Pringles has already lost one of her bottom fang teeth (not sure when). I noticed a few days ago her remaining bottom fang tooth is sticking out over her top lip. I think it may also be coming out. I made an appointment with the vet for tomorrow, but was wondering if this was something normal? I've asked the vet on previous trips if her teeth were okay and they were fine. I'm starting to 2nd guess this. Has anyone else had this happen? Is this more typical for diabetic cats to have teeth problems? I've never known a cat that lost it's teeth? Any insight is appreciated.
Tooth Falling Out?
- Thread starter Pringles
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Gina & Yittle (GA)
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Our 15+ (may be MUCH older, former feral) year old civvie Phoenix lost one of her teeth about 7 or so years ago? It was one of her 4 "fangs". We came home from doing a craft show and found the tooth on the floor. Took her to the vet to be examined, have her teeth cleaned etc and the couldn't find anything wrong with any of her remaining teeth. In fact of all our cats she has the best teeth, it wasn't until last year that they felt she needed her teeth cleaned again but by then with her age and the results of a blood test it wasn't advisable. We pretty much decided the surgery risk was bigger then the risk of not cleaning her teeth based on her age, and how good they still were. Some of her liver levels are a bit off, not enough to warrant treatment, but enough to make surgery more risky then we'd like. One of the downsides to having a very rough feral time in your life I guess. Even now I've got cats half her age with teeth that are much worse (and yes, we're saving up to get them cleaned, the estimate we have runs $300-$1000 and they won't know till they get in there and start working which end of the range).
As for why the tooth fell out, the vet decided she'd injured it during the 2+ years she was feral and that it had been loose in the gums. Over the years plaque had gotten under the gums and sort of squeezed the tooth right out. No other teeth had plaque on them but the tooth we found had a huge ring of it at the top. Besides her I had one cat have to have a fang removed after he ripped it from the gums during a really bad fight (shoulda seen the other guy....). Its possible your cat also injured their teeth at some point in their lives.
As for why the tooth fell out, the vet decided she'd injured it during the 2+ years she was feral and that it had been loose in the gums. Over the years plaque had gotten under the gums and sort of squeezed the tooth right out. No other teeth had plaque on them but the tooth we found had a huge ring of it at the top. Besides her I had one cat have to have a fang removed after he ripped it from the gums during a really bad fight (shoulda seen the other guy....). Its possible your cat also injured their teeth at some point in their lives.
Larry and Kitties
Very Active Member
Sometimes feline teeth will deteriorate at the gum line. This is called feline odontoclastic resorptive lesion (FORL). This can weaken the teeth causing it to break off will just little pressure/trauma. Infrequently severe periodontal disease will cause a tooth to come out intact. Does it look like the canine tooth is whole or broken off? Fro canine teeth, the length below the gum line is about equal to that below the gum line
Well we went to the vet today and the vet put some numbing solution on her gum and pulled the tooth right out. She said that her teeth must have been bad for some time since the tooth basically had rotted out at the base and the rest of her gums looked inflamed. She gave her the shot antibiotic, as I did not want to mess with giving her the oral dosage for a week. The vet said we should bring her in to get a dental and it was possible she may have to get more teeth pulled. I've been going to this vet for a few years now and they never indicated that she should get a cleaning. My other cat is almost 4 years older than her and his teeth seem to be in better condition than hers. I wonder if diabetes has something to do with more tooth decay, or if some cats are just more prone to this.
When she pulled her tooth out you could see the plaque on the base. Now she has no more bottom fangs :sad: I made an appointment for her teeth to be cleaned on Tuesday, but just hope she does ok on being put to sleep for it. I'd hate sometime to happen to her!
When she pulled her tooth out you could see the plaque on the base. Now she has no more bottom fangs :sad: I made an appointment for her teeth to be cleaned on Tuesday, but just hope she does ok on being put to sleep for it. I'd hate sometime to happen to her!
Sue and Oliver (GA)
Very Active Member
I am glad you got the tooth taken care of. I am wondering what long term antibiotic was used. We have had several long discussions on the board with the resident vet here about Covenia and the problems with it. I am hoping it isn't what your vet prescribed. http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopi ... f&p=275316
Yep, this is what she gave her. I started reading through the thread attached. I believe she has had this shot before and we didn't have any prior adverse effects, but I will have to do some research on this now... Too late to take it back. I was told it would be an easier option than giving antibiotics 2x day!
