Treating a diabetic cat for the first time

Status
Not open for further replies.
Krismarx

Krismarx

Member Since 2014
Hi,

First of all, i thank you all in advance for the help! :)

Well, my cat Cairo, has been diagnosed w/ diabetes and got started on insulin today. I have some doubts, and am sure the advice of experienced parents will make a huge difference. :)
So, i will begin with food:

Cairo is on the DM canned food. I am considering to start him on fancy feast classic, after reading on the internet that it contains less carbs than the one he's currently in. Anyone agree? Anyone feeding Fancy Feast C or DM? If you are, how much are you feeding your cat? A can a day, 2 cans? Cairo seems hungry all the time!

Insulin:

Is there a better time of the day to test his glucose? First thing in the morning before food, or after food? Then, how long after testing and giving the insulin shot should I test again to check if insulin is working well? He is currently on the lowest dosage: 1 unit per day. Last night the glucometer read 15.5 mmol :(

Glucometer:

What is a good number for a diabetic cat, meaning his diabetes is controlled? Is there a chart the shows a range of numbers from low to good to high numbers?

Walking funny

Will that go away once the diabetes has been controlled? Any advice on what to do?

Thank you, very much!

Krismarx
 
Welcome Kismax and Cairo.
- Very few of us here feed the prescription food. Low-carb canned like the FF Classics are very popular s are other canned food like Frikies. Is a a list of lo-carb canned.
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=94685
I would return the DM for a refund if you can. Two cans a days about right. Feed more if you want to gin weight and less if lose weight.
- Almost all here test the cat's BG before each shot and the in between shot. You do more in between shots when determining the right dose.
- What insulin are you using? Almost all cats requires twice daily dosing, close to 12 hours apart. Your 15.5 (276 mg/dl (USA)) is a good starting number before shots. You want to not let the cat go below about 70 anytime, which is usually 5-7 hours after shot. You adjust the dose to reach that. What is you get before shot depends cat the cat and the insulin used.
- What meter are you using?
- For the walking problem, called diabetic neuropathy, controlling the BG will resolve that but many also give oral methylcobiamin which yo can get at a vitamin store. About 2-5 mg/day

If you have any other questions just ask
 
Hi and welcome to Cairo and his bean.

Reference ranges for decision making

[Glucose reference ranges are unsubstantiated and have been removed by Moderator]
 
Cairo is on the DM canned food. I am considering to start him on fancy feast classic, after reading on the internet that it contains less carbs than the one he's currently in. Anyone agree? Anyone feeding Fancy Feast C or DM? If you are, how much are you feeding your cat? A can a day, 2 cans? Cairo seems hungry all the time!
Click to expand...

He will be starving until his BG (blood glucose) levels are better regulated. Without enough insulin, he can properly process the food he is eating, so will be hungry all the time.

The Purina DM is 3% carbs the DM Savory Selects is 10% carbs and both are ok for a diabetic cat. The main reasons many of us do not feed that food is 1. cost is high, 2. only the one flavor available and our picky cats refuse to eat it after a while.

I'm feeding the Fancy Feast classic pates and some of the Friskies pates. Wink loves the variety available. His BG (blood glucose) levels spike if I feed him foods over about 8% carbs, so I try for those 8% carbs or less.

When Wink was unregulated, he was eating 10-12 ounces of food a day. Now that he's in remission, he only eats about 6-7 ounces a day.

Weighing your cat can help you to determine if the amount of food you are feeding is enough. We usually say somewhere between 0.5 and 1 ounce of food per pound per day.

Look at the 3rd column on this food chart for other food selections, looking for foods that are <10% carbs. ECID Every Cat is Different so you will need to experiment to find out if higher carbs food spike the BG's for your kitty Cairo.
 
Hi Cairo and Krismarx!

Krismarx said:
So, i will begin with food:

Cairo is on the DM canned food. I am considering to start him on fancy feast classic, after reading on the internet that it contains less carbs than the one he's currently in. Anyone agree? Anyone feeding Fancy Feast C or DM? If you are, how much are you feeding your cat? A can a day, 2 cans? Cairo seems hungry all the time!
Click to expand...

