Update on Cubby... finally got the spreadsheet going.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Allyson & Cubby

Allyson & Cubby

Member Since 2017
Good morning everyone,

I've finally updated Cubby's spreadsheet as much as possible. Unfortunately, he hasn't taken to the testing as smoothly as I had hoped. To be honest... in the last week he seems to have declined significantly. He just doesn't seem happy anymore. :( He used to lay on my chest every single day and purr like a motorboat. Now he is either sleeping or begging for food. Yes- I know I need to get him off of the dry but I also know his tummy wouldn't be able to swap faster than two weeks. I was planning to bump him up to 1/2 can mixed with 1/16 cup dry this week and then cut out dry next week.... Now I'm starting to think he is too far gone. He is eating and drinking but he's obviously uncomfortable. The neuropathy in his legs has gotten **seriously** worse. I didn't think that was reversible and he can hardly get up the stairs anymore. He's grumpy and even growled at my boyfriend this morning when we tried to test. He has only ever growled at Vets and techs... well... one other time when he had stones. I'm starting to feel like I'm dragging out the inevitable. I honestly can't afford to keep up with this and don't really want to if it's not going to make him comfortable. I feel like I am making it worse. Am I being selfish? Did I wait too long to take him in and get treatment? He used to be 23lbs and he was 11lbs at the last vet visit. I can tell he is still loosing weight. Please don't tear into me... Everyone around me thinks I should have let him go weeks ago. Idk if they're right and I've been wrong for trying... ugh now I'm rambling. Thanks for reading.
 
I'm sorry you're feeling disheartened. It hasn't yet been a month since his diagnosis so it's far too early to judge what's ahead. You probably know already what my comments will be but here they are anyway: ;)
  1. you need to work on BG testing using desensitization, freeze dried meat treats (or other low carb morsels), praise, scritches, ear handling, etc. - whatever it takes because testing is essential
  2. continue the food transition as quickly as you can without creating digestive problems. There are a couple of low carb kibbles available online you could try (they'll send samples) - Dr. Elsey's Clean Protein or Young Again Zero
  3. try your very best to get a BG test before every insulin shot as well as at least one other either mid day or before bed
  4. keep your SS updated and post on the ProZinc forum for dosing help or on this forum for hints on making testing go more smoothly, food transitioning, etc.
Please don't give up on Cubby before you've really gotten started. We can help if you're willing to take on a more active role. To save money you could try a more economical insulin. Vetsulin is cheaper but even Lantus, if purchased from a Canadian pharmacy many US people here use, ends up being cheaper than ProZinc. Are you using a human meter with cheap test strips?

Yes, treating FD is hard and there's a lot to learn. We all understand your feelings of defeat but there truly is light at the end of this tunnel.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
I'm sorry you're feeling disheartened. It hasn't yet been a month since his diagnosis so it's far too early to judge what's ahead. You probably know already what my comments will be but here they are anyway: ;)
  1. you need to work on BG testing using desensitization, freeze dried meat treats (or other low carb morsels), praise, scritches, ear handling, etc. - whatever it takes because testing is essential
  2. continue the food transition as quickly as you can without creating digestive problems. There are a couple of low carb kibbles available online you could try (they'll send samples) - Dr. Elsey's Clean Protein or Young Again Zero
  3. try your very best to get a BG test before every insulin shot as well as at least one other either mid day or before bed
  4. keep your SS updated and post on the ProZinc forum for dosing help or on this forum for hints on making testing go more smoothly, food transitioning, etc.
Please don't give up on Cubby before you've really gotten started. We can help if you're willing to take on a more active role. To save money you could try a more economical insulin. Vetsulin is cheaper but even Lantus, if purchased from a Canadian pharmacy many US people here use, ends up being cheaper than ProZinc. Are you using a human meter with cheap test strips?

Yes, treating FD is hard and there's a lot to learn. We all understand your feelings of defeat but there truly is light at the end of this tunnel.
Click to expand...
I don't really know how much more active I can get? Maybe you can clarify please? I do give him treats at testing and rearranged my work schedule so I could be here to feed him 4 times a day...