Sue and Oliver (GA)
Very Active Member
There is a thread down the page where the poster decided to go ahead and use it. http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopi ... 28&t=29135 Apparently it doesn't negatively impact every cat; we'll hope your kitty has no problems with it.
Just-As-Appy
Active Member
The scenario that you posted is exactly what happened to my cat (brother to my diabetic boy), except with the upper teeth. I almost posted this morning, but didn't want to be too negative. My cat had all but one tooth removed and antibiotics and pain meds for a while. He has recovered fine and is just as cheeky. He eats wet food with no problem. I haven't seen him catch anything in the barn, but he sure gave a rabbit a good chase a few weeks ago.
Gina & Yittle (GA)
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One of our younger cats has genetically bad teeth. By age 4 he needed them cleaned and had to have several removed. We joke he's so sweet he rots his own teeth out. It varies per cat, but usually by age 7 or so they need the vet to consider a teeth cleaning and then every few years after that as conditions warrant.
As for the Convenia, there's a serious risk to it. Yittle had it twice before I knew about it and he didn't have any issues, but I'd be really careful about giving it to any other cat I own in the future. Having said that, if the feral who's locked in my powder room right now and is on week 2 of his post-neuter socialization attempts needs an antibiotic for something that Convenia is actually good at treating... we'll be crossing our fingers and going ahead. I have zero chance of getting any non-injectable med into that cat. We can't even touch him. But my other 7, I'd pick something else first.
As for the Convenia, there's a serious risk to it. Yittle had it twice before I knew about it and he didn't have any issues, but I'd be really careful about giving it to any other cat I own in the future. Having said that, if the feral who's locked in my powder room right now and is on week 2 of his post-neuter socialization attempts needs an antibiotic for something that Convenia is actually good at treating... we'll be crossing our fingers and going ahead. I have zero chance of getting any non-injectable med into that cat. We can't even touch him. But my other 7, I'd pick something else first.
Lisa dvm
Active Member
Pringles said:
Thank you, Sue, for posting about the ongoing abuse of this antibiotic.
Plus, it is NOT appropriate to use this antibiotic for problems in the mouth.
I recently dealt with two more cats that died shortly after receiving Convenia. I do not know enough about the cases to emphatically say that convenia was the cause but I am getting so tired of watching my colleagues use this drug INappropriately.
With regard to treating ferals, crushed clavamox tablets in canned food would be a much more appropriate treatment than convenia.
Remember....most things in life that sound too good to be true.....really are.
Gina & Yittle (GA)
Active Member
I'll keep the crushed clavinox in mind. Hopefully he won't require any medication until such time as he's willing to allow human contact. They couldn't even take him out of the carrier to give him the flea/tick/parasite/worming stuff. They thanked us profusely for owning a carrier that has both a top metal grill door and a front door and just dropped the stuff through the grate and used a swab to rub it in. I should mention this cat has torn fixtures off of the wall in my bathroom where he is currently living, and also shattered the glass light fixture in the room (thats over 6 feet off the ground). Unhandleable is practically an understatement at the moment.
Lisa dvm
Active Member
If he is truly feral, why are you forcing an indoor lifestyle on him? Once-tame-but-currently-traumatized cats don't pull light fixtures off the wall. I deal with hundreds of ferals each year and find that humans....all too often....try to foist an indoor lifestyle on a panicked feral....one that, if given a voice, would say..." put me back in my own home!!!"
Maybe I have this situation all wrong but I see so many people getting into rescue work who are imposing their own agenda on a feral cat...by trying to make them an indoor pet....when the poor cat just wants to be AWAY from humans.
Maybe I have this situation all wrong but I see so many people getting into rescue work who are imposing their own agenda on a feral cat...by trying to make them an indoor pet....when the poor cat just wants to be AWAY from humans.
Gina & Yittle (GA)
Active Member
My parents have been feeding 3 cats outside for varying quantities of time ranging from a couple of months to 2 years. We trapped Cat 1 in the beginning of July, about one month after my diabetic Yittle succumbed to cancer. When he arrived he did a small bit of damage to the room. You'd be amazed at the velocity they get when you let them out of the trap. He kept trying to stand on top of the top portion of the window frame, which didn't work well. But we installed a window sill perch in the room and that sufficed for a security perch. It took awhile, but that cat is now named Kerry and he sleeps in my bed cuddled up in my arms every night and follows me everywhere I go in the house. He also gets along perfectly with every single one of my 6 other cats, including the cat that doesn't get along with any of the others. The vet estimated he was 1-3 years old, although he's so small, around 9lbs and the smallest cat I own that I figure he's closer to 1 or less. My parents had only been feeding him for about 2 months. So cat 1 down, we turned to cat 2.