Catinfo.org is a great website on feline nutrition written by a vet who actually understands that obligate carnivores are exactly that: meat eaters. :-D

Krismarx said:
Insulin:

Is there a better time of the day to test his glucose? First thing in the morning before food, or after food? Then, how long after testing and giving the insulin shot should I test again to check if insulin is working well? He is currently on the lowest dosage: 1 unit per day. Last night the glucometer read 15.5 mmol :(
Click to expand...
You want to test before food so the number is not influenced by a food spike. This is only necessary for the pre-shot tests and all other tests throughout the day should be taken regardless of feeding times since you will also want to know how food influences his numbers. As to when you should test again throughout the cycle, this depends on the insulin you're using. What were you prescribed?
Krismarx said:
Glucometer:

What is a good number for a diabetic cat, meaning his diabetes is controlled? Is there a chart the shows a range of numbers from low to good to high numbers?
Click to expand...
What glucometer are you using? Human or pet? I usually just use Wikipedia's Blood Sugar Guidelines, which are based off human meters. Since you're already home-testing, we also have this great spreadsheet to help you keep track of the numbers and spot patterns. It also allows you to share it with us in case you need some additional eyes to check it out.
Krismarx said:
Walking funny

Will that go away once the diabetes has been controlled? Any advice on what to do?
Click to expand...
As Larry mentioned, better regulation and methyl-B12 should help with this. Zobaline is the cat version. You can also get human methyl-b12, just make sure it doesn't contain xylitol or sugar (I use the Vitacost brand). It's safe to give and they pee out any excess.
 
Thank you very much for the warmth reception and great help! You are awesome! :)

Answering a few questions:

INSULINE: Lantus ( one unit per day ) lowest dosage.

GLUCOMETER: Accu-Chek Aviva ( human )

He is also taking a B-12 vitamin shot once a week.

I cannot find Fancy Feast Classic in my town. I do find Fancy Feast at Walmart and other supermarkets, but can't find the Classic ones. Are those difficult to find?

Yes, Cairo has been so hungry, that everytime I go to the kitchen he sits beside his bowl and start a meowing that will not stop until I give him food. When he eats it, looks like he was a starving stray cat that hasn't eaten for days. It breaks my heart. I am now giving him two cans of DM a day. He has lost a lot of weight since we changed his regular food to DM Dry ( my mistake) then, DM canned. He's been on canned only, since December.

So far, the glucometer readings has been ranging from 15 to 23.3 mmol.

I do test him before giving the shot :). I was not sure about what would be more appropriated: to test before, or after food. So, thanks for clarifying that also! :)

I am looking at all guides and spreadsheet you have shared! :) tks

Again, thank you very, very much for your help!!!

:)

I will keep you posted!!!
 
Classic ones should be at walmart. :) But they're always scattered in in my town. You can also look for Friskies classic pate. Bigger cans and cheaper too!
 
If you speak with the merchandise superviser in pet supplies at WalMart, you may be able to get in the varieties you want. They also have a ship to store option on their website.
 
Welcome to the FDMB Kris and extra sweet Cairo! (I'm assuming your name is Kris...if it's not, my apologies and we'd love to know what your name is too)

Where are you? From the fact you're using metric numbers in your test results, you're obviously not in the US...LOL ('m thinking you might be in Canada?)
Just a quick note on that though...most of us here are used to numbers in US terms, so when you give your test numbers, it'd help us a lot if you'd convert them by multiplying by 18.

When you do your spreadsheet, you can use the World one and it'll convert automatically for those of us in the US.

Lantus is an excellent insulin, but it does best on twice a day dosing, 12 hours apart, so if your giving 1 unit once/day, you should really go to .5 unit every 12 hours and as you get testing done, we can see how Cairo is doing on that dose and if he might need more. We do increases and decreases in .25 unit increments, so if you don't have syringes with 1/2 unit markings, you should check into getting some. WalMart has them here in the US. The .5unit syringes are as close as they come though, so when doing .25unit changes, you just have to eyeball it or use calipers for dosing.

