Trying to understand nutrition labels on cat food

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Basic's Mom

Basic's Mom

Member Since 2023
The carbohydrates have changed in Dr. Elsey's cleanprotein kibble. I'm assuming this change took place with the somewhat recent formula changes. I wanted to bring this to attention because we often advise that it is 4% carbs and it isn't anymore.

Dr. Elsey's cleanprotein Chicken recipe is 8% carbs.

Protein: 59%
Fat: 17%
Fiber: 4%
Moisture: 12%

Dr. Elsey's cleanprotein Salmon recipe is 10% carbs.

Protein: 54%
Fat: 20%
Fiber 4%
Moisture: 12%

Depending on the severity of response your cat has to carbs, the 4-6% differnece can matter.
 
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What does 'as is kibble' vs 'dry weight' mean? I know what as is means, but I'm not sure what I'm comparing. I guess I'm not understanding what guaranteed value means either.
 
Snickers and Chrissy said:
I get a little confused by this too. I wish pet food labels were clearer. :)
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RIGHT?!?! Who knew you'd need a mathematical degree to understand any of it. I'm hopeful someone will explain this though. I'd like to be able to look at label, know the correct calculations to use to find the information I'm looking for.
 
Basic's Mom said:
RIGHT?!?! Who knew you'd need a mathematical degree to understand any of it. I'm hopeful someone will explain this though. I'd like to be able to look at label, know the correct calculations to use to find the information I'm looking for.
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I swear someone just posted something about this with a link to a carb calculator. Let me see if I can find it.
 
@Basic's Mom Found it. I'm copying and pasting this from a post by @basilisk14

"Basically, add up all the components and subtract from 100%. That's the % of carbs. Then divide that amount by (100%-moisture) to get carbs by weight. You want that as low as possible.

So, for example, FF dry cat food:
34% protein
17% fat
3% fiber
10% moisture
--------------
64% (100-64 = 36% carbs)

Carbs by dry matter --> 36/(100-10) = 40% carbs by weight. No amountof insulin will counter that. We try to be under 10%. That's why wet food is best. There is also a great online calculator to help.https://scheyderweb.com/cats/catfood.html "
 
Snickers and Chrissy said:
I swear someone just posted something about this with a link to a carb calculator. Let me see if I can find it.
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I used that calculation, went to the site and used the calculator. Hahaha. It was posted a few days ago. Must not be what most use in this forum. Since calories and carbs are important to track for all of us, understanding it is important. I, personally, like to completely have an understanding of how things work. It is just how my brain works.
 
Basic's Mom said:
I used that calculation, went to the site and used the calculator. Hahaha. It was posted a few days ago. Must not be what most use in this forum. Since calories and carbs are important to track for all of us, understanding it is important. I, personally, like to completely have an understanding of how things work. It is just how my brain works.
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Oh! This is the site you used? Hmm. I don't really know what formula everyone on here uses then I guess. I'm always looking at the food chart, and find it immensely helpful, but I don't really understand the formula behind the calculations. It would be nice to know. @Larry and Kitties seemed to have a firm grasp on this. Maybe they have more info for us? I recognize my knowledge in this area is lacking and would like to learn.
 
Snickers and Chrissy said:
Oh! This is the site you used? Hmm. I don't really know what formula everyone on here uses then I guess. I'm always looking at the food chart, and find it immensely helpful, but I don't really understand the formula behind the calculations. It would be nice to know. @Larry and Kitties seemed to have a firm grasp on this. Maybe they have more info for us? I recognize my knowledge in this area is lacking and would like to learn.
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I used that one today. This one last night. http://felinenutritioncalculators.com/carbcalorie.html
The above referenced site uses the same formula that I saw here and used.

I also tried to find an answer to what Larry references above. This is what I found:
When you look at any pet food label, you will find the “as fed” guaranteed analysis of the food you just purchased. This will typically list minimum protein/fat and the maximum level of moisture/crude fiber contained in the food you just purchased. The “as fed” refers to the food in the bag that you will feed your pet. These nutrients do not show exact percentages of the listed nutrients. For example, protein is listed as a minimum content, but in reality, it is likely higher.

