vitamins
- Thread starter gobismom
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Ry & Scooter
Member Since 2011
I took a quick look and couldn't find any without sugar either. I don't know if it is common place to give cats multivitamins - most foods are 100% nutritionally complete.
But - maybe we should get to the root of the problem first.
Are you treating him for his diabetes?
If so, what insulin are you using? What dose?
Are you testing his blood glucose at home?
What kind of food is he eating?
Does he have any other health issues?
Diabetic cats (especially unregulated ones) cannot process the food they are eating so they may need to eat more than usual to keep the weight on.
But - maybe we should get to the root of the problem first.
Are you treating him for his diabetes?
If so, what insulin are you using? What dose?
Are you testing his blood glucose at home?
What kind of food is he eating?
Does he have any other health issues?
Diabetic cats (especially unregulated ones) cannot process the food they are eating so they may need to eat more than usual to keep the weight on.
I took Gobi to the vet on 4/16/12 because he was losing weight. The vet drew blood. The following day I was told Gobi was a diabetic. I give him 3 units in the am and 3 units in the pm of Humulin n. I feed Gobi Fancy Feast classic. I do keep dry food out but Gobi prefers the FF, he eats very little dry. However I was looking at his blood results and I did notice SGOT and SGPT are high. I will have to look into it.I just wish Gobi would put on some weight. Everything else seems normal. He is alert,he even runs when I am serving his FF.
Ry & Scooter
Member Since 2011
Thanks so much for your response! It looks like you have a vet who is really out of date on feline diabetes treatment. But don't worry - you've come to the best place for your kitty. We can arm you with a ton of updated knowledge and get you on the right track to treating Gobi's diabetes and getting some weight back on him.
There are a few issues I can see right off the bat with the treatment plan the vet's given you!
1. We do not recommend Humulin N insulin. It is short acing (only about 6-8 hours duration) and it causes a harsh and fast drop. We really recommend Lantus, Levemir, and Prozinc insulins. These last much longer (the full 12h) and are much less harsh. You should talk to your vet about switching - we can arm you with a TON of vet documents that state why these 3 insulins are far better than Humulin N if they are stubborn!
2. 3u is a pretty big dose. Was he given that dose right off the bat, or did they slowly work up to that? Because of the short acting insulin and high dose, Gobi's blood glucose is probably on a wild roller coaster ride.
3. We don't recommend feeding ANY dry food to diabetics. HOWEVER. Because your cat is on a high dose of 3u, I do NOT recommend completely removing the dry. Carbohydrate consumption causes increased blood sugar - if you take that dry away, depending on how high carb it is (some dry foods are 40% carbs), his blood glucose could PLUMMET and if you shoot 3u into that, you might be looking at a potential hypoglycemia situation. Which leads me to...
4. We are strong advocates of home testing here. You know how diabetic humans poke their fingers and test their blood glucose? We do that to our kitties too, just with their ears instead. It's relatively easy and gives us more information on how they are handling the insulin, if a dose increase/decrease is needed, and it'll also help you avoid any potential hypoglycemia incidents. If you'd like to home test (I really really advise it), we can teach you how! This is your best shot at getting Gobi's blood glucose under control so he can start gaining weight and getting healthy again.
SGOT and SGPT are the equivalent of ALT and AST. They indicate that something is damaging your cat's liver. It could be cancer, inflammation, fatty liver disease... If he is not eating enough he might be at risk of feline hepatic lipidosis (fatty liver disease). It happens when the cat is not eating enough food. The body breaks down fat as energy, and that fat builds up in the liver and can kill fast.
A FEW MORE QUESTIONS!
How much are you feeding Gobi?How many cans of FF a day?
Do you know what his ideal weight would be? What does he weigh now?
How are his clinical diabetes symptoms? Is he drinking/peeing a lot? Missing the litter box? Do his hind legs seem weak or wobbly?
There are a few issues I can see right off the bat with the treatment plan the vet's given you!
1. We do not recommend Humulin N insulin. It is short acing (only about 6-8 hours duration) and it causes a harsh and fast drop. We really recommend Lantus, Levemir, and Prozinc insulins. These last much longer (the full 12h) and are much less harsh. You should talk to your vet about switching - we can arm you with a TON of vet documents that state why these 3 insulins are far better than Humulin N if they are stubborn!