Also... the whole point to transitioning him from the dry is because his gut can't handle a sudden change from a different manufacturer. Getting a different dry would just make him sick.

I understand it "hasn't even been a month yet" but he is clearly getting worse and deteriorating.
 
Great job on getting the spreadsheet up!

I'm sorry Cubby isn't feeling well. How is his appetite and water-drinking? Any litter box changes? Does he get more grumpy (possible sign of pain) if you touch his abdomen?

Being in the kind of numbers Cubby is can make them feel really yucky and out-of-sorts, all on its own, but there are a couple of other conditions that diabetic cats are prone to that might cause him to feel worse than usual. Pancreatitis can make them feel just awful, but the symptoms of a flare can be managed. Ketones and DKA are very serious, but if you catch it early (test urine for ketones regularly!) can be treated very successfully.

As Kris says, it's still very early days on treating the FD, so please don't lose heart. FD by itself is very manageable, he's pretty young, and cats in general are very resilient creatures, so I'm betting on him to be able to turn this around. But it can take a while to get to the right dose to bring his numbers into a good range that will help him feel better-- heck, we've even found that, for cats that have been diabetic for a while, even getting to the good numbers doesn't always have them feeling better immediately! It's like their bodies have gotten so used to being in high BG, getting to normal feels weird. It's even possible that that's part of why Cubby is feeling yucky now-- you don't know yet how low the ProZinc is taking him after the shot, it's possible that it's taking him low already, and the zig-zag of BG is throwing him for a loop. Again, it's early days yet-- as you get more tests in at different times of day, his patterns will reveal themselves and we can help figure out how to proceed.

It's so hard to see them feeling bad, but you are doing the best things you can do to help him feel better!
 
Allyson said:
I don't really know how much more active I can get? Maybe you can clarify please? I do give him treats at testing and rearranged my work schedule so I could be here to feed him 4 times a day...

Also... the whole point to transitioning him from the dry is because his gut can't handle a sudden change from a different manufacturer. Getting a different dry would just make him sick.

I understand it "hasn't even been a month yet" but he is clearly getting worse and deteriorating.
Click to expand...
Oh don’t give up yet. It will get worst before it gets better. My cat began to hide the whole day in the bathroom after diagnosis. Then we saw his hind legs got weaker and he couldn’t jump like he used to. He lost weight and was constantly hungry. Gradually as we got his BG under control he felt much better. He’s lucky as he’s in remission now and he’s totally back to his old self.
I know it does take time to test him and monitor his progress but you have the support and help from this Board.
 
Allyson said:
I don't really know how much more active I can get? Maybe you can clarify please?
Click to expand...
I apologize if the tone of this comment seemed harsh. It wasn't my intention. I'm referring to working on the testing issue so you can get a BG test before every shot both AM and PM; trying to get a before bed test everyday if you're at work and then trying for a couple of mid day tests on days off; posting here for help with dosing. There's insufficient data on your SS to see what's going on but my guess is that his dose needs to go up to 1.25 u. We recommend increases of only 0.25 u at a time to avoid zooming past a good dose. If data shows little to no positive effect on BG, then the dose is raised before too many days go by. Spending time in high numbers makes them feel ill and makes it harder to get the BG down because of glucose toxicity (worse than it sounds). The way forward is through small dose increases every few days until numbers improve and then the rate of increase is slowed.

Re feeding: an automatic feeder might take some pressure off you during your work days. And, yes, it's harder to feed kitties with sensitive tummies. You could post for advice about this on this forum.

Re deteriorating: unregulated kitties feel awful. It's truly amazing how much better they can be once their numbers are better controlled. Don't lose heart! :bighug:
 
You can give him extra food during the day by freezing food so he can snack as the food thaws.

I had a lot of problems with getting my Callie's BG to come down. She looked terrible. She was skinny and her fur was just as full. My vet kept raising her Vetsulin Modesto a high of 5u. She restricted her food. Once I found DCMB and started following the suggestions of the helpful people here, everything turned around. I asked my vet to change from Vetsulin to Prozinc. I started to use the spreadsheet. My vet loved the spreadsheet and has all her diabetic cat parents using it.