The best way to compare any pet food is to use “typical dry matter basis”. Typical refers to an average nutrient profile of a pet food over time. Companies generally take the average of many production runs when reporting these values. Dry matter refers to the food analysis without any moisture content. Kibble foods generally contain 4-10% moisture and canned foods generally contain 78-84% moisture. A canned food at 78% moisture and 12% protein would actually contain 54% protein on a dry matter basis. A kibble food containing 52% protein and 5% moisture would also contain 54% protein on dry matter basis. Without a common standard, it is difficult for the consumer to easily compare the large variety of foods we feed our pets.

From: https://www.youngagainpetfood.com/b...nce-between-as-fed-and-typical-dry-matter-bas

Still have no idea what this means.
 
Basic's Mom said:
I used that one today. This one last night. http://felinenutritioncalculators.com/carbcalorie.html
The above referenced site uses the same formula that I saw here and used.

I also tried to find an answer to what Larry references above. This is what I found:
When you look at any pet food label, you will find the “as fed” guaranteed analysis of the food you just purchased. This will typically list minimum protein/fat and the maximum level of moisture/crude fiber contained in the food you just purchased. The “as fed” refers to the food in the bag that you will feed your pet. These nutrients do not show exact percentages of the listed nutrients. For example, protein is listed as a minimum content, but in reality, it is likely higher.

The best way to compare any pet food is to use “typical dry matter basis”. Typical refers to an average nutrient profile of a pet food over time. Companies generally take the average of many production runs when reporting these values. Dry matter refers to the food analysis without any moisture content. Kibble foods generally contain 4-10% moisture and canned foods generally contain 78-84% moisture. A canned food at 78% moisture and 12% protein would actually contain 54% protein on a dry matter basis. A kibble food containing 52% protein and 5% moisture would also contain 54% protein on dry matter basis. Without a common standard, it is difficult for the consumer to easily compare the large variety of foods we feed our pets.

From: https://www.youngagainpetfood.com/b...nce-between-as-fed-and-typical-dry-matter-bas

Still have no idea what this means.
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Thanks! I've read some of that before but still get confused too. My brain just isn't good with math and formulas I guess. Every time I think I understand, I realize I don't. :)
 
Basic's Mom said:
I used that one today. This one last night. http://felinenutritioncalculators.com/carbcalorie.html
The above referenced site uses the same formula that I saw here and used.

I also tried to find an answer to what Larry references above. This is what I found:
When you look at any pet food label, you will find the “as fed” guaranteed analysis of the food you just purchased. This will typically list minimum protein/fat and the maximum level of moisture/crude fiber contained in the food you just purchased. The “as fed” refers to the food in the bag that you will feed your pet. These nutrients do not show exact percentages of the listed nutrients. For example, protein is listed as a minimum content, but in reality, it is likely higher.

The best way to compare any pet food is to use “typical dry matter basis”. Typical refers to an average nutrient profile of a pet food over time. Companies generally take the average of many production runs when reporting these values. Dry matter refers to the food analysis without any moisture content. Kibble foods generally contain 4-10% moisture and canned foods generally contain 78-84% moisture. A canned food at 78% moisture and 12% protein would actually contain 54% protein on a dry matter basis. A kibble food containing 52% protein and 5% moisture would also contain 54% protein on dry matter basis. Without a common standard, it is difficult for the consumer to easily compare the large variety of foods we feed our pets.

From: https://www.youngagainpetfood.com/b...nce-between-as-fed-and-typical-dry-matter-bas

Still have no idea what this means.
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Some of the calculators I've tried give me different percentages :nailbiting: Very confusing.
 
Okay. I get it now.

The figures I gave are nutrition minus moisture (dry weight or guaranteed values) which alters the numbers. "As is" figures includes the moisture. While I don't know the exact formula that is used to calculate the "as is" I understand why the figures are different. The calculations posted in the group that you copied here (that I used today) and from the veterinary site (I used last night) are calculating the dry weight or guaranteed values.
 
Basic's Mom said:
Okay. I get it now.

The figures I gave are nutrition minus moisture (dry weight or guaranteed values) which alters the numbers. "As is" figures includes the moisture. While I don't know the exact formula that is used to calculate the "as is" I understand why the figures are different. The calculations posted in the group that you copied here (that I used today) and from the veterinary site (I used last night) are calculating the dry weight or guaranteed values.
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Ok, so let me see if I'm getting this. The percentages that we want are the dry matter numbers. Not the "as is" numbers. Is that right?
 