It looks like WalMart in Canada (still assuming that's where you are) doesn't call the Fancy Feasts "Classics" like they do here. What you're looking for are the pate's...not grilled, sliced, with gravy, with sauce or Gravy Lovers, Florentine, Elegant Medleys, etc. Same for Friskies...you want pate's. Looks like they do have several Fancy Feast Assortment Packs but I can't tell which flavors they include. The Fancy Feast Chicken & Liver is one of my sugarcat's favorite flavors.

Keep asking questions, and we'll be happy to help you learn the steps of this new sugardance!
 
Thank you!!!

I have called WalMart and asked them to bring in the Fancy Feast CLASSIC. It was before reading Chris' reply in regards to the change of name: from CLASSIC to PATE. Assuming this might be in the Canadian territory. Thanks! I did see lots of FF Pate in there.
Yes, I am in Canada. I apologize for posting the numbers in the Canadian format. I will multiply it by 18 next time :)

I didn't know about Lantus being more efficient 2x a day. So I will divide the dose. :)

Would you mind sharing how your cat's feeding schedule is? If your cat keeps meowing for food, do you simply ignore it, for its own good? ( sorry, newbie here ).

How long it takes until you notice the insulin is working?

Thank you all again for helping us!!

Cris
 
Until regulated, a cat may need up to 50% more food than notmal because of the inability to use the calories from it. I put food down twice a day for the 15 in my household. It seems to average about 0.5 to 1.0 ounces per pound of cat divided into 2 meals ( ie 0.25 to 0.5 ounces per pound given in 1 meal). Generally, the food is gone by the next feeding.

There are indirect signs of improvement:
hunger, thirst, and urination will decrease
fur may look better and be less dandruffy
activity level may perk up with play and grooming
if you test the urine for ketones and/or glucose, you won't find them

See my signature link Secondary Monitoring Tools for some supplemental assessments you may wish to track.
 
I meal feed my cats, 4 times a day. They get 2 breakfasts an hour or two apart and then 2 dinners, about 3-4 hours apart. That works well with my erratic schedule. My 2 civies (non-diabetic cats) gobble up their food in minutes so I can't free feed. I still have to play guard for Wink, so the other 2 cats don't steal his food.

Some people use timed feeders.

Spreading out the food into more frequent mini-meals can take a load off the pancreas and help it to heal. Cats are unique in that many times, about 80% can regenerate the damaged beta cells, grow new cells and not need to be on insulin after a time. The more we can do to help the pancreas to heal, the better we can make them feel.
 
BJM, Deb & Wink, thank you for sharing your cats' meal schedule! It has been very helpful! You all, have no idea how much you are helping us ( my husband and I - newbies to cat diabetes ) to take the best possible care of Cairo. We lost our 13 years old weimaraner dog ( Kevin ) to hemangiosarcoma on December 31st. It has been really hard for us, and I can imagine to Cairo as well, after all he lost his brother who always protected and took really good care of him. They were very close, now Cairo sleeps on Kevin's bed. So we didn't put it away. I wonder if this terrible loss could also been affecting his diabetes?

Also, I have a question about methylcobalamin. I want to get Cairo started on it, as mentioned by Larry and KPassa. Should I get the human or cat version? Any difference?

I would like to express my deepest gratitute for all the help we have been getting from you! Thank you!

Cristiane

PS: Cairo's glucose read 414 ( in US ) today. It has been between 320 to 414. I will start Cairo on a divided Lantus dosage ( 0.50 twice a day) instead of 1 unit once a day. As suggested by Chris :)
I will keep you updated!

:)
 
Krismarx said:
...Also, I have a question about methylcobalamin. I want to get Cairo started on it, as mentioned by Larry and KPassa. Should I get the human or cat version? Any difference?...
Click to expand...
Whatever you get should have no sweeteners of any sort in it - no xylitol, starch, fructose, etc.
 
Xylitol has some toxicity in dogs, toxicity is not documented at this time for cats.

Since "Xylitol strongly promotes the release of insulin from the pancreas into circulation leading to a rapid decrease of blood glucose levels. Hypoglycemia (low blood sugar) can occur within 30 to 60 minutes of xylitol ingestion with levels as low as 0.1g xylitol /kg body weight.", we tend to steer people away from products with Xylitol in them for our diabetic cats.