2. 3u is a pretty big dose. Was he given that dose right off the bat, or did they slowly work up to that? Because of the short acting insulin and high dose, Gobi's blood glucose is probably on a wild roller coaster ride.
3. We don't recommend feeding ANY dry food to diabetics. HOWEVER. Because your cat is on a high dose of 3u, I do NOT recommend completely removing the dry. Carbohydrate consumption causes increased blood sugar - if you take that dry away, depending on how high carb it is (some dry foods are 40% carbs), his blood glucose could PLUMMET and if you shoot 3u into that, you might be looking at a potential hypoglycemia situation. Which leads me to...
4. We are strong advocates of home testing here. You know how diabetic humans poke their fingers and test their blood glucose? We do that to our kitties too, just with their ears instead. It's relatively easy and gives us more information on how they are handling the insulin, if a dose increase/decrease is needed, and it'll also help you avoid any potential hypoglycemia incidents. If you'd like to home test (I really really advise it), we can teach you how! This is your best shot at getting Gobi's blood glucose under control so he can start gaining weight and getting healthy again.
SGOT and SGPT are the equivalent of ALT and AST. They indicate that something is damaging your cat's liver. It could be cancer, inflammation, fatty liver disease... If he is not eating enough he might be at risk of feline hepatic lipidosis (fatty liver disease). It happens when the cat is not eating enough food. The body breaks down fat as energy, and that fat builds up in the liver and can kill fast.
A FEW MORE QUESTIONS!
How much are you feeding Gobi?How many cans of FF a day?
Do you know what his ideal weight would be? What does he weigh now?
How are his clinical diabetes symptoms? Is he drinking/peeing a lot? Missing the litter box? Do his hind legs seem weak or wobbly?
squeem3
Member Since 2009
Many diabetic cats are pretty skinny when they are diagnosed.It's a symptom from high blood gluocse levels and not enough insulin being produced by the body. Weight loss is one reason why some people take their cat to the vet in the first place and end up with a diagnosis of diabetes.
Vitamins or any other supplement will not make any difference in your cat's weight, IMO. When your cat's diabetes is more regulated with insulin and diet, he will slowly gain back the weight. Of course, you want to makes sure that your cat doesn't gain too much weight. Being overweight is not healthy, for aniamls or Humans.
I agree that Humulin N is not a good insulin choice. Your vet seems out of date with treating diabetes.
If Gobi eats FF, then just feed him that. Dry food of any kind keeps blood glucose levels too high. Think Twinkies and sugar coated jelly donuts for a Human diabetic. Do you free feed the FF? Many people here free feed the canned food so their cat can eat multiple small meals daily. There are various ways to keep the FF from going too bad if left out all day. Most people use a programmable timed feeder with or without frozen canned food in the compartments.
If your cat likes hard "crunchies" you can feed a few pieces of freeze dried meat treats or freeze dried raw pet food. Most cat's don't seem to miss dry food at all but there are some exceptions.
Vitamins or any other supplement will not make any difference in your cat's weight, IMO. When your cat's diabetes is more regulated with insulin and diet, he will slowly gain back the weight. Of course, you want to makes sure that your cat doesn't gain too much weight. Being overweight is not healthy, for aniamls or Humans.
I agree that Humulin N is not a good insulin choice. Your vet seems out of date with treating diabetes.
If Gobi eats FF, then just feed him that. Dry food of any kind keeps blood glucose levels too high. Think Twinkies and sugar coated jelly donuts for a Human diabetic. Do you free feed the FF? Many people here free feed the canned food so their cat can eat multiple small meals daily. There are various ways to keep the FF from going too bad if left out all day. Most people use a programmable timed feeder with or without frozen canned food in the compartments.
If your cat likes hard "crunchies" you can feed a few pieces of freeze dried meat treats or freeze dried raw pet food. Most cat's don't seem to miss dry food at all but there are some exceptions.
The vet first put Gobi on Lantus. Lantus did not agree with Gobi.The vet then changed to Humulin n.My personal experience with the vet is he really does not try very hard when the animal is old. To all of us our pets are precious. To me Gobi is extra precious because of how he came into my life. I lost my oldest son January 27, 1997. I found Gobi March 14, 1997, my son's birthday. I found Gobi very early that am in my yard. I had never seen a pregnant cat before and I never saw a cat looking for her newborn.
