and have no faith in them; plus after reading this forum and studies online...there is Feline Diabetic Remission?? WTF!!
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
Bae
 
Wow... Welcome to FDMB, the best place you never wanted to be. So sorry you had to go thru that, wth were they thinking? ... nm, they obviously weren't. I don't especially love my vet, but compared to yours..... maybe mine isn't so bad :shock:
I'm one of the new folks around here as well, but there are some amazingly helpful, experienced people on this board, you have found a goldmine of information/help. Yes cats can go into remission, their pancreas can heal... under certain circumstances of course.

A few of the things they will/might want to know are :
What is your name?
Are you home-testing her bg?
If not, are you interested in learning how? You said you're a nurse, I'm guessing this will not be hard for you
What food is Patches eating?
What insulin is Patches on?
Does she have any other known health issues?

Possibly some other things, but I figured this would get you started until one of them shows up with the good info :)
 
Welcome. Sorry about this torment at the vet's office! My BFF has a cat that needs to be sedated when he goes to the vet (not an FD cat) but really! My first suggestion is contact them and nicely demand a copy of all records, including any blood tests, urine tests, etc that they have done on your cat. You have a right to the reports you paid for.

update your info under your name ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->>>>>>>>
with your city and state if you can. Maybe someone on this board lives in your area and can recommend a better vet.
Yes, cats can go in remission. My Cedric went into remission in 2011 after being on Lantus (a human insulin) for a month. Other changes occurred to put him in that place: I changed his food, removing all dry (even the grain free, high protein, low carb) and started giving him 4 small meals a day. I use an auto feeder with an ice pack in it and give him a cold portion and a frozen portion in it. Cedric had pancreatitis in Aug 2012, and when his BGs were a bit high in February, he went back on Lantus. In May, I switched him to Levemir, another human insulin. He had another accute pancreatitis attach in July and is recovering, but still on insulin. My cat is a bit young, dx'd at age 5 and he turned 8 last Thursday. He takes it like a trooper though.

Are you using ProZinc? I thought that might be what you were saying near the beginning of your post.
You have found the right place! :YMHUG:
 
Bae - sorry you and Patches had such a horrible experience.

Here is some information you may find enlightening -

You will see that most of us on this board test our cats BG levels at home - we call it home testing. it is quite easy to do and something that we highly recommend. After all, it is the only way to keep the cat safe.

Sadly many vets don't tell clients about this, recommend it and some even forbid it. Why, well I just don't know there are so many reasons why vets do this and quite frankly it is a shame.

If you are open to it, we can help teach you how to home test and you will never need to take her back to spend the day at the vet for BG testing.

You can do this on a budget too. Here is a shopping to get started:

1. Meter ie Walmart Relion Confirm or Micro*
2. Matching strips
3. Lancets - little sticks to poke the ear to get blood . new members usually start with a larger gauge lancet such as 28g or 29g until the ear learns to bleed. Optional - lancing tool.
4. Neosporin or Polysporin ointment with pain relief to heal the wound (can use generic brand)
5. Mini flashlight (optional) - useful to help see the ear veins in dark cats, and to press against
7. Ketone urine test strips ie ketodiastix - Important to check ketones when blood is high
8. Treats for the cat - like freeze dried chicken, even rotisserie chicken, deli chicken, canned tuna will work
9. Karo syrup/table syrup, honey or any sugar product like jam, jelly, etc. if you dont have it at home - for hypo emergencies to bring blood sugar up fast -
10. A couple of cans of fancy feast gravy lovers or other high carb gravy food- for hypo emergencies to bring blood sugar up fast


* We suggest the Relion meter and matching strips from Walmart, as they are the most economically priced meter and strips. If you don't want this, you can purchase any brand meter with matching strips that sip and only require a small amount of blood - I use Bayer Contour and One Touch Ultra for example. In the past, I had problems with meter that has TRU in the name.


OK, ready for the intro to feline diabetes? :-D

There are three key factors to managing diabetes: food/nutrition, home testing and insulin

1) Feline Nutrition: Now, as far as diet - definitely dump the dry food (if you are feeding any) and if the vet recommends purchasing prescription food like DM just say "no thank you". ALL cats, and especially those with diabetes, do best on a species appropriate diet that is high in protein and low in carbs. Dry food DOES NOT fit that bill and DM food, even canned, just really isn't that great as far as quality. Most here on FDMB feed low carb/high protein canned, raw bought from a pet store or they make there own.