So, be sure to order the pet version, not the human version.
 
Thanks Deb & Wink! Very informative! I will be carefully checking for xylitol and sugar in the brands I find. Unfortunately, I cannot order from amazon.com using the link KPassa kindly posted. They don't ship those to Canada. Tried the Canadian version but they don't have the proucts in question. I am trying to find a health store in the US that carries it and ship to Canada. I found some methylcolabamin to buy online through some Canadian stores. But there's no info it those tht I found contains Xylitol or other type of sweetners. I've sent an inquiry to them about it. Waiting for response. Cairo has been on injectable B12 once a week, as per his Veterinararian. Can he have both? Although it says sublingual, do you give it just as a normal pill, or mix it with food?
Just got a reply from the health store. The brands I found do contain xylitol. I will definitely make sure to get the Zobaline from a store in the US that ships to Canada. I feel more comfortable using the one indicated in the forum by an experienced member.

Thanks!
 
Cairo has been on injectable B12 once a week, as per his Veterinararian. Can he have both?
Click to expand...
Cyanocobalamin is probably the form of B-12 you are currently giving your kitty. It's often given to cats with IBD. The cyano B-12 can be given concurrently with the Methylcobalamin (methyl-B-12). Any excess will be filtered out by the kidneys, and excreted in the urine so you can not overdose on B-12.

Only the Methyl B-12 crosses over to the nervous system, so you need that to help heal the nerve damage caused by the diabetic neuropathy.

You might look into a compounding pharmacy for the methyl B-12. I was giving Wink injections of the methyl B-12 instead of a pill. That worked well but my source is here in the US and don't know if they ship to Canada.

Some people mix the pill into food. Others give orally, as they would any pill. It depends on how cooperative your cat is with getting pills.
 
Had a little time to burn up so thought I'd see what I could find to help with your search for the B-12

Now I'm not sure if this is the same thing, or what the dosage would be (since the ZobalineTM says it's 3mg and the Vitacost says it's 5000 mcg) but it looks like they're available in Canada

Best Fully Active B12 1500 mcg 60 vcaps (several different strengths ....Other Ingredients: Cellulose, modified cellulose (vegetarian capsule)

Folinic Acid with B-12 -Hypoallergenic 200 Capsules..Other Ingredients: Plant cellulose‚ calcium folinate‚ methylcobalamin‚ plant cellulose‚ capsules

Methyl 12 Plus Vegetarian capsules...Other Ingredients: Magnesium Citrate, L-Leucine, Vegetable Cellulose, and Silica

They're all capsules, so you could break them open and sprinkle the contents in food IF Cairo will eat it
 
Chris & China said:
Now I'm not sure if this is the same thing, or what the dosage would be (since the ZobalineTM says it's 3mg and the Vitacost says it's 5000 mcg) but it looks like they're available in Canada
Click to expand...

5000 mcg = 5 mg and they'll pee out any excess.
 
Thank you tons!!!!! BJM, Chris & China, Deb & Wink, KPassa, Larry and Kitties, Arienna!

I was able to find a 1000mcg =1mg B12 Methyl - Brand (LIFE) no Xylitol and no sweeteners at a Shoppers Drugmart close to our home.
I am giving it with food. But, should I give 5 pills at once (5mg), or divide it throughout the other feeding times?
Also, tomorrow I would like to do a curve (test him every hour). I read about testing by hour and every two hours. What do you do? Is there a way to minimize the pain of pricking the ear when doing a curve?

Thank you!
 
I mix it all in with their food in the morning. It's not a "daily" effect like insulin and can take quite a number of weeks before you see any difference. Plus, if the numbers are still unregulated, it might not be noticeable or seem to be working at all. It's another one of those "patience" things. :lol: In fact, I give it to Mikey (and Henry) even though Mikey has never shown to have diabetic neuropathy because I figure it can't hurt.

Krismarx said:
Also, tomorrow I would like to do a curve (test him every hour). I read about testing by hour and every two hours. What do you do? Is there a way to minimize the pain of pricking the ear when doing a curve?
Click to expand...