Cat 2 would get within 4 feet of my father while outside being fed. Unlike Cat 1 who he couldn't get within 20 feet of. They assumed that this meant he was tamer But again, you open that trap door and wow can they climb the walls. It wasn't that hard for him to jump from the perch, to on top of a cabinet in the room and then I guess he tried to walk on the lamp fixture and failed. Hard to say, we woke up to shattered glass. This happened on day 3 or 4? After he'd been neutered and returned to the room. We're starting week 3 now and he hasn't done anything since but there's still no way I'm getting within 3 feet of him until his parasite fecal test comes back negative later this week. Assuming it comes back negative, obviously postive means more treatment. Vandal as I like to call him mostly sits in his cat condo or on his perch. He looks at us when we talk to him, he's eating heartily and he loves the cat treats. When we first got him, he was spraying things but he appears to have stopped. We'll see how that goes. We plan to keep him for a month or two and see what he wants. If he wants to be inside and can resist the urge to spray then he has a forever home at my parents house. If he likes humans but still wants to spray, then he's got a forever home at my parents in a warm shelter built outside, with daily food, water, and love. If he hates us, then we're going to have the vet tip his ear and back out he goes to their backyard (with the same shelter, food and water) and he can stay or leave as he pleases. But at least he'll be neutered. Although he'll still have to deal with the fact that my parents have a pair of foxes running around their back yard who appeared to be hunting the cats. They'd found where the cats were sleeping, were seen often around their feeding station etc. We might have to build a shelter in a tree.
Cat 3 is hopeless, fed for over 2 years and he runs about 50+ feet away every time they come out to feed him. He's on the list to be TNR'd as soon as he's trapped. However having trapped 2 cats from the yard before him thats going to be quite the job.
While Vandal's feats were a bit impressive, I've trapped and tamed a good number cats over the years myself and most of them did some property damage during the first 24-72 hours. Anytime you open a trap inside a powder room thats around 6 feet by 3 1/2 feet you've got yourself a pretty explosive feline in a very small area. Usually looks a bit like a shotgun blast - away from you but floor to ceiling and wall to wall. I've had them jump straight at the door clearing the top hinges, climb the wooden door, hang on the door, climb the tile walls, climb the window, climb the fixtures, tear loose tiles off the wall, rip fixtures off the wall, attempt to vault through the window glass - you name it. As of this moment, every single one of my previous attempts has become a devoted, loving, happy housecat. Several of them are waiting for me to finish this and feed them breakfast so they can fill up and then come to bed with me. Will Vandal be as successful, hard to say. But its impossible to tell in the first 2 weeks. While they are feral - in that they were born outside, lived outside, and their only interaction with humans was being fed by them outside and they were never handled by a human until they were trapped. That doesn't necessarily mean they cannot adapt. The older they get, the harder it is, but a cat who'd get within a few feet of a human outside is certainly worth a few months effort. In the mean time he's been vaccinated, neutered, treated for parasites, worms, fleas and ticks (and he had huge ticks on him when we got him). He's also had all the moist food he could eat and has filled out nicely. If he has to go back outside, he goes back out as a much healthier cat.
Cat 2 would get within 4 feet of my father while outside being fed. Unlike Cat 1 who he couldn't get within 20 feet of. They assumed that this meant he was tamer But again, you open that trap door and wow can they climb the walls. It wasn't that hard for him to jump from the perch, to on top of a cabinet in the room and then I guess he tried to walk on the lamp fixture and failed. Hard to say, we woke up to shattered glass. This happened on day 3 or 4? After he'd been neutered and returned to the room. We're starting week 3 now and he hasn't done anything since but there's still no way I'm getting within 3 feet of him until his parasite fecal test comes back negative later this week. Assuming it comes back negative, obviously postive means more treatment. Vandal as I like to call him mostly sits in his cat condo or on his perch. He looks at us when we talk to him, he's eating heartily and he loves the cat treats. When we first got him, he was spraying things but he appears to have stopped. We'll see how that goes. We plan to keep him for a month or two and see what he wants. If he wants to be inside and can resist the urge to spray then he has a forever home at my parents house. If he likes humans but still wants to spray, then he's got a forever home at my parents in a warm shelter built outside, with daily food, water, and love. If he hates us, then we're going to have the vet tip his ear and back out he goes to their backyard (with the same shelter, food and water) and he can stay or leave as he pleases. But at least he'll be neutered. Although he'll still have to deal with the fact that my parents have a pair of foxes running around their back yard who appeared to be hunting the cats. They'd found where the cats were sleeping, were seen often around their feeding station etc. We might have to build a shelter in a tree.
