UPDATE 2.8.17 newbie, just adopted 16 y/o diabetic cat and I am scared

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Thtathy

Thtathy

Member Since 2017
Hi - Adopted 16 y/o last Tues, she was getting 2 units human insulin 2x a day and eating Science DIet Adult cat food, took her to vet last Tues, bs was high at 400, vet said to go to 5 units a day. I switched her to raw and limited ingredient/low car kibble with water. She is constantly hungry. She eats/gets injections 7:30AM - 4:30PM.

I bought a glucometer...reading was 300 this afternoon and then 365 2 hours after dinner. I don't know if the bottle of insulin (30% left) is inactive or if I am not injecting her correctly. I spent $500 on her so far...I don't know what to do.
 
Hi--

OK, first off: how wonderful that you opened your home and heart to a diabetic kitty! :bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:

We have tons (and tons!) of information and support to share here, but your post raises a couple of extremely pressing issues right off the bat:

1) do you mean that the dose is now 2.5U twice a day?

2) did you switch the food over completely, and

3) what is the name of the low carb kibble you are feeding?

The reason this is so important is because in cats, blood glucose is very responsive to food, so changing food can change insulin requirements drastically. It's absolutely critical that you be testing (as you are already-- well done!) during and after the transition so that you can keep your kitty safe.

As for the effectiveness of the insulin-- too soon to tell, but if there's only 30% left I'm assuming you got it from the vet or a foster caretaker? With that much gone, it's certainly possible for effectiveness to be reduced-- cats don't use a lot of insulin, so the bottle may have been open for a long time, and you don't know if it was treated properly during that time.

When you get more settled, one of the things we have a lot of suggestions about is on how to save money on diabetic supplies (including some insulins) and care-- nothing will eliminate all the costs, but we can give you tips that will take out some of the sting.

Welcome again! And, one last question: what is the name of your kitty?
 
Sorry: after posting I read your post and have another question and a comment.

4) what is the name of the insulin your are using? If it's lantus, the 7:30-4:30 dosing schedule isn't ideal-- it really should be 12hrs apart, for reasons we can explain if you are indeed using lantus.

The comment: the constant hunger is normal for a diabetic that isn't regulated yet. It's OK for her to eat-- she may need more food for a while because her body isn't using the food she's getting properly.
 
Hi, welcome to FDMB! You have come to the right place for answers and assistance. :)

First of all, could you please answer a few questions? The more information we have, the better we can help you.

1. What type of human insulin are you using?
2. What type of meter are you using to test her blood glucose?
3. How often do you test, and are you testing before each shot?
4. Does your kitty have any other health issues?

And last but not least, what is your name, and the name of your kitty? It just makes communication a little easier. :)

Jumping up from 2 units of any insulin to 5 units is a HUGE increase, and I suspect it is much more than your kitty needs! We usually recommend increasing by 0.25 and holding the dose for several days until you can see fairly how your cat reacts to the new dose. When you increase by larger amounts, you are apt to go beyond the dose that works for your cat.

Most insulin is given at 12-hour intervals.

Any dry food except for Young Again Zero Carb and Evo Cat and Kitten is going to be way too high in carbs for a diabetic cat, and is also dehydrating. Our sugar cats need to be on canned/wet/raw diets with carbs kept under 10%. There are lots of readily available food that fit this bill, you don't need to buy expensive "prescription" food. This list may help you.
 
Hi and THANK YOU all so much. Here are the stats:
  • Her name is Jazzy.
  • She is on Novolin. It was 2 units AM and 2 units PM...vet increased to 5 total so it's 2 in AM and 3 in PM since Thursday PM. Bottle came with her.
  • She has only eaten standard kibble for years from what I understand, came with a bag of Science Diet. I switched her to the Purina diabetic cans (vet sold me on it) with half a 'bar' of raw Primal Nuggets beef/salmon each meal. I also bought Merricks Limited Ingredient no grain/no potato kibble as filler because she is going thru so much food...but I add water and it is a soft food by the time she gets it.
  • Her bloodwork was OK, kidneys a bit high but thyroid and liver OK. Had a mild fever but She had a sore on her hind foot that popped at vet ( i had no clue) so they treated with antibiotic shot and I am tending to it with peroxide - it drained and is healing.
  • I gave her 100 cc subcu with .5 b12 on Thurs (I had kidney failure kitty for years) and will repeat tomorrow, it really perked her up and vet said 1x a week is good for her - was going to today but the new poking with lancet (ReliOn) made me feel bad for her.
  • She was doing huge poops daily but no poop yet today, just three big pees.
 
OK, 2U then 3U is much more reassuring than 5 and 5!!!! I think Novalin is more forgiving of inconsistent dosing intervals than the insulin I was thinking of, but it will have an effect-- the PM dose will come "earlier" than the AM dose, and with the larger dose coming in the evening, it's a bit of a double-whammy, so we might want to think about that schedule some more later.