Now it's a year and a half later. Callie's fur is thick and glossy. She jumps up on the card table to be tested, fed and have her shot. Her insulin dose is down to a tiny 0.4u.

Give your baby some more time, once you get her dose figured out, she will feel and look so much better.
 
With lower numbers and b12 methylcobalamin the neuropathy can reverse. One brand many use for b12 methylcobalamin is zobaline.

Zobaline™ (for Diabetic Cats) 3 mg x 60 tabs https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008G3LI2M/?tag=felinediabetesfdmb-20

I agree with Kris to try 1.25 u but when possible get a mid cycle reading. The first few weeks getting a sample is hard! You're doing a great job! And we'll done getting the spreadsheet set up.
 
Don't give up. Janet is 100% correct - regulated BG and then B12 supplements are the key to recovery.

Last year Leo could barely walk, his neuropathy was so bad. We were thinking the same thing as you...bad thoughts. To heal, it took time and dedication. I regulated his blood glucose and then B12 everyday. Just a few months later, a near 100% recovery. We never thought it would be possible. Now he jumps up onto the couch like it nothing. But I know it is a miracle.

Do Not Give Up. You can bring your sweet kitteh back to health. It will take time but you can do it. Just look at Little Dude and Leo on the couch. This is one year after bad neuropathy - Leo got up on the couch just fine. Totally worth the effort! Our sweet fur-kids.
 

Attachments

  • Little Dude and Leo - Dec 7, 2017b.jpg
    Little Dude and Leo - Dec 7, 2017b.jpg
    65.8 KB · Views: 111
Allyson said:
I understand it "hasn't even been a month yet" but he is clearly getting worse and deteriorating.
Click to expand...
For info, not all insulins agree with all cats. If the situation doesn't improve soon I'd suggest asking your vet to try a different insulin (e.g. Lantus or Levemir).

My Saoirse did not do well at all on her first insulin (Caninsulin). While it was active in her system it would lower her BG but she became really lethargic and would hide behind a curtain for 9-10 hours out of each cycle. She'd brighten up and behave 'more normally' as each dose wore off. She also started trying to hide in the most out of reach place she could find when it came to injection time. As I said to my vet at the time it was like having two different cats. (This was after a couple of months' treatment.) Like you, I looked at the really negative impact that the Caninsulin treatment had had on her quality of life and, if there had been no other treatment options, I would have considered letting her go. However ...

... I kept a log of Saoirse's clinical signs and behaviours alongside her BG readings and used that to support my request to our vet to change her to Lantus insulin. The difference between Saoirse on Caninsulin and Saoirse on Lantus was like night and day; I got my cat back!!! :) It took a couple of days for Saoirse's body to get used to the Lantus but thereafter she'd be a bit sleepy for an hour or so after each injection and then she became brighter in mood, alert and sociable, and happy. No more lurking behind the curtain; no more trying to escape the injections. Here's a link to Saoirse's 2014 spreadsheet for you to have a look at when you have time:

Saoirse's 2014 Alphatrak Spreadsheet

The steep, rapid drops in BG typical of Caninsulin were making her feel awful. Lantus has a gentler mode of action and it agreed with Saoirse so much better and she was a much happier, healthier kitty for it. :)

If you can manage to get at least some mid-cycle tests in it will give both you and your vet a better picture of how the Prozinc is affecting Cubby.

I agree with you about taking the diet change slowly; cats have sensitive GI systems, some extremely so (wanna see my T-shirt collection?). I second Nan's suggestion to ask your vet about testing for pancreatitis (and perhaps a course of B12 injections as they can help when nutrient malabsorption is a concern). And definitely test regularly for ketones as a precaution. Discuss the amount you need to feed with your vet, especially if Cubby is underweight (see body condition chart). If he's still losing weight and still very hungry then his body is not yet getting the full benefit from the food he's eating. (This, too, will improve as Cubby becomes better regulated - BG testing is your best tool to help you achieve this.) As a general rule, FDMB suggests feeding more to underweight cats, especially if they're not well regulated. Home testing will let you know what impact extra food has on BG levels and you'll be able to work with your vet to refine dosing to suit.