Now to answer your questions. I feed him FF 1/2 can in am 1 can in pm. I will now feed him 1 in am & 1in pm. I would like to switch him to Prozinc, I need to know how to do it.Do I just switch or do I wean him off the present insulin? I started the Humulin at 1 unit in am and 1in pm,do I do the same with Prozinc. I have tested Gobi at home. I need to know how to go about it, what time? how often? how long after the insulin?.Gobi used to weight 12 lbs. he is now 7 lbs. His weight kept coming down even after the treatment started, he had a lot of loose stools. The loose stools stopped only because I give him probiotics and enzymes in his food. As for the dry food, I have four other cats who do eat some of it, not much.Gobi eats very, very little dry. Gobi does not go outside the litterbox, his hind legs are fine,but after he eats and I give him the insulin a few minutes after he drinks water. I wish I could do the free feeding, I will have to look into it.I am also very worried about the liver values.I was reading about vit.e and cod liver oil to address the liver readings but I do not want to do too much at once.
Now to answer your questions. I feed him FF 1/2 can in am 1 can in pm. I will now feed him 1 in am & 1in pm. I would like to switch him to Prozinc, I need to know how to do it.Do I just switch or do I wean him off the present insulin? I started the Humulin at 1 unit in am and 1in pm,do I do the same with Prozinc. I have tested Gobi at home. I need to know how to go about it, what time? how often? how long after the insulin?.Gobi used to weight 12 lbs. he is now 7 lbs. His weight kept coming down even after the treatment started, he had a lot of loose stools. The loose stools stopped only because I give him probiotics and enzymes in his food. As for the dry food, I have four other cats who do eat some of it, not much.Gobi eats very, very little dry. Gobi does not go outside the litterbox, his hind legs are fine,but after he eats and I give him the insulin a few minutes after he drinks water. I wish I could do the free feeding, I will have to look into it.I am also very worried about the liver values.I was reading about vit.e and cod liver oil to address the liver readings but I do not want to do too much at once.
Julia & Bandit (GA)
Member Since 2009
Lantus is an excellent insulin for cats, when dosed properly, and MUCH better than Humulin N. What do you mean by it not "agreeing" with your cat? How long were you using it, and what was the dose? I sincerely doubt that your vet was dosing it properly if he switched you to Humulin N.
With Lantus, the starting dose should be around 1u, and dose adjustments are made in .25u-.5u increments based on the daily nadir (lowest number of the cycle), obtained via home testing. Shots need to be given twice a day, 12 hours apart. Also, a low carb canned diet needs to be fed. The large majority of cats (86%) go into remission if these steps are followed. If you were missing some part of this equation (which I can see already you were if you were feeding ANY dry food), then the Lantus would not have worked properly. Prozinc isn't a bad insulin, but Lantus and Levemir have been proven to have the highest remission rates in cats when used properly. I would recommend trying Lantus or Levemir again with the proper diet and dosing protocol first--there is a window on remission with those insulins which you lose the longer you wait to use them with the right treatment plan.
If you want his diabetes to get better, you're going to have to completely get rid of the dry food. Any dry food in his system, even what you think is just a tiny bit, can cause his blood sugar to consistently remain high. When a diabetic cat eats dry food, it is like a human diabetic eating potato chips and ice cream, which of course is very unhealthy for the diabetic. Ideally, you would want to feed all of your cats the same canned food to make life easier for you (keeping dry food in the house for the other cats usually ends up being more trouble than its worth trying to keep the diabetic from getting into it, and it's still very unhealthy for your other cats and can cause several other nutrition related diseases like Kidney Disease, Obesity, and Urinary Tract Disease).
If you're resistant to going canned only because of the cost, it actually works out to be cheaper to feed canned over dry when you figure the amount of food the cat is actually digesting vs. the amount the cat is eating--cats need to eat way less canned food than dry. Also, you save money in litter (poops are much smaller so you buy less litter), and medical expenses for your cats. At 15, you need to feed him a canned diet anyway, because if he has been eating dry food his whole life chances are he has kidney disease (which isn't detected in tests until 75% of function is gone). These cats need to be properly hydrated, and the only way to do that with a cat (who never makes up for the loss of moisture in their food at the water dish) is to feed a canned only diet.
If you need food suggestions, let us know! There are many very affordable options, especially if you get large 12-13 oz cans.