Curves are usually testing every two hours across the cycle with "mini-curves" being every three hours. There generally isn't any "pain" when it comes to ear-testing since their ears have very few nerve endings. When first starting out, however, there can be a sensitivity to their ears as they grow more capillaries. A lot of people will use neosporin (NON-cream) and put a little dab on the ear, wait a few moments, and then wipe off the excess before they start testing. Neosporin contains a local anesthetic to help numb the area and the greasiness helps the blood bead up so it's easier to slurp up into the test strip.

As for me personally, I've never ran a curve on Michelangelo. I just make sure I test a lot throughout the day/night and do a week-long curve instead, grabbing tests at various times across each cycle during the week. By the end of the week, I usually have a full 12 hours' worth of testing. Some people can't get as many tests in each day so it works better for them to do a curve every week or two. It's up to what works best with your schedule.
 
If I remember right, Neosporin is called Polysporin in Canada. Look for either Neosporin (or Polysporin) with Pain Relief Ointment. You want the ointment, not the cream, and adding the "pain relief" will help deaden the area because it has a mild anesthetic.

You can use it before testing to help with both any possible pain (although cats don't have a lot of pain receptors in their ears) as well as the ointment will help "pool" the blood, or you can apply it afterwards.

The B-12 that KPassa uses (the Vitacost) is 5000mcg, and the Zobaline TM is 3000mcg, so you could give anywhere between or up to 5000mcg.

The excess is peed out, so you can't really overdose them.

How are Cairo's numbers since you went to .5 units every 12 hours?
 
If you spread it out, more of it is likely to be effective. If you have more in the blood than you can process at a time, it is peed out.
 
Hello from another Ontarian. (Oshawa)

Purina have renamed the fancy feast classics in canada. They just call them "pates" - so look for pate on the label and you should be fine. Also the "tender" ones are fine. Watch walmart.ca, pet valu.ca and petsmart.ca for pricing as you can get good deals. I never pay more than 68c and sometimes less. For treats I buy a big bag of freeze dried chicken from walmart dog section and break it into bits. Cheap and low carb so great for diabetic cats.

Accucheck aviva is a good meter but if you are close to the border I would pop over and get a relion meter from Walmart - much cheaper meter and strips! Otherwise I use the bayer contour as I can get cheap strips on ebay.

your B12 shots and methylcobalamin should both be fine. I give it to my cats.

You can't get neosporin in canada.. use the polysporin ointment with pain relief. Also pick up a free sharps box from shoppers. once its full you can replace it for free there too.

let me know if you have any questions! and let us know how the testing goes!
Wendy
 
Thank you very much!!!

@Wendy & Tiggy: I purchased the pates at WalMart :) I will check for a different tester ( thanks for the insight ), I am looking forward to get one that checks Ketones as well. Got the sharp box!! :) I am using Polysporin as mentioned by KPassa and Chris & China! :)

@Chris & China: Cairo is now on a twice a day 1 unit dosage. I started yesterday actually and here are the readings I've got:

02/27 - 11AM (first pre-shot reading): 22.9 (mmol) 412.6 (mg) :shock:
02/27 - 11PM (second pre-shot reading): 18.6 (mmol) 335.1(mg) :sad:
02/28 - 6:25 AM (first reading since second shot): 10.4 (mmol) 187.3 (mg) :razz:
02/28 - 11AM (second reading): 5.3 (mmol) 95.4 (mg) :-D :-D :-D With this reading I didn't give him a shot.

Before today all the readings have been between 335 to 412

I am a bit confused now…

The goal is to keep it under control and within the accepted numbers. As the reading showed 187.3 (at the time I was expecting to give him his first shot of the day) I skipped that shot. It got me confused because now I am thinking that I have to expect it to spike again so I can give him the shot. If this is correct, wouldn't it make the dosage and application time inconsistent? I am really happy that he didn't need the shot ( If I did it right ) but wouldn't it mess with the routine/schedule thing?

Thanks!!!
 
Great!

You don't need to get a meter that tests ketones - they are expensive - better off just picking up a pack of Ketodiastix at Shoppers for $15 or so. There are like 60 urine strips in there so should last you a while

Can you set up a spreadsheet? (heres how http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207) It will help you track his readings and trends - plus you can share with us and your vet. Let us know if you need help.