Here is a link to a site by a vet "Dr. Lisa DVM" ... who also posts on this board from time to time ... http://www.catinfo.org

If you look on the right side of her site, she has a food comparison chart to help you figure out what food you want to get based on the carb %.

You want to keep the carb % below 10% and around 7% is great. (Personally, I stay between 0-6% carbs.)

While on her site, you can read about in-depth info. on nutrition and how to make raw food, etc.

Here is another link that will give more information about food/nutrition

Nutrition/food info

The good thing with feeding your diabetic cat this way, is that it is ALSO good for any non-diabetic cat too. All your cats can safely eat the same food without worry and it may save you some costs and headaches of having to do separate feedings and keeping track of what they are eating.


2. Home testing: It is impossible to convey the value of testing your cat's BG (blood glucose) level at home. Some vets will "suggest" this, but most won't even mention it. They will send you home with insulin and an amount to shoot and maybe some instructions about hypoglycemia (blood sugar dropping to a dangerously low level).

Well, the thing is, human diabetics don't EVER give themselves insulin without checking there BG to make sure it is safe to do so, so why shouldn't it be the same for our kitties. Here on FDMB it is. You will notice that the vast majority of people here test their cat's BG at least 2x/day (before giving each shot to make sure the level is safe enough) and periodically at other times to see how the cat is responding to the current dose. We use a human glucometer, test strips and lancets - which are all very readily available and easy to use.

Our kitties get lots of love and treats for "putting up" with this and most of them actually come out to be tested on their own 'cause they want those treats . Here is a collection of great links that "Carolyn and Spot" pulled together about hometesting. See what you think ... it truly is the best way to not only keep Your cat safe but also really get a handle on this disease and help him to live a healthy life with FD (feline diabetes).

Home testing Links

Are you willing to learn how to home test? If you are, then we have plenty of resources to help you.

3. Insulin: Well you are already using Prozinc and that's an excellent insulin.

We recommend following a start low, go slow approach - meaning start at a low dose, 1 unit or less and slowly over time (several cycles) adjust the dose by 0.25 or 0.50 increments only. This ensures that you don't skip over the ideal dose.

Insulin Support Groups

However, one caveat and again this shows how these three things are inter-related:

If you are feeding dry food or even a high carb food, BEFORE removing these foods, please make sure of your insulin dose as it will most likely need to be reduced, so as to avoid a possible hypoglycemic situation due to the removal of the dry/high carb foods that will lower the BG’s and reduce the amount of insulin required. Again, another reason why home testing is important.

I know this all seems like a lot, and that's because it is ... there is a learning curve here. But as long as you are determined and keep at it, you will have it down before you know it and you'll be seeing the results in Your cat's overall health and happiness. Ask all the questions you can think of - that's why we are here!
 
Don't worry, you are in the right place! I'm also new at this, my cat was diagnosed last month, and my vet gave me the Rx for Lantus with instructions to bring him back in a week for his BG curves. She's still waiting for him..... I bought the Reli One, changed them to canned food (special kitty, Wal Mart's brand) and he's been controlled for 5 days now with no insulin! Read as much as you can from the site, they are my virtual friends already!
 
Thank you All So Very Much,

My name is actually, Samantha, Patches actual name is Morgan, at 12yr black tortie, she has no other health issues at this time.
*** I do apologize about changing our names but I did not feel safe posting them at first; I do not want to completely black ball the Vet practice either so that is another reason I changed our names in the post.***
Just a bit more background on my experience with cats; I have actually had Felines as part of the family since i was little, we always had anywhere from two to six cats at a time. I have also had Morgan to other Vets in the past with no incident, she was never "happy" about it, but she was treatable as long as I am there with her. The only reason we switched to a State College Vet was because our current one was 40 minutes away.
No, we are not doing any home bsg testing at this time, because we were told we had to draw her blood from a hind leg vein, and also we were told that we could not use a human bsg meter that we would have to use a specific cat/dog meter that is very pricey :?
Now, I would love to learn how to test her sugar here at home, especially after our experience. Yes, we are giving her ProZinc, I dropped her back to 1 unit twice daily, she is as playful as ever, hunger is back to her normal, we feed both our of cats, twice daily-one can of Friskies wet flaked, bits or shredded. Unfortunately, we are not rolling in dough so we cannot afford the specialty DM we cat food. Also, even after trying Science Diet and other DM wet cat foods, this is the only wet Cat Food on the market that they do no throw up. Also, since the last reading of 350 we have stopped giving 1/4 cup of kibble for both cats to share during the day. Morgan and Rummy have adjusted, there is no constant begging just the mewing and leg rubs around meal time.
We live in State College, PA and have considered switching Vets, but I question the logic of forcing her into a carrier, now I am afraid that she would try to attack anyone else we take her to, in the past she would only growl and hiss, now I am not so sure. You can just look at my hand and arm. Also, I will have to admit that I am afraid of going thru that again, for her and myself. My husband was at home and luckily did not have to witness what happened, but he is seriously pissed and has no faith in any Vet at this time, we argue because she is naturally anti-social, that we would be forced into the same situation again and put her through more hell. We both want her to be healthy, but we do not want her stroking out either.
Thank you for the links as well!!
Again, I do sincerely apologize for not giving her real name at first, it may sound stupid but, we had this experience with them, does not mean everyone else has and I do not like to bad mouth people, but I did not where to turn or how to handle this.
 