Please don't give up hope yet. Think marathon, not sprint. ;) :bighug: By way of encouragement, have a look at the story of Tootsie's Neuropathy:



Mogs
.
 
Last edited:
PS ...

Sometimes at time of diagnosis sugar cats may look a lot worse for wear; poor hair coat condition and weight loss are common clinical signs of unregulated FD. By way of more encouragement I'm posting a link to the profile posted by member @Chris & China: check out the before and after photos of China and see for yourself just how huge an improvement insulin treatment can make:

China's FDMB Profile

FYI, a few months after start of treatment Saoirse started shedding like there was no tomorrow. It seemed that even if you just looked sideways at her handfuls of fur would drop out. Her fur had become very dry and had rusted quite badly in the period prior to Dx but the fur that grew back (very quickly once I got her on a suitable insulin) was luxuriously soft, lustrous, and jet black.

The early stages of the sugar dance can be really tough going - for both cat and caregiver - but there are also many joys to be found along the road back to wellness. Keep the faith.

:bighug:


Mogs
.
 
Last edited:
Thank you everyone! I've been trying a lot harder... it's been a battle just the last couple days alone. This morning it took 10 strips before we actually got a reading but we got the reading. I've cut out the dry completely starting this evening... hopefully we will get him regulated soon. I can't stand to watch him like this. He looks so uncomfortable. I appreciate all of your kind words and support. Thank you all again.
 
Allyson said:
Thank you everyone! I've been trying a lot harder... it's been a battle just the last couple days alone. This morning it took 10 strips before we actually got a reading but we got the reading. I've cut out the dry completely starting this evening... hopefully we will get him regulated soon. I can't stand to watch him like this. He looks so uncomfortable. I appreciate all of your kind words and support. Thank you all again.
Click to expand...
Keep soldiering on and give treats liberally. You'll become much more proficient and he might become more cooperative, especially if he feels better. Many of them seem to learn that the pokes relate to them feeling better.
 
Kris & Teasel said:
I apologize if the tone of this comment seemed harsh. It wasn't my intention. I'm referring to working on the testing issue so you can get a BG test before every shot both AM and PM; trying to get a before bed test everyday if you're at work and then trying for a couple of mid day tests on days off; posting here for help with dosing. There's insufficient data on your SS to see what's going on but my guess is that his dose needs to go up to 1.25 u. We recommend increases of only 0.25 u at a time to avoid zooming past a good dose. If data shows little to no positive effect on BG, then the dose is raised before too many days go by. Spending time in high numbers makes them feel ill and makes it harder to get the BG down because of glucose toxicity (worse than it sounds). The way forward is through small dose increases every few days until numbers improve and then the rate of increase is slowed.

Re feeding: an automatic feeder might take some pressure off you during your work days. And, yes, it's harder to feed kitties with sensitive tummies. You could post for advice about this on this forum.

Re deteriorating: unregulated kitties feel awful. It's truly amazing how much better they can be once their numbers are better controlled. Don't lose heart!
Kris & Teasel said:
I apologize if the tone of this comment seemed harsh. It wasn't my intention. I'm referring to working on the testing issue so you can get a BG test before every shot both AM and PM; trying to get a before bed test everyday if you're at work and then trying for a couple of mid day tests on days off; posting here for help with dosing. There's insufficient data on your SS to see what's going on but my guess is that his dose needs to go up to 1.25 u. We recommend increases of only 0.25 u at a time to avoid zooming past a good dose. If data shows little to no positive effect on BG, then the dose is raised before too many days go by. Spending time in high numbers makes them feel ill and makes it harder to get the BG down because of glucose toxicity (worse than it sounds). The way forward is through small dose increases every few days until numbers improve and then the rate of increase is slowed.

Re feeding: an automatic feeder might take some pressure off you during your work days. And, yes, it's harder to feed kitties with sensitive tummies. You could post for advice about this on this forum.

Re deteriorating: unregulated kitties feel awful. It's truly amazing how much better they can be once their numbers are better controlled. Don't lose heart! :bighug:
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

@Kris & Teasel
I apologise for getting defensive. I've been feeling all of the emotions about this. Thank you for being so kind.
 