For those readings I have added our nomenclature and some comments

02/27
11AM AMPS (a.m. pre shot test) 412.6
11PM PMPS (p.m. pre-shot test) 335.1
02/28
6:25 AM PMPS + 7 (7 hours after PMPS) 187.3
11AM AMPS 95.4

Its good you didn't shoot under 200 as you are new and don't know what he will do. Lets see where he is tonite but next time if you need to skip see if you can get a few spot checks during the day to see how he does without it and if he goes any lower. Remember time he goes under 50 he earns a 0.25 dose decrease.

Also I usually recommend 3-4 tests a day

- always before the shot - this is mandatory as you don't want to shoot when too low. As a newbie this too low number is 200 but is reduced over time once you have the data to know if its safe.
- mid cycle - 5-7 hours after morning shot depending on your schedule. This is to see how low the cat’s blood sugar is going. The low point "nadir" is what you base dose changes on since you don't want the cat dropping too low (under 50).
- before bed (2-3hours after Pm shot) to get an idea of what the cat's overnight plans are. If this number is less than the pre shot test number you may want to set the alarm for a test a few hours later as this implies an active cycle.

let me know on the spreadsheet!

Wendy
 
It looks like 1 unit twice a day might be too much! :-D You did right to skip it when he was only at 95 since you don't have enough data yet to shoot those low numbers. At first we suggest that if you get a pre-shot under 200, that you Stall, don't feed, and post and ask for help. Putting something like "Cairo..STALLING...help please" will help to get members attention as they scan the board, but it has to either be a new post (and therefore a new Subject line) or you have to go back to the first post and Edit the Subject line there. Eventually, the "no shot" number drops, but only after you have more tests in and know how Cairo reacts to both insulin and food.

We had discussed this before and I thought you were going to try going to .5 unit twice a day and see how he did. If you did try that, did you get some tests in?

Lantus does best when it's given at the same dose, twice a day, so we need to find a dose that doesn't take him so low at pre-shot that you can't shoot. It'll help quite a bit if you can get the spreadsheet set up and get at least those 4 tests per day in that Wendy listed.

It's great that Cairo is responding so well...Now we just need to fine tune his dose until we find one you can give every 12 hours!

How's he doing otherwise? Have you noticed any changes in his appetite? How much he pee's? Is he grooming more now? Playing and purring more? Those are some of the first things most people notice after they start insulin and their kitty feels better!
 
@Wendy

Thank you for the suggestion on the Ketodiastix! I thought a Meter would be better. Haven't tested him yet as I was totally relying on his behaviour and or appetite changes as indicative of Ketones ( newbie mistake ) nailbite_smile
I have finished the spreadsheet, coverted the numbers to US: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... utput=html
I should say I feel very embarrassed to see the cell's colours :oops:
Thank you for adding the nomenclature! I will use that from now on. :)
As everyone can see I was at the beginning, only testing him once a day PS. After that, started to check more times throughout the day.

@Chris

Thank you for letting me now about the "STALLING call" I will make sure to follow your advice!
Totally my fault, Chris!!! I got so desperate that his numbers were so high that decided to skip splitting the dosage into 2 and went ahead increasing the dosage. :-|

Appetite:
Cairo's appetite has been very good. He is not crying out loud for food every time we go to the kitchen anymore. But still very vocal when we get his bowl ( he knows food is coming and gets excited) eats everything!

Thirst:
I don't see him drinking from his water bowl anymore :? So I am adding a bit of water to the canned food (read that cats on strict canned food rarely drink extra water).

Stool:
Firm and not smelly anymore

Urine:
Usually twice a day ( not glued-clumpying pee anymore )

Behaviour:
He has been grooming himself much, much, more!
Talkative, when we are are interacting with him.
Purring more
Still walking on his hocks
Starting to get bothered by the ear pricking.


Vomit & Diarrhea:
NONE

Just tested him (8:59PM) … :((( 441 (what should I do now?) Should I give him .5 and another .5 tomorrow (12 hours after first shot)? The 1 unit/day clearly was not working.