Snickers and Chrissy said:
Ok, so let me see if I'm getting this. The percentages that we want are the dry matter numbers. Not the "as is" numbers. Is that right?
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We need both number. The formulas we need are in the link that was shared by Christie, along with why the calculations I was giving (and from those sites) isn't truly accurate. Read that when you can and then 50 11 more times. I know it will take me that long to truly comprehend it.

I'm determined to understand it even though my cats are starting raw. I think it will be beneficial.
 
Basic's Mom said:
We need both number. The formulas we need are in the link that was shared by Christie, along with why the calculations I was giving (and from those sites) isn't truly accurate. Read that when you can and then 50 11 more times. I know it will take me that long to truly comprehend it.

I'm determined to understand it even though my cats are starting raw. I think it will be beneficial.
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Ok I'll read and reread it till it starts to make sense. Hopefully my brain won't melt. :woot:
 
One can use either the dry weight or as is values but with the as is you need to subtract the moisture but that is already done in the dry weight.

The tables seems to be based on analysis of actual products (usually listed as as-fed value) which are different that the guaranteed analysis.

The values are weight% while one usually present the %carbs as % calories from carbs. One want <10 calories from carbs.
That is easy to calculate because:
  • ‌Carbohydrates:‌ 4 calories per gram
  • ‌Fat:‌ 9 calories per gram
  • ‌Protein:‌ 4 calories per gram
That is what the web calculators do
 
Larry and Kitties said:
One can use either the dry weight or as is values but with the as is you need to subtract the moisture but that is already done in the dry weight.

The tables seems to be based on analysis of actual products (usually listed as as-fed value) which are different that the guaranteed analysis.

The values are weight% while one usually present the %carbs as % calories from carbs. One want <10 calories from carbs.
That is easy to calculate because:
  • ‌Carbohydrates:‌ 4 calories per gram
  • ‌Fat:‌ 9 calories per gram
  • ‌Protein:‌ 4 calories per gram
That is what the web calculators do
Click to expand...
Thanks for the detailed reply! It's starting to make sense. :)
 
Just in case anyone finds this interesting.

Since this post I've been studying up on the carb calculations/formula. Marje was kind enough to walk me through some calculations so that I understand it all a bit better. It got me taking a closer look at the food I give Snickers.

I usually use the freeze dried treats with Snickers but like to give her an Applaws tuna puree once in a while for something different. I looked at the back label and then at the company's website, and the numbers for protein, fiber, and moisture didn't match. FYI, the back label lists the numbers as "guaranteed analysis," and the website states "analytical constituents." I'm still not sure what they mean by "analytical constituents."

Label
Crude Protein (min.) 5%
Crude Fat (min.) 0.1%
Crude Fiber (max) 2%
Moisture (max) 97%

Website
Crude Protein (min) 6%
Crude Fat (min) 0.1%
Crude Fiber (max) 1%
Moisture (max) 90.5%

I emailed the company to ask about this, thinking that perhaps "analytical constituents" was more of an "as-fed" number or something, versus the guaranteed analysis. They emailed me back with yet a different set of numbers and stated their information is out of date. Below is part of their email copied and pasted.

"Thanks again for contacting us and for choosing Applaws.
I can confirm that the information below is correct:

Crude Protein (min) 5%
Crude Fat (min) 0.1%
Crude Fiber (max) 2%
Moisture (max) 94%

So sorry for the confusion caused by this. We are currently in the process of updating our range (and the website) which has lead to some conflicting information being shared."

I've emailed them back and asked specifically for the "as-fed" and/or "dry matter" numbers. Waiting to hear back. But now I feel like I can't trust this company because none of these moisture content numbers match up. I've gotten three different numbers!

I guess I'm just posting as an example of how frustrating and difficult it can be to get the actual data out of a company. I do think Applaws is trying to answer my questions. I don't think they're giving me the run around or anything. I am just annoyed that their info isn't more straightforward. I don't think I'll be buying them again. I don't know yet. Still deciding.
 
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