Critter Mom said:
How is Cubby's tum after the food transition?


Mogs
.
Click to expand...
Surprisingly... he's doing really well. I ran out of FF and had to supplement with a can of chicken that I had in the pantry. I spread it out over a plate and he ate much much slower. He hasn't even gotten sick since I changed to the plate! (Knock on wood) I checked his litter box and everything seems to be the same there as well. I was giving him the tiniest bit of dry but tonight's dinner was just some Friskee pate and he's doing well so far. It's been about 2 hrs since he ate it!
 
Insulin will not change the cat output (poops), but diet changes will affect it. Keep up the good fight. Really, it just takes some initiative and learning in the first couple of weeks. Then it just becomes routine.

So routine that...I have a towel on the floor in the kitchen. Leo just comes over and lays on it, then he gets tested, then he gets food and an insulin dose. Tonight, cooked chicken tenders - an all time favorite. I like them too!
 
It takes some time. That 181 reading is encouraging. Once you dial in the dose in the next 10 days, then it will be easier.

Leo was on Prozinc for one bottle. His body liked it, but it was expensive and not as readily available as Lantus or Levemir. I guess at 1-2 units a dose, the vial should actually last you awhile.
 
I see Cubby broke out the oul' budgie smugglers and went paddling in the Blue Lagoon today! :cat: Tonight's nassty black PMPS might possibly be a counter-regulatory response to that lovely earlier number.


Mogs
.
 
Allyson said:
Thank you everyone! I've been trying a lot harder... it's been a battle just the last couple days alone. This morning it took 10 strips before we actually got a reading but we got the reading. I've cut out the dry completely starting this evening... hopefully we will get him regulated soon. I can't stand to watch him like this. He looks so uncomfortable. I appreciate all of your kind words and support. Thank you all again.
Click to expand...

I hear you on the test front. It's the battle of the ear every single time no matter what I do . Hence the new avatar displaying one of those precious earholes.
I've only been at this a short while and at the moment I don't really get it still. What I do know is getting Tyler off the renal dry was a good thing. I can see that in himself.

You'll get there in the end . Fingers crossed for you on the new diet front.
 
Critter Mom said:
F By way of encouragement, have a look at the story of Tootsie's Neuropathy:


Mogs
.
Click to expand...

No wish to highjack Allyson's thread but that made me grizzle a bit as that's my Tyler's neuropathy right now. He also has CKD stage II so I am giving 2000mcg methyB12 as concerned for his kidneys. It's not zobaline as that's not easily available to here in New Zealand. I see I need folic acid to help.
Vet keeps saying it's arthritis which I know it isn't from here.
 
Critter Mom said:
I see Cubby broke out the oul' budgie smugglers and went paddling in the Blue Lagoon today! :cat: Tonight's nassty black PMPS might possibly be a counter-regulatory response to that lovely earlier number.


Mogs
.
Click to expand...
Well... Unfortunately we didn't get the late night readings. I fell asleep trying to stay awake. I'm going to set alarms for tonight.

His stomach has become pretty sick as well... I know it's because of all the change in food. He's not a happy kitty right now.
 
Allyson said:
Well... Unfortunately we didn't get the late night readings. I fell asleep trying to stay awake. I'm going to set alarms for tonight.

His stomach has become pretty sick as well... I know it's because of all the change in food. He's not a happy kitty right now.
Click to expand...
You're in a bit of a rough patch. Do what you can do. Maybe if you describe specifically what the issues are that led to the 10 ruined tests we can make suggestions to help. It can be tricky at first - fractious cat, anxious human, organizing placement of testing things in the testing area, learning how the meter behaves, best size of blood drop, getting the ear to bleed well, etc.

Take a deep breath and put the difficulties in the back of your mind. :bighug:
 
Sorry to hear that the tum troubles continue. :( (((Cubby)))

I really feel for you, too: I know from experience how very, very distressing it is when kitties have GI problems. (((Allyson))) I hope Cubby's tummy settles down really quickly.


Mogs
.
 