With Lantus, the starting dose should be around 1u, and dose adjustments are made in .25u-.5u increments based on the daily nadir (lowest number of the cycle), obtained via home testing. Shots need to be given twice a day, 12 hours apart. Also, a low carb canned diet needs to be fed. The large majority of cats (86%) go into remission if these steps are followed. If you were missing some part of this equation (which I can see already you were if you were feeding ANY dry food), then the Lantus would not have worked properly. Prozinc isn't a bad insulin, but Lantus and Levemir have been proven to have the highest remission rates in cats when used properly. I would recommend trying Lantus or Levemir again with the proper diet and dosing protocol first--there is a window on remission with those insulins which you lose the longer you wait to use them with the right treatment plan.
If you want his diabetes to get better, you're going to have to completely get rid of the dry food. Any dry food in his system, even what you think is just a tiny bit, can cause his blood sugar to consistently remain high. When a diabetic cat eats dry food, it is like a human diabetic eating potato chips and ice cream, which of course is very unhealthy for the diabetic. Ideally, you would want to feed all of your cats the same canned food to make life easier for you (keeping dry food in the house for the other cats usually ends up being more trouble than its worth trying to keep the diabetic from getting into it, and it's still very unhealthy for your other cats and can cause several other nutrition related diseases like Kidney Disease, Obesity, and Urinary Tract Disease).
If you're resistant to going canned only because of the cost, it actually works out to be cheaper to feed canned over dry when you figure the amount of food the cat is actually digesting vs. the amount the cat is eating--cats need to eat way less canned food than dry. Also, you save money in litter (poops are much smaller so you buy less litter), and medical expenses for your cats. At 15, you need to feed him a canned diet anyway, because if he has been eating dry food his whole life chances are he has kidney disease (which isn't detected in tests until 75% of function is gone). These cats need to be properly hydrated, and the only way to do that with a cat (who never makes up for the loss of moisture in their food at the water dish) is to feed a canned only diet.
If you need food suggestions, let us know! There are many very affordable options, especially if you get large 12-13 oz cans.
When we came home from the vet I had the Lantus script and m/d cans and dry. I started the insulin at 1u and fed Gobi the m/d only. The insulin was slowly raised to 3u. After 3 months of the m/d he hated and the Lantus he was still the same and lethargic. The vet switched him to Humulin N and said to continue with the m/d can and dry. Gobi stopped eating the m/d and I resumed the FF. I need help in understanding how to take his readings. I know how to take his blood from the ear flap, but I need to know the times of day and how long after the insulin is given. I need the schedule. Also if he is fed only cans, is he allowed to be free fed? I am very concerned with his weight. Getting off the dry will not be a problem for Gobi. He loves the canned food, I think he went to the dry food just to check it out, because he would take 2 or 3 pieces and walk away. He will do that with any dry food.
BJM
Member Since 2010
gobismom said:
Glucose test before every shot (AM and PM) and at the approximate nadir. The nadir varies with the insulin and the cat - about 4 hours post-Humulin, 5-6 hours post-ProZinc, or about 6 hours after Lantus. It is used to determine if the dose is correct. You want the insulin to take the glucose no lower than 50 (US measurements). Also, every week or so, it is helpful to do a curve - serial glucose measurements done pre-shot and every 2 hours until the next shot. This gives you an overall picture of how the glucose is working in your cat.
While you are on Humulin, it may help to pick up the food 8 hours after the shot, when the insulin is wearing off. A timed feeder such as the PetMate 5 may be helpful for this. Otherwise, the glucose will zoom up as the insulin wears off. The alternative to this is testing and shooting every 8 hours, which can be difficult to schedule.
We recommend you not inject with a glucose under 200 unless you have lots of data collected showing that this will be safe. As you get more and more data, you will be able to lower that number slowly and keep it safe.
Yes, he may be allowed to free feed, although with Humulin, leaving it down after 8 hours may skyrocket the glucose level as the insulin wears off. You might find that a suitable kitten food has a few more calories from protein and fat and will help his weight come back.
Julia & Bandit (GA)
Member Since 2009
gobismom said:
If you weren't home testing and basing the dose adjustments off those numbers, and if he was eating high carb food, then the Lantus was not being dosed properly and that's why you didn't have very good results (although without home testing, you really don't know if it was working well or not--3u is a pretty high dose for a cat and very likely too much insulin, and too much insulin keeps blood glucose levels just as high as too little insulin). You might want to give it another chance using the right dosing protocol, or perhaps Levemir, which works very similar Lantus. You definitely want to get a script as soon as you can for something other than the Humulin N--it is ineffective in cats and it's very unlikely you'll see any improvements while using that insulin. Prozinc would also be a better choice.