He is eating now,I will wait 30 minutes to give him a shot. If someone sees this post and could give me a help on this I will appreciate.

Thank you!
 
Stick to the 12 hour schedule and wait it out.
Shoot 0.75 units every 12 hours. You'll have to eyeball that.

Take a look at my signature link Secondary Monitoring Tools for tips on urine testing, as well as other assessments you may want to make occasionally.
 
Great!

Can you add the SS link into your signature so we can always find it easily?

The hocks issue will take a while to resolve, the main factor being his High BG. Don't be embarrassed about it, you weren't to know this would happen and the important thing is that you are taking action now..

I would give 0.5 from now on and we can see how he does on it. (Hoping you are using syringes with 1/2 unit markings)



Wendy
 
Thanks Wendy!!!

My husband just went to the pharmacy to get the 1/2 unit marks syringes.

I was so happy this morning!

I am adding the SS to the signature. Good call! ;-)

Thanks again!
 
What may explain what happened is this...You gave 1 unit twice/day for the first time yesterday and by the end of the PM cycle, he had gone too low for you to safely shoot with the data you have. He may have gone lower.

Since his body isn't used to those lower numbers (even though they're in the normal range) his liver panicked and released hormones and sugars to bring it back up to where it's gotten used to being. This is called bouncing.

When they go lower than their body has become accustomed to, or they drop quickly (like from 400 to 300 in a couple of hours), even though the numbers might be in the normal range (50-120) or even if they're still high (but dropped 100 points quickly), the liver kicks into "survival mode" from when our kitties lived in the wild to protect the cat from going hypo.

Bounces can take up to 72 hours to clear, so we're always very careful not to increase the dose when a kitty is bouncing because when the bounce breaks, they can come down quickly, and if you've also increased the dose, you're asking for trouble...as well as setting them up to bounce again.

As Cairo's body gets more used to normal numbers, his liver will re-learn what normal is, and won't panic so much or in such a big way. When China first started, she'd bounce into the 400's too...now if she bounces, it's usually only in the 200's and she clears the bounce in one or two cycles.

Since you gave the .5 tonight, please hold that dose for at least 6 cycles (3 days) and try to get at least those 4 tests that Wendy mentioned in. If you can get more tests, that's even better since there's no such thing as too much data! I like getting a +2 or +3 because it can almost be a "crystal ball" into where China might go later in the cycle. If the +2 or +3 test is much lower than the Pre-shot number, I know to expect she's going to go much lower later on in the cycle so will get more tests in.

Don't worry! We'll help you learn the steps of this sugardance! The one thing you have to remember though....Your cat is leading the dance....all we can do is follow!

Edited to add...from your comments on how Cairo is eating less, peeing less and all the other things, it sounds like he's feeling better!! Isn't it wonderful to see them acting like the healthier kitties we remember??
 
Oh yeah...Now that you have your spreadsheet set up, and are going to test more, I'd like to invite you over to the Lantus Tight Regulation Forum

You'll get the most experienced eyes helping to watch over you and Cairo there, and we're like a big family. We watch over and really care about each other! And most everyone uses Lantus!

Each day, you start a new post (We call them condo's) with the date, the cat's name, and the AMPS number, so for example, today's would have been 2/28 Cairo AMPS 95

As you get other tests in (like a +6) you'd go back to that first post for that day and edit the subject line to add those test results...so (if you'd gotten a test 6 hours after the AMPS), it might say something like:
2/28 Cairo AMPS 95, +6 ##, PMPS 441

In the body of the post, you give the WCR (Whole Cat Report)..How Cairo is feeling. Good appetite? How are the 5 P's? (playing, purring, preening, peeing and pooping) Any other comments that might help us get to know Cairo better, as well as any questions you might have go here as well.

I hope you'll join us over in Lantus Land!!
 
Thanks Chris!!! It is so frutrating to see him going through this and have no power to keep it regulated until finding the right dose. He''s got his .50 dose yesterday night and...

441 PMPS (.5 shot given)
+5 408.6
+10 343.8

354.6 AMPS(.5 shot given)
+4 370.8 :(((

Also, he had really dry poop today. It was stuck half way. Had to pull it out ( hard as a rock + fur ). I am adding water to his canned food now, as I don't see him drinking from his water bowl. Appetite is good, purring, grooming himself, pee is ok.