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Samantha,

No apologies needed. This is the internet after all and privacy is a huge concern. there are others here who don't use their real names and even changed their cat's name too. Although I have to wonder if the cat needs to be incatnito -- :lol: :lol

Yup for the vets that do talk about home testing, they usually say you must use an animal meter and not a human one. If you buy an animal meter - you buy it from the vet and they make a commission on the sale of the meter and strips - it tends to become quite expensive and what ends up happening is that you are low or out of strips and the vet is closed and you are stuck. Oh did I mention how expensive they are.

You can do this economically with human meters - relion brand from walmart is the cheapest by far and strips are always available.

when bg testing we test the ear edge not the leg or neck. some people are unable to test the ear edge and do test the paw pad.

Here is a link and video to help you understand how to test the ear.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13c_ ... PPhEag/pub

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=287

and I think we have some people in the state college area, who may be able to recommend a vet to use. May I suggest that you go back to your original post on this thread and change the subject line to read - Newbie in State College PA - looking for vet recommendations

take a look at the links, go shopping and let us know how else we can help you help Morgan.

and welcome to the group!
 
Welcome Samantha and Morgan! ....shhhhh...we won't tell.... :-D

What a horrible experience for ALL of you! As I'm sure you've discovered by now, there is a HUGE WEALTH of info here on this site PLUS lots of us with not only sugarcats but other cats/dogs too....some with other medical issues, some healthy! The only 'treatment' our vet gives for both KT and Dakota's diabetes is to write scripts yearly for our Lantus insulin. Other than that, we do everything here at home just like humans. We test using human meters - they don't read exactly like the vet's but it's easy to adjust a number by adding 30 points to it. We're truly watching for trends and sudden BG # drops that need a 'piece of candy'.

BIG HUGE HUGS!!! I'm glad you found us!!
 
Just to clarify what Squeaky wrote, is that yes, while there is a difference between the animal and human meter. We don't tweak or adjust the number on any meter. The number is accurate and depending on whether you use human or animal meter the ranges for hypo, normal and high will differ.

I "borrowed" the following excerpt from BJM:

Here are some glucose reference ranges used for decision making using glucometers. Human glucometer numbers are given first. Numbers in parentheses are for non-US meters. Numbers in curly braces are estimates for an AlphaTrak (animal meter).

< 40 mg/dL (2.2 mmol/L) {< 70 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- Treat as if HYPO if on insulin
- At nadir (lowest point between shots) in a long term diabetic (more than a year), may earn a reduction.

< 50 mg/dL (2.8 mmol/L) {< 80 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- If before nadir, steer with food, ie, give modest amounts of medium carb food to keep from going below 50 (2.8).
- At nadir, often indicates dose reduction is earned.

50 - 130 mg/dL (2.8 - 7.2 mmol/L) {80 - 160 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- On insulin - great control when following a tight regulation protocol.
- Off insulin - normal numbers. (May even go as low as the upper 30s (1.7 mmol/L){60s for an AlphaTrak}; if not on insulin, this can be safe.

> 150 mg/dL (8.3 mmol/L) {> 180 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- At nadir, indicates a dose increase may be needed when following a tight regulation protocol.

200 mg/dL (11.1 mmol/L) {230 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- no shot level for beginners; may slowly reduce to 150 mg/dL (8.3 mmol/L) {180 mg/dL} for long-acting insulins (Lantus, Levemir, and ProZinc) as data collection shows it is safe

180 - 280 mg/dL (10 - 15.6 mmol/L) {may be 210 - 310 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}
- Any time - The renal threshold (depending on data source and cat's renal function) where glucose spills into the urine.
- Test for ketones, glucose is too high.