I'm not sure why the 10 strips failed... the meter (Relion) just kept giving error codes :-( He's never been a biter. This is all new and weird... just breathing in and out lol
 
Critter Mom said:
Sorry to hear that the tum troubles continue. :( (((Cubby)))

I really feel for you, too: I know from experience how very, very distressing it is when kitties have GI problems. (((Allyson))) I hope Cubby's tummy settles down really quickly.


Mogs
.
Click to expand...
Mogs,

I'm pretty convinced it's because I said something out loud lol. Hopefully it subsides quickly.... is a can of chicken an okay option instead of FF or Friskee?
 
Allyson said:
it's because I said something out loud lol
Click to expand...
Repeat after me:

"Anti-jinx, anti-jinx, anti-jinx, anti-jinx ..."

;)

I found that blander foods were the most helpful for upset tums but the most appropriate food to give very much depends on what will work for the individual cat. Whatever you decide to try foodwise, go very slowly; sometimes switching can make matters worse (as I sense you're all too aware :( ). Just try to make sure Cubby keeps eating something. Perhaps get a vet checkup before Christmas to be on the safe side? They might be able to recommend something to soothe discomfort. Also try digging around at the IBD Kitties website; it can be a very helpful resource.


Mogs
.
 
Allyson said:
@Critter Mom

I think he did best with the can of chicken. Honestly it's about the same price as the fancy feast etc... is there anything wrong with giving him that?
Click to expand...
There are people here who make their own cat food from chicken, etc. but they have to add a supplement of vitamins and minerals that's already in commercial cat food. Taurine is especially important. Check the chicken's ingredients on the can and make sure there's nothing sugar-like added. Here's a link to an online source of EZ Complete for cats:
http://www.foodfurlife.com/
 
You need to check whether it's a complete food and also check the carb content. For my own cats when they've experienced GI difficulties I've always put the greatest emphasis on getting enough food into them. Sometimes one is restricted by what food a cat can actually manage to tolerate, even if it's not the optimum for FD.

If the chicken is a supplementary food it won't provide all the nutrients Cubby needs. Supplementary foods are OK for short term use in a GI emergency but you'll still need to work on 'permanent' dietary choices for him. Again I suggest you consult your vet for further input.

I've found food issues to be much more difficult to sort than insulin/testing matters. I've often enviously read posts here by other members whose cats can eat a wide variety of foods without a problem. :(


Mogs
.
 
Our cats get cooked chicken tenders every couple of weeks. It's probably similar from a can. But longterm he will need variation. Cat foods include cat-specific additives for health.
 
You're doing good Allyson. This is a long term challenge to get Cubby healthy again. If possible, try to take readings after AMPS or PMPS daily. A PMPS+4 would be good if are still awake.

That way we can measure the effectiveness over time. And help you with dosing adjustments. I hope Cubby is eating more, and can regain some of that lost weight soon.
 
I'll go out on a limb and predict PMPS is 450+ for today (Dec 20). That is what happens with skipped doses.

Dose the regular amount (1.25) if you dose in the PM. I wish Leo only needed small doses like that.
 
@JeffJ it actually wasn't... kind of thought it was going to. I'm going to do more reading on the ProZinc board. His number dropped a lot this evening. I got nervous and didn't give the shot again.
 
Last night was fine. And this night you did the proper thing - no dose.
143 is a normal range.

The last couple of days looks pretty good for the overall average. The Prozinc board is a good place. I only have a couple months of direct experience with it. But it is not drastically different from Lantus or Levemir. All three insulins have different slow release mechanisms. They are each ingeniously developed. Much gentler than Vetsulin.
 
Thank you, I posted in ProZinc to get some dosage advise. Based off of what I've been reading... I'm guessing we have to go back to 1u? Not too sure since I apparently have a cat burglar who can break into the auto feeder :cat:
 
Yes, 1.0 might be a good dose to go back to . If Cubby's numbers don't stabilize you may end up on a sliding scale - with the dosage dependent on the BG value.

LOL about the cat burglar!

I'm out tomorrow (friday) on a 1 day family early xmas visit.
 
Wow, another blue number
150

You are doing good, and Cubby is probably appreciating the feeling of semi-regulated blood glucose.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top