? uncontrolled BS levels over 500

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Bunny

Member Since 2014
It's been a very long time since I've been on here. I have a very complicated situation.
I have 4 cats in my small apt. 1 elderly cat who seems to be getting along fine, then there is Crash...the diabetic, another older cat who has bowel issues and is on baby food because she can't poop, then there is the youngest who is fine just a very small cat and prefers to be on the screened in patio. My problem is with my diabetic, Crash. His levels range from 400-570 and sometimes higher. He is on novolin 70/30 24 units twice a day. The vet has tested his thyroid and can not figure out why his levels are so high and he requires so much insulin. Crash has also been urinating in the living room and my bedroom on the carpet. this has been going on for months. I now carry him to the litter box several times a day and during the night. I can't afford a specialist. I will not put him down. Giving him up to a shelter would be signing his death warrant. No one will adopt an older cat with severe diabetes. Besides, it would break my heart to give him up. I found him in the middle of a busy intersection after he had gotten hit by a car. He had a fractured skull, 2 broken legs and several lacerations around his rib cage. That was about 12 yrs ago. I am open to any suggestions on what to do. Has anyone ever used the Feliway products? I thought maybe if I could reduce the stress between Crash and Pepper (the one who can't poop) then maybe his levels would come down and he might stop urinating outside the box.
Please note that all 4 of my cats are rescues, all found abandoned or abused. Pepper was found covered on motor oil in extreme heat. The vet thinks maybe this is what caused her bowel problem because she was trying to clean herself and ingested some motor oil.
Any advice will be helpful.
Crash eats 2 cans of fancy feast twice a day and he still has a very aggressive appetite. He will steal food right out of your hand and off your plate. he dives into the trash can to get what ever he can.
Thank you for taking the time to read this.
Bunny
 
Bunny,,,,,
Have you tried mixing the fancy feast with some shreded boiled chicken? I did that with my boy Christopher for a while .... It is pure protein and will fill up the tummy. I also gave it to him as a between meal treat on occasion. I would toss it around the living room so he would have to "hunt" it. That got him active since he was overweight and would only run for food. LOL. Maybe give that a try.
Also..... for the older baby with the not pooping issues..... I have a girl with cancer and I sprinkle 1/8 tsp of mirilax in her wet food once a day. Helps soften her poop so she can defecate past the anal tumor.

Hope this helps and bless you for taking care of all your fur babies
 
Hi Bunny, 24 u BID is a lot of insulin. If you are home testing and can set up a spreadsheet with Crashes numbers it will be easier to see what's going on. If he's been on Novalin all this time, perhaps a good first step would be a change in insulin to Levemir or Lantus. They last longer and are considered to be much better for cats than Novalin. I'll tag a couple of high dose experts to help you. @Wendy&Neko
@julie & punkin (ga)
 
Kristine said:
Bunny,,,,,
Have you tried mixing the fancy feast with some shreded boiled chicken? I did that with my boy Christopher for a while .... It is pure protein and will fill up the tummy. I also gave it to him as a between meal treat on occasion. I would toss it around the living room so he would have to "hunt" it. That got him active since he was overweight and would only run for food. LOL. Maybe give that a try.
Also..... for the older baby with the not pooping issues..... I have a girl with cancer and I sprinkle 1/8 tsp of mirilax in her wet food once a day. Helps soften her poop so she can defecate past the anal tumor.

Hope this helps and bless you for taking care of all your fur babies
Click to expand...
Thank you Kristine. I will try the boiled chicken.
I have been giving Pepper 1/8 tsp mirilax with reg canned food mixed with 2 Tbsp of water but that didn't work. Thats why I went to babyfood. I don't think he can have anything solid any more. I was even liquefying all his food and that didn't work. So now its babyfood and mirilax all mixed with 2T. water
 
Sharon14 said:
Hi Bunny, 24 u BID is a lot of insulin. If you are home testing and can set up a spreadsheet with Crashes numbers it will be easier to see what's going on. If he's been on Novalin all this time, perhaps a good first step would be a change in insulin to Levemir or Lantus. They last longer and are considered to be much better for cats than Novalin. I'll tag a couple of high dose experts to help you. @Wendy&Neko
@julie & punkin (ga)
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Thank you Sharon, I will look into the levemir and lantus insulins. I will just need to know at what dose to start at? Since he has been getting 24 units BID and levels are still running over 500. I will start on a weekend so I can monitor BS levels frequently to see how he is responding. I have noticed with the novolin he gets down to a good level (120's 130's) then rapidly goes back up again. That's why the vet thought it might be his thyroid but all thyroid tests were normal.
 
novolin 70/30 is a mixture of 70% NPH/N insulin and 30% R insulin. While N/NPH insulin is not the best for cats, the mixture of N/NPH and R is even worse since R is faster acting than N/NPH.
The oly conditions where 70/30 might be satisfactory is the high-dose acromegaly conditin
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...-other-high-dose-conditions-what-we-know.375/
My MurrFee had that and was one about 22 units Levemir and 20 units N/NPH. I know know other acromegaly cats where were on a combination of Levemir and R.

Do you have any BG curves?
 
Your poor kitty has been through a lot. :bighug: Bless you for taking care of him. Are you home testing his blood sugars? If so, would it be possible to put some of the recent values in this spreadsheet format? It's the tool most of us use to track the sugars and figure out how to dose our cats. Home testing is how you can keep your kitty safe and values from the vet office can be inflated due to stress.