>= 280 mg/dL (15.6 mmol/L) {may be >=310 mf/dL for an AlphaTrak}, if for most of the cycle between shots
- Uncontrolled diabetes and thus at risk for diabetic ketoacidosis and hepatic lipidosis
- Follow your insulin protocol for dose adjustments
- Test for ketones; if more than a trace level of ketones, go to vet ASAP.

Make sense?
 
Hi Samantha and sugarkitty Morgan and welcome to the message board.

{{{{{Big, Big Hugs }}}}}

That is certainly a vet horror story. So sorry you and your cat had to go through that.

You told us you are feeding the Friskies shredded, bits, flaked style foods. Those are a little higher in carbs than we like to see, but at this point, until you are home testing the BG (blood glucose), it's safest to keep feeding those same foods.

Once you are home testing, you can think about gradually changing over to the pate style foods of Friskies. Most cats will eat those, with some encouragement and transitioning tips.

Hon, we will try to help you the best we can. Lots of knowledge and experience here to help you. Hang in there. We'll get you through this and get you and your kitty Morgan feeling better.

Deep breath, hold, release, deep breath, hold, release, deep breath, hold, release.
 
On a totally unrelated note from diabetes. In the event of an emergency, you might need her to go in a carrier. Right now, you might not be able to do that and you would have to leave her behind.

To help her unlearn the horrible experience she had, scrub the carrier so it doesn't have any residual odor from that situation. Give it a spritz or two of some Feliway. Put a nice comfy towel in it, then just set it in a place where she likes to sleep. Occasionally, pop a bit of catnip in it, or a favored toy.

Once she's willing to sleep in it occasionally, then begin with small steps such as shutting the door for a few moments, then opening it, gradually increasing the time. Always give her a treat after working with her on this, and take your time. Add in picking it up and putting it down. Then add walking with it, and so on. Just little steps which build to her being comfortable in the carrier again.
 
OMG!! Thank you all so much!! I cannot begin to tell you how much your support and feedback mean to me :-D


Deb & Wink: Yes, unfortunately the Friskies is a little more, but they cannot keep down Science Diet, Fancy Feast, Whiskas, Wellness, Halo..and the list can go on. We have to keep a stocked supply of carpet cleaning on hand.. :YMSIGH: Deep breath and healing process starting...on that note: Morgan is very cooperative and well behaved with her injections; I point at the floor, she lays down, I give her the injection and then we share nuzzles and kisses. :)

Now, I am going to start reading the links and doing some glucometer pricing, buy some Feliway at Petco and get the ball rolling. I guess in case of emergency it would be a towel grab and hold on for dear life until we would make it to the car for the time being. Unfortunately, I have had to do this in the past with other cats.

Not completely happy with the picture of Morgan, I am unable to size it down enough for a profile pic. :(
 
Another thought - when you go shopping, pick up a harness and leash - make sure it fits her properly - this way if you do have an emergency and can't get her in the carrier, you can harness and leash her and carry her that way. It is much safer than just wrapping in a towel and carrying, you have a bit more control.
 
The Feliway is also sold on Amazon. I have the plug in because Cedric likes it and I buy the refills online - it's cheaper. You can pick up the spray that was mentioned at Petsmart (i was in there yesterday). I have been hesitant to use that because I get migraines easily and am afraid that I might be able to smell it. My non-fd gets car sick and is difficult in the car.

I have to say I am a PennState alum, but lived on campus in the late 1980s so no vets to recommend in the area. :smile: You might want to take out the phone book and start calling around, asking what their experience with Feline Diabetes is until you find one that you might like.

Is there a Wal-mart in Happy Valley? If not, I agree about what someone said about One Touch Ultra. I have one that I got for free from my endocrinologist (I have a bad thyroid) but the strips are more expensive than the Reli-on Micro. Since Wal-mart is down the street....but my vet would prefer I use the One Touch, since the numbers are closer to the animal meter who's name is not popping into my head....
 
Check my signature link for Vet Interview Topics if you go vet hunting.

Had a thought - does the vet know what happened, or was it the techs? You might ask to speak to the vet or write a letter. Sometimes, folks don't tell the boss the whole story...
 
Hello and welcome to the board!

Sorry to hear about all the trouble you have been having but you are in the right place here.

Once you get home testing you might want to try one of these foods - they are all good for diabetic cats and regulation/possible remission and there is certain friskies flavours on here too http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=94685


Wendy

PS Hillary and Mauis post way above has a shopping list for meters etc - and she mentions the cheap and reliable Walmart brands.
 
What Dian said. Plus, there is a step by step post in the Tech Support forum on how to get an avatar sized picture in your user control panel Profile. Avatars. See the 3rd post down in this link.
 
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