Other than that, there are definitely a couple things going on that could be elevating her BG levels. The sore is one, though I'm guessing it's bothering her less and less each day. The other is the dry food-- sadly, the Merrick is pretty high in carbs (around 37%), even though it's overall a pretty high quality dry. If you switch her to a completely low-carb diet it would likely help her BG numbers a lot, but to keep her safe, you would want to do the switch gradually and make sure that you can monitor closely during the transition, especially on the day when she's completely switched over.

The canned and raw food you are using is good stuff, but as you've no doubt noticed, it's pretty pricey, especially when you have a cat that is ravenous all the time! For that reason, most of us here use commercial cat foods such as Fancy Feast or Friskies pates, but there are a lot of other good options on the list Squalliesmom gave you. You want to stick to things that are listed as being less than 10% carbs, ideally around 5% or lower.

Welcome to you and Jazzy!
 
Thank you!!!! Should I do 7:30/7:30? I will take you up on the pates - might get the Young Again stuff for her. Can I keep feeding her throughout the day? In what quantity? And...what should/can I do for fiber?
 
7:30-7:30 would be a better insulin schedule, yes. You can feed her throughout the day; most diabetic kitties do best with frequent small meals rather than one or two large meals a day. Just remove her food about two hours before shot-time , so when you test prior to shooting you know her numbers are not food influenced. We recommend test-feed-shoot, in that order. That helps insure that it is safe to give her her shot. Novolin can sometimes bring about steep, sharp drops in bg, so it's best if you feed Jazzy (love her name!) about 1/2 hour before you shoot. We also suggest you test at least once mid-cycle.

She will probably continue to be hungry until her diabetes is better controlled; her body can't properly utilize the calories she is consuming so at this point she is, literally, starving. Once she's better regulated you will likely need to reduce the amount she is eating.
 
Thtathy said:
Hi and THANK YOU all so much. Here are the stats:
  • Her name is Jazzy.
  • She is on Novolin. It was 2 units AM and 2 units PM...vet increased to 5 total so it's 2 in AM and 3 in PM since Thursday PM. Bottle came with her.
  • She has only eaten standard kibble for years from what I understand, came with a bag of Science Diet. I switched her to the Purina diabetic cans (vet sold me on it) with half a 'bar' of raw Primal Nuggets beef/salmon each meal. I also bought Merricks Limited Ingredient no grain/no potato kibble as filler because she is going thru so much food...but I add water and it is a soft food by the time she gets it.
  • Her bloodwork was OK, kidneys a bit high but thyroid and liver OK. Had a mild fever but She had a sore on her hind foot that popped at vet ( i had no clue) so they treated with antibiotic shot and I am tending to it with peroxide - it drained and is healing.
  • I gave her 100 cc subcu with .5 b12 on Thurs (I had kidney failure kitty for years) and will repeat tomorrow, it really perked her up and vet said 1x a week is good for her - was going to today but the new poking with lancet (ReliOn) made me feel bad for her.
  • She was doing huge poops daily but no poop yet today, just three big pees.
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I'm so glad you cleared that up! I thought you were giving 5 twice a day! Big difference. That was so nice to take on a diabetic cat, esp with no experience. We are here to help! You are not alone
 
Also, very important to test frequently when doing a transition from dry to wet food! Lowering carbs can dramatically lower bg and you need to be doubly vigilant to make sure Jazzy doesn't become hypoglycemic, which can be very serious, even deadly.

Regarding the 2U-3U schedule: might want to ask the vet about doing 2.5U-2.5U. Same amount of insulin but more evenly dosed. :)
 
Thtathy said:
Thank you!!!! Should I do 7:30/7:30? I will take you up on the pates - might get the Young Again stuff for her. Can I keep feeding her throughout the day? In what quantity? And...what should/can I do for fiber?
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If you snail or call the folks at young again they will send you a free sample of the Young Again Zero carb food. Youngagainpetfood.com

I credit it with getting my cat into remission.
 
:kiss: Thank you ALL for the time and great advice. You have put me at ease. I am going to do the 7:30/7:30, do raw/wet and no kibble until I get my Young Again and keep the testing.

Test-feed-shoot and timeline is especially helpful. Jazzy is so sweet and brave - had to give it a 'shot' ;)

SINCERE GRATITUDE,
Jazzy's Mom... Stacy (and Sammy/Pat my other kitties)
 
Thtathy said:
:kiss: Thank you ALL for the time and great advice. You have put me at ease. I am going to do the 7:30/7:30, do raw/wet and no kibble until I get my Young Again and keep the testing.