As Sharon says 24 units twice a day is a lot of insulin, although we have had cats on more, but only after they started low and increased according to one of our dosing methodologies so we knew it was a good dose. The longer lasting insulin (Lantus and Levemir) s are better as a basal insulin for larger doses. I would recommend a change to Levemir. Some kitties find that Lantus stings at higher doses, should Crash need really need a large dose of insulin.

As Larry mentioned, acromegaly is one condition that can explain the need for large doses of insulin. One in four diabetic cats has acromegaly, though not all need high doses of insulin.
 
Kristine said:
Bunny,,,,,
Have you tried mixing the fancy feast with some shreded boiled chicken? I did that with my boy Christopher for a while .... It is pure protein and will fill up the tummy. I also gave it to him as a between meal treat on occasion. I would toss it around the living room so he would have to "hunt" it. That got him active since he was overweight and would only run for food. LOL. Maybe give that a try.
Also..... for the older baby with the not pooping issues..... I have a girl with cancer and I sprinkle 1/8 tsp of mirilax in her wet food once a day. Helps soften her poop so she can defecate past the anal tumor.

Hope this helps and bless you for taking care of all your fur babies
Click to expand...
Kristine, I tried the boiled chicken for the 1st time last night mixed with 1 can fancy feast. His BS was 589 last night before he ate, this am it was 307. Thank you sooooo much for the tip.
 
Larry and Kitties said:
novolin 70/30 is a mixture of 70% NPH/N insulin and 30% R insulin. While N/NPH insulin is not the best for cats, the mixture of N/NPH and R is even worse since R is faster acting than N/NPH.
The oly conditions where 70/30 might be satisfactory is the high-dose acromegaly conditin
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...-other-high-dose-conditions-what-we-know.375/
My MurrFee had that and was one about 22 units Levemir and 20 units N/NPH. I know know other acromegaly cats where were on a combination of Levemir and R.

Do you have any BG curves?
Click to expand...
Thank you Larry. I have never heard the term "acromegaly" I will look that up and learn more about it.
With his BG levels over 500 the mixture is needed. I monitor his levels to make sure he doesn't drop too low. He gets to a good level (120's-130's) then rapidly goes back up into the 500's. I have another appt with my vet tomm.
What did you mean by BG curves?
 
Sharon14 said:
For starting dose info, post in the Lantus Levemir forum.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/lantus-glargine-levemir-detemir.9/
You will need a prescription from your vet. Both insulins are very expensive in the US and many order theirs from Canada. https://rxcanada4less.com
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Thank you Sharon I never thought of looking for a Canadian site to get the Levemir. I did go to the manufacturer's site and was able to print out a discount card for saving's up to $100 for 30 day supply that's good for 2 yrs. (only with prescription). I called the pharmacy and found out the bottle is $318 but the pen is $76, so with the card I can get the pen which holds 15ml for $25. I did explain to the pharmacist that this is for a cat and he said the discount should still work. I have an appt with my vet tomm. Thank you so much for your help.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
I forgot to ask, how long has Crash been on insulin and how did you get to 24 units?
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Crash has been on insulin now for about 3 yrs. Since he was diagnosed. The vet started him on 2 units daily then BID. That was quickly increased by 2 units at a time where he stabilized at 22 units BID then began running a little low a few months ago so I decreased him to 16 units BID. I was feeding him 1 can of fancy feast BID but he was always so aggressively hungry. Stealing food off the counter, off our plates, out of the trash. I noticed he was loosing weight. (since his diagnosis I stopped the dry food bowl that was down all day so he could eat whenever he was hungry). When I saw his rib cage and felt his vertebrae I felt like he might be starving. I also noticed his levels were over 500 and he started urinating on the carpet. I thought maybe he is starving so I increased his food intake to 2 cans fancy feast BID. He has since gained weight and looks much better with the exception of his numbers.
I took Kristine's advice (as she stated in an earlier comment) and gave him 1 boiled chicken tender mixed with 1 can of fancy feast. His level before he ate was 589, I gave him the 24 U novolin 70/30 with his dinner. This am he was 307. I decreased his dose this am to 17 U. However, he is back to being aggressively hungry.
I will bring my meter to work with me tomm am and list his levels. Any help you can give me will be greatly appreciated.
 
The insulin you are using is short term. So Crash would have very little in his system before next dose. If you do change to Lantus or levemir, you can get it from here. You will need a script and can take at least 7 days to get it. https://rxcanada4less.com/index.html

If you get the box of 5 pens it will last a long time if refrigerated properly. I am still using a pen I started in February. Using insulin syringes you can get every drop of it. I have also used a vial that took 6 months to use up.
 
Bunny said:
He gets to a good level (120's-130's) then rapidly goes back up into the 500's.
Click to expand...
That BG behavior is due to the insulin you are using. All N would be better but not that much unless you dosed three times a day.
With your likely high dose I would get Levemir from Canada since Lantus tends to sting at high does based on reported human experience.
 
I wasn't ignoring that @Sharon14 tagged me - I've been gone for vacation. Just wanted to send you a little bit of encouragement. A cat needs as much insulin as they need, but you want to have good data to back up the dose. I'd encourage you to start a spreadsheet so we can see what's going on a little better.

Hang in there - you've obviously done a great job caring for Crash! I agree that switching to Lev (that would be my first choice in your situation) might help you get his blood sugar more stable. If you decide to do that, definitely post on the Lantus/Levemir support group for help with a starting dose and to learn how to best use it.
 
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