His ears are really hot. They are usually cold. Should I be concerned?

I will join the LTRF! Thanks for the invitation :)

Cris
 
I'd bet you that Cairo just found himself a nice warm heating vent so when you felt his ears, they were nice and toasty warm. Or laying in one of those positions that only cats can lay in with their head tucked under their belly :lol:

Depending on where my cats have been lately, their ears are anywhere from cold to hot, so if he's acting normally otherwise, it's probably nothing to worry about. If you're absolutely sure there's no explanation, and the rest of him feels abnormally hot too, he may be running a temp and need to see a vet, but from the sounds of things, he's feeling pretty good and acting pretty normally.

Adding the water to his food is a good idea, and we actually recommend it anyway. Any extra water we can get into them is good for their kidneys! If he continues to be constipated, a little pumpkin (not pie filling) or baby food squash can add some fiber and help things along. Another option is Miralax, (or WalMart has an Equate brand that's the same thing only cheaper) which can be added to his food...about 1/8th of a teaspoon per day is where I think most people start.

We all truly understand your frustration with the numbers, but all you can do is hold on for the ride. It's better he's too high for a day, than too low for a minute!

Will be watching for you over in Lantus Land!

P.S...on your daily condo, add the link to the prior day's post so it's easy for people to quickly go back and see what's been going on and what you've already been told. Just copy the link address and click on the URL tab..Paste it between the brackets. your link here[url]
 
Thanks again Chris!
Cairo had bowel movement today! Glad he is not constipated!
I am however, worried about his numbers today...
03/01 PMPS 369 (.5 shot given) +4= 342 +7=307
03/02 AMPS 311 (.5 shot given) +4= 241 +7=299 PMPS 304 (.5 shot given), +5=385?
How come the glucose goes up after de shot? It went up from 304 to 385. It makes me wonder if I missed the spot and spilled the insulin on his coat? Is there any other explanation for this? It has been 6 hours since the last shot ( if that did go through) should I test again and if still going up antecipate the shot that is scheduled to happen in 6 hours? Also, what needle length you think is the best? Is there any difference in units between the U100 3/10 and 0.5?
I am updating his SS with today's numbers.

Thank you!
 
Meters are allowed to read within 20% of what a lab would get. This means a test value actually represents a range of values from 20% lower to 20% higher.
ex
50 -> 40-60
500 ->400-600

It matters most at low numbers where safety is a concern.
At high numbers, the actual number really doesn't matter. You need to figure out why it is high and determine an appropriate intervention.
 
Hey Cris!!

The glucose probably went up more in response to food than insulin, and it's also possible that .5 just isn't going to be enough for Cairo! Tomorrow morning will be his 6th cycle at .5, so let's see where he is tomorrow night.

If we do increase, we'd go to .75 unit, so you might want to practice where that is. It's not so important that you get exactly .75, but it IS important that wherever you decide it is, you use the same dose each time so it's consistent. Using an old syringe and colored water like tea, coffee or food coloring in some water will help. There isn't a "line" for .75...You just have to eyeball it.

Here are some pictures of several different doses so you can see where 1 unit, .5 and even smaller doses are on syringes. (These are BD syringes and different syringes are marked a little differently, but the very first line closest to the needle is always 0, the next line is .5, and the next line is 1 unit...as long as the syringes are marked in half unit increments) http://steverapaport.com/jock/SyringeFineGradations/

U-100 means there are 100 units of insulin in every 1 mL.....so your 3/10mL insulin syringes aren't EVEN a full 1 mL....they only hold at most, 30 units. Cairo is only on .5 unit twice a day right now, so not even a whole unit.

I think most of us use the 8mm needle length, but this is an individual decision. We don't want them too long because we don't want the insulin to go into muscle, but we want to make sure it gets into the cat too.

Please go ahead and move over to the Lantus Forum. It's just another board here where most everyone uses Lantus. You don't have to sign up for another site or anything. That's where you'll get the MOST experienced eyes...and lots of them!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top