Unfortunately, even the canned M/D is not good for a diabetic cat--it's about 14% carbs (you want less than 10%), and contains corn starch, which will keep his blood glucose levels high. There are higher quality, cheaper alternatives you can feed your cats than the prescription diets (Hills charges an arm and a leg for those foods but uses the cheapest filler ingredients they can find, which is why many cats don't like it). Here's a link to the cat food nutrition chart: http://catinfo.org/docs/Food Chart Public 9-22-12.pdf. You can pick anything under 10% in the "carbs" column. The suggestion to feed a high calorie food to help him put some weight on is a good one--Wellness (the grain free flavors) foods are high in calories, as are EVO, and you can get both in big cans which makes it far less expensive than what you're paying for the Hills, and they are much better quality foods and low in carbs. If you have an independently owned pet supply or feed store in your town, they are going to be much cheaper there than at Petsmart or Petco.
If he likes Fancy Feast and you are ok with continuing to feed that, here's a link to the diabetic safe flavors: http://www.felinediabetes.com/glutenfree.htm. Considering his age, I would personally go with one of the Wellness or EVO (if he'll eat them--first priority is finding a food that he likes and will actively eat) because of the higher quality ingredients and higher calorie levels. Plus, it's cheaper to feed those foods than Fancy Feast if you buy it in the 5.5oz or 12-13oz cans, if you want to feed it to all your cats. I would get a couple small cans first to see what he likes best, though. And yes, you can absolutely free feed canned food. Just add some extra water to keep it from drying out. You can leave it out for up to 6 hours if you add some water, or 12 hours if you freeze it and leave it out.
Here's a link that tells you how to create a spreadsheet, which will help you chart the numbers you're taking at home: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207. If you need help understanding it, don't hesitate to ask! Once you set this up, there are many experienced people here that can give you advice on how to adjust the insulin dose. With any insulin, you want to aim to test at least 3 times a day (before each shot and a mid-cycle check to see how the insulin is working).
I don't have any personal experience using Humulin N, so I don't feel comfortable giving you dosing advice with that insulin. Again, my suggestion would be to change insulins as soon as possible to either Lantus, Levemir, or Prozinc, as these are the recommended insulins for cats. If your vet won't write you a script for a different insulin, I would find another vet who will. Most vets are cooperative if you ask and are firm about it, though.
hmjohnston
Member Since 2011
If you still have your Lantus I would suggest going back to that after you get the testing down. THis is a life saver for both the cat, your sanity, and your finances.
Julia is right- your vet was not dosing it right and you won't have good results with the wrong kind of food and certainly not with the wrong dose :shock: . But it is a much better insulin to use than Humulin N. If you don't have it any more and want to try something difference PZI is another good short acting insulin (meaning it acts right away on the system) while Levimir is another long acting insulin (meaning it kicks in a few hours down the road).
I've used both and, since my cat is a large dose cat (because of acromelegy- large doses are usually caused by something unless you are Missy) I switched to Lev because it is gentler than Lantus. Bear in mind, ProZinc does have a shortage right now but it costs less than Levemir or Lantus and comes in a large vial. The L's come in vials and pens and it is more economical to do the pens if given the choice.
Julia is right- your vet was not dosing it right and you won't have good results with the wrong kind of food and certainly not with the wrong dose :shock: . But it is a much better insulin to use than Humulin N. If you don't have it any more and want to try something difference PZI is another good short acting insulin (meaning it acts right away on the system) while Levimir is another long acting insulin (meaning it kicks in a few hours down the road).
I've used both and, since my cat is a large dose cat (because of acromelegy- large doses are usually caused by something unless you are Missy) I switched to Lev because it is gentler than Lantus. Bear in mind, ProZinc does have a shortage right now but it costs less than Levemir or Lantus and comes in a large vial. The L's come in vials and pens and it is more economical to do the pens if given the choice.
hmjohnston
Member Since 2011
And Gobi isn't old- my Sneakers is 17 and counting and we have some 20 year olds on the board here :lol: .
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