Urea Nitrogen plus Creatinine equals BUN/CREAT?

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Sophia

Member Since 2009
I am really confused Sophia's Urea Nitrogen is 71 and her Creatinine is 3.2 however her BUN/Creat rat is 22.

The vet said ignore the ratio. We have to give her water now for the rest of her life howev er long that may be. It is quite a chore because she fights us. Her Thyroid is now OK with the gel we are putting on her ear.

My neighbor said I should put her to sleep because of the vet bills.... but she is still perky and jumps on the sofa armrest and 'talks' with me about the Olympis/// I call her my special ol. commentator...

I wonder if anyb ody knows aout the above numbers. Thanks
 
BUN is an indicator of kidney disease, so is Creatinine, but Creatinine is usually the number most focused on to know how far advanced it is. BUN (urea nitrogen) can be elevated by high protein diets.

The ratio just tells you one or both are out of wack, which you can see by the actual BUN Creatinine results.

The reference ranges of creatinine can vary, the major labs usually 2.4 is around the top of the ref range. 3.2 is high but not sky high. I might hold off on fluids at 3.2 but if she is dehydrated the vet might have thought it was needed. My vet said that if you start fluids too early or too much of them, you can overtax the kidneys more and had me wait until Merlyn was consistently around 3.4 creatinine. Merlyn was not dehydrated at that point but some cats do need fluids earlier. Treat the cat not the numbers, just like diabetes! ECID

Here is relevant pages from Tanyas site.
http://www.felinecrf.org/how_bad_is_it.htm
http://www.felinecrf.org/subcutaneous_fluids.htm

Sending cyber hugs to you and Sophia!
 
Thank you. Now I understand it a little better. How many times should I test? I wished we could test like diabetes but I have to take her to the vet for it.I want to do the best for her . Her sugar was 185 but he does not feel she needs insulin. She has not had any for years.
 
Seriously, it is so hard not knowing how a renal-compromised cat is doing at any moment, unlike with diabetes where you can just poke an ear and know immediately. One of my civvies crashed in December and her renal values were horrible, so she spent quite a while in the hospital on IV fluids. She goes for bloodwork every 4-6 weeks, and I think typically renal kitties don't need to go that often, but she gave me a big scare and I'm trying to be proactive. She initially got fluids once a day (60 mL), and now she gets it twice a day.

MJ
 
Sophia should get 10 ml eve ry othr day or 5 every day. dh was at the vet's office to get more fluids and needles and this is what they told him. It seems 60 is so much.. how do you get that into your kitty. Mine does not want to sit still at all.
 
It was pretty scary at first, but luckily my experience with diabetes made giving injections easier. So much of being successful is mental confidence. It took some practice, and thankfully she is a good patient, which is not to say she doesn't get annoyed with me sometimes. But I swear, just like my sugarcat, she "knows" what time it is and tends to come looking for me. 60 mL makes a nice-sized lump on her.

I use
syr_60_ml.jpeg
and
scalp__250x250.jpg


instead of dripping directly from the bag.
 
Sophia said:
Sophia should get 10 ml eve ry othr day or 5 every day. dh was at the vet's office to get more fluids and needles and this is what they told him. It seems 60 is so much.. how do you get that into your kitty. Mine does not want to sit still at all.

Is that correct or should it be 100 ml EOD (50 ml ED)?
10 ml EOD (5 ml ED) will not really do anything . I give my 8.5 lb Stuart 100 ml EOD.
 
Please don't listen to anyone who tells you to put your cat to sleep over a CRF diagnosis with a creatinine of only 3.2. That's ridiculous. By the way, treating diabetes is far more difficult and time consuming that treating CRF. I wish Max had only CRF! That would be a breeze.

Have you been to Tanya's CRF site: http://www.felinecrf.org/index.htm ?

What I have learned since my cat was diagnosed with CRF is that cats who are properly cared for can live a long time, and be very happy and comfortable. Treating CRF is far less expensive than treating diabetes once you get the cat stabilized. (My cat has diabetes, too, which makes the hydration issue all that more difficult.)

Giving subcutaneous fluids can be a detriment at times, as Lisa said. Just like with diabetes, a vet will say, "Give x amount y times a day or z times a week," and send you home. You don't find out until later that the vet was treating the numbers only, not the whole cat, or that the vet has a generic treatment plan for all cats with CRF. Part of it is, of course, that vets don't know if you are the type to take a proactive approach or the type to just wing it. They just have to hope you'll bring the cat back for more tests and they can catch any complications caused by what you have been doing to the cat. I suggest you read Tanya's site, and learn about all the issues so you can be active in the cat's treatment.

BUN can also be elevated by mere dehydration. What happens in CRF is that the kidneys cannot concentrate the urine as well. Instead of peeing only the waste product and a little water, the cat is peeing a lot of water, too, just like with diabetes. You may notice that the pee doesn't smell nearly as bad as it did before, and that there is a lot of it. If the kidneys were working well, a lot of that water would be retained for the cat's body to use again. Cats evolved this way because they were desert animals. The severity of your cat's CRF cannot be assessed until you get the cat hydrated and stabilized. Then, the BUN and creatinine numbers may go down. My cat's numbers did.

Take this to heart: your cat's numbers are not that bad, number one. Number two, do not be alarmed that the creatinine number you see means that your cat may have lost 60% or 66% of it's kidney function. Apparently, a cat who is otherwise healthy does just fine with only 33% of kidney function. It is very common for the creatinine test to find CRF only after 60% of function is lost, but your cat can get some of the function back if you keep him/her hydrated, feed wet food only, and watch out for any illnesses or recurrence of diabetes, and are careful to give fluids only when necessary -- not on a set schedule that does not take into account the cat's actual hydration.

So how do you know if the cat is in need of fluids? That's the million dollar question. I'm trying to keep my cat hydrated without over-hydrating him which will tax his kidneys or risk high blood pressure if he has an undiagnosed case of that. I can't pay for a BUN test to be done every week.

Tanya's site shows you how to check hydration by pulling up on the cat's scruff, and I'm sure there are a number of youtube videos that will show you how, too. I am hoping that I will learn over time how much fluid Max needs on a weekly basis by logging hydration checks and all the times I give fluids. Even with diabetes, 100 ml twice a week turned out to be far too much. It's probably because I'm feeding wet food only, and the vet didn't take that into consideration.

As for the cat fighting you, there a lot of videos on youtube and a lot of information about how to do it right on Tanya's site. You can learn to do it in a way that is less painful and difficult for your cat and you, and you will. Don't worry yet.

Good luck!
 
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