Test-feed-shoot and timeline is especially helpful. Jazzy is so sweet and brave - had to give it a 'shot' ;)

SINCERE GRATITUDE,
Jazzy's Mom... Stacy (and Sammy/Pat my other kitties)
Click to expand...
This is a super helpful easy to use and read spreadsheet that we all use and it will be helpful to us in giving dosing advice.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions
 
Squalliesmom said:
7:30-7:30 would be a better insulin schedule, yes. You can feed her throughout the day; most diabetic kitties do best with frequent small meals rather than one or two large meals a day. Just remove her food about two hours before shot-time , so when you test prior to shooting you know her numbers are not food influenced. We recommend test-feed-shoot, in that order. That helps insure that it is safe to give her her shot. Novolin can sometimes bring about steep, sharp drops in bg, so it's best if you feed Jazzy (love her name!) about 1/2 hour before you shoot. We also suggest you test at least once mid-cycle.

She will probably continue to be hungry until her diabetes is better controlled; her body can't properly utilize the calories she is consuming so at this point she is, literally, starving. Once she's better regulated you will likely need to reduce the amount she is eating.
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I have a question, you said to wait at least 1/2 hour after eating to shoot. My vet told me to give while eating because phoebe has such a good appetite. Am I doing wrong? Sorry to use this post but reading all newbie stuff.
 
Phoebes said:
I have a question, you said to wait at least 1/2 hour after eating to shoot. My vet told me to give while eating because phoebe has such a good appetite. Am I doing wrong? Sorry to use this post but reading all newbie stuff.
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I believe it is insulin-specific, it is recommended with Novolin but maybe not with the type you are using?
 
@Phoebes Angela, since you are using Lantus it's okay to shoot while Phoebe eats. Lantus works differently than Novolin and doesn't bring on sudden steep drops. I use Lantus, too, and shoot Squallie while he is eating. :)
 
Phoebes said:
I have a question, you said to wait at least 1/2 hour after eating to shoot. My vet told me to give while eating because phoebe has such a good appetite. Am I doing wrong? Sorry to use this post but reading all newbie stuff.
Click to expand...
It's OK as long as she's eating. I've given it while my cat is eating too... But if they are sick and suddenly stop eating and you shoot a regular dose they could dip low.... That's the thought with feeding beforehand. If you know she's feeling good it's OK.
 
Thtathy said:
:kiss: Thank you ALL for the time and great advice. You have put me at ease. I am going to do the 7:30/7:30, do raw/wet and no kibble until I get my Young Again and keep the testing.
Click to expand...

OK, just to reiterate: don't drop the kibble cold-turkey unless you can monitor very closely! It really is better to phase it out over a few days (by which time the YA will probably arrive), removing dry food while giving insulin can lead to some very abrupt falls in blood glucose (dangerous!).
 
Thtathy said:
She is on Novolin.
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What specific Novolin?

Novolin is Novo Nordisk's trade name for a family of Recombinant DNA origin insulins. They include N (sometimes called NPH), and R (very fast actions) and mixture of the two. Only N/NPH is OK, but not that good, for cats.
Novo Nordisk's Novolin insulin is typically less expensive that Eli Lilly's Humilin.
Walmart also the same insulin under there house brand of Relion and it less expensive than Humulin and Novolin
 
Update. Sooo, the moral of the story is...NOW I know the difference between a u40 and u100 syringe. It only cost me one ReliOn meter, a lost night of sleep and a bit of my dignity.

I was doing her readings but they became more difficult as she was climbing me and meowing and BEGGING for more food. Huge urine clumps in box and no poops. 365 reading consistently...even with the .5 increase in dosage. NO kibble, ONLY wet...high numbers. Small meals adding up to a whole can of DM and a whole 'bar' of raw. Gave in and gave moistened kibble. No relief. Getting blood became impossible because she would climb me and howl and...I am single so no help to draw blood. MIGHT have thrown new ReliON meter across the room and smashed it...oops.

Came home from work, more pee, no poops and starving cat. Called vet, convinced that the insulin that came with her was corrupt...vet checked with local internal meds vet and...suggested change from Humulin to Vetsulin. I made arrangements to pick it up first thing in am and she mentioned 'uses u100 syringe.' Until now, I only knew of gauge and needle length. Fished out the original 2 needles that came with Jazz...u40. So by using the u100, I had accidentally been giving her less than half the dose she needs because I did not know that the ratio is 2.5 times...even with the small increase suggested by vet, she was getting way too little.

So...at $56 a bottle, I am going for the Vetsulin. And going to use the Young Again food. And buy another meter. OY. Fingers crossed that both of us gals have an easier night. Can cats have pinot noir? ;)

Is there a laugh to be had yet?
 
Omgosh so sorry. No wine but I am sure she won't mind you having her portion!! Hope you have a better night. You taugh me something tonight as well. Did not know that about the needles either. Luck has it I have the right ones!!
 
Um.... Not to confuse things more, but... I thought it was the other way around, Vetsulin normally uses U40 and Humulin U100? Can the Vetsulin users confirm this?
 
Thtathy said:
Update. Sooo, the moral of the story is...NOW I know the difference between a u40 and u100 syringe. It only cost me one ReliOn meter, a lost night of sleep and a bit of my dignity.

I was doing her readings but they became more difficult as she was climbing me and meowing and BEGGING for more food. Huge urine clumps in box and no poops. 365 reading consistently...even with the .5 increase in dosage. NO kibble, ONLY wet...high numbers. Small meals adding up to a whole can of DM and a whole 'bar' of raw. Gave in and gave moistened kibble. No relief. Getting blood became impossible because she would climb me and howl and...I am single so no help to draw blood. MIGHT have thrown new ReliON meter across the room and smashed it...oops.

Came home from work, more pee, no poops and starving cat. Called vet, convinced that the insulin that came with her was corrupt...vet checked with local internal meds vet and...suggested change from Humulin to Vetsulin. I made arrangements to pick it up first thing in am and she mentioned 'uses u100 syringe.' Until now, I only knew of gauge and needle length. Fished out the original 2 needles that came with Jazz...u40. So by using the u100, I had accidentally been giving her less than half the dose she needs because I did not know that the ratio is 2.5 times...even with the small increase suggested by vet, she was getting way too little.

So...at $56 a bottle, I am going for the Vetsulin. And going to use the Young Again food. And buy another meter. OY. Fingers crossed that both of us gals have an easier night. Can cats have pinot noir? ;)

Is there a laugh to be had yet?
Click to expand...

Sorry about all the trouble you and Jazzy have been going through!

Vetsulin requires the use of U40 syringes, not U100.
It is possible to use U100 syringes with Vetsulin if you have a conversion chart and are very experienced; otherwise, it is not recommended.

I have wanted to throw my meter across the room many times, lol! And the lancets, and the food, and the insulin...just about everything except the cat!:):):)
 
Better that mistake of giving her too little rather than 2.5x too much!

Good luck. If you need help or have questions just ask.
 
OK, I'm going to throw another caution out here: if you have truly been under-dosing Jazzy for a while, please don't start her on the full dose suggested by the vet until you have a new meter and can test!!!!! She likely does need more insulin, but it would be a huge jump all at once, and could be very dangerous!!!
 
I don't know how to feel sorry the most for, you or Jazz. She must have felt awful.I hope you both feel better.

By the way, with Vetsulin, you use U-40 syringe. That's very important.
 
3 weeks in and I am pleased to announce that Jazzy has been off insulin for almost 6 straight days. I did a full two day curve one weekend to get 1) a gauge on her ups/downs and to see when she had spikes; and b) to get us "ok" with the testing/pricking scenario. She was consistently high in the AM and always hungry...so:
  • I bought the ReliOn Confirm that needs a tiny .3ul sample which I highly recommend...has made the testing much faster & easier and results come in 5 seconds.
  • I started her on Young Again Zero two weeks ago which is a game changer. Yes, she had diarrhea for three days and the poops are unbelievably stinky, but now they are firmer and less volume. Oh, and she farts a lot; nothing audible but...ya.
  • Got the Petsafe 5-meal feeder. This has been the clincher and after a week of this plus the new food...amazing results. I test and feed at 7AM & 7PM, so her 'booster' meals are 11P, 2:30A, 5A (very small amt), 1PM and 5PM (very small amount). The hardest thing of all is programming that dang feeder and doing the math, and I should redo the programmed times soon to be more even. She was eating all that she was given at first, but as Young Again proclaims, she has been amending the quantity consumed gradually and self-regulating.
Of note: She went to 50's and all the way down to 20 one day in a 2 day span...but I read (http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com/faq.html) that the drop was OK solely for diabetic felines while food change and close monitoring was going on AND her behavior remained 'normal' with no signs of hypo; she played/ate/peed/pooped/purred so I did not flip out.

She has been hovering consistently around 200, lowest dips are 175 in PM and the highest it has been is 238 in AM.

Her coat is less dull and clumpy, water consumption way down and her pee volume is notably reduced. She purrs like a freight train and plays like a 4 year old. Her eyes are less cloudy. I am not going to claim 'remission' until I get consistent results for 4 straight weeks and will continue to test, regardless.

Thanks to EVERYONE who helped a terrified, inexperienced newbie. All of your tips and messages lead me to this point and I want to be an example of how it can be managed so that all diabetic shelter/surrendered kitties can find homes. I know it is early on but the three things I incorporated have given her some better days and hopefully many more to come. So that Mom can go on vacation some day and not worry about the Jazz. XO, Stacy
 
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I'm glad she's doing well... Normal numbers should be 65-150 on pet meters and 60-120 on human meters, so she may still need small doses of insulin support to get the numbers down a bit more.
 
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