Cat 3 is hopeless, fed for over 2 years and he runs about 50+ feet away every time they come out to feed him. He's on the list to be TNR'd as soon as he's trapped. However having trapped 2 cats from the yard before him thats going to be quite the job.
While Vandal's feats were a bit impressive, I've trapped and tamed a good number cats over the years myself and most of them did some property damage during the first 24-72 hours. Anytime you open a trap inside a powder room thats around 6 feet by 3 1/2 feet you've got yourself a pretty explosive feline in a very small area. Usually looks a bit like a shotgun blast - away from you but floor to ceiling and wall to wall. I've had them jump straight at the door clearing the top hinges, climb the wooden door, hang on the door, climb the tile walls, climb the window, climb the fixtures, tear loose tiles off the wall, rip fixtures off the wall, attempt to vault through the window glass - you name it. As of this moment, every single one of my previous attempts has become a devoted, loving, happy housecat. Several of them are waiting for me to finish this and feed them breakfast so they can fill up and then come to bed with me. Will Vandal be as successful, hard to say. But its impossible to tell in the first 2 weeks. While they are feral - in that they were born outside, lived outside, and their only interaction with humans was being fed by them outside and they were never handled by a human until they were trapped. That doesn't necessarily mean they cannot adapt. The older they get, the harder it is, but a cat who'd get within a few feet of a human outside is certainly worth a few months effort. In the mean time he's been vaccinated, neutered, treated for parasites, worms, fleas and ticks (and he had huge ticks on him when we got him). He's also had all the moist food he could eat and has filled out nicely. If he has to go back outside, he goes back out as a much healthier cat.
Lisa dvm
Active Member
Gina & Yittle (GA) said:
I hope that I am misunderstanding this but it sounds like one of the options...if he is a sprayer who likes humans....is to get locked in a shed with no way to come and go as he pleases? I really hope that I am just not understanding this correctly because this sounds like the 'warehousing' that so many rescuers do to cats and dogs. I say "do to" because I see a lot of emotional torturing being done to animals within the "rescue" community. These people think that they are doing these cats a favor by keeping them safe between 4 walls but, in essence, they are just condeming them to prison life when the poor animal committed no crime.
These cats need to be rescued from their so-called "rescuers".
I have spent so many years watching animals treated worse than rapists and murderers....so this has become a very hot button of mine.
Gina & Yittle (GA)
Active Member
I'm a bit surprised that your immediate assumption is that the cat is somehow going to be mistreated. And frankly, I'm a bit insulted as well.
If you read what I wrote, I said that in either case the cat would have access to the same shelter, food and water. I also said the cat would be free to stay or leave as he pleased. I don't know how much clearer I could have been.
Its a lovely shelter, of the type commonly built in this area to house feral colonies and barn cats. Insulated, weather proof, with bedding and a wind break. He's used it in the past, as have cats 1 and 3 who have already chosen their fates. Cat 1 is ecstatic to be a house cat, and cat 3 is on the list to be TNR'd. I can't imagine why you'd think that I would forcibly imprison cat 2 when I'd already stated cat 3 was going to be TNR'd.
Regardless I think this thread has been hijacked and thats not fair to the OP, nor was it my intent when I mentioned Cat 3, aka Vandal. I apologize to the OP for this unintentional interruption.
If you read what I wrote, I said that in either case the cat would have access to the same shelter, food and water. I also said the cat would be free to stay or leave as he pleased. I don't know how much clearer I could have been.
Its a lovely shelter, of the type commonly built in this area to house feral colonies and barn cats. Insulated, weather proof, with bedding and a wind break. He's used it in the past, as have cats 1 and 3 who have already chosen their fates. Cat 1 is ecstatic to be a house cat, and cat 3 is on the list to be TNR'd. I can't imagine why you'd think that I would forcibly imprison cat 2 when I'd already stated cat 3 was going to be TNR'd.
Regardless I think this thread has been hijacked and thats not fair to the OP, nor was it my intent when I mentioned Cat 3, aka Vandal. I apologize to the OP for this unintentional interruption.
Hillary & Maui (GA)
Very Active Member
Pringle, Been reading this thread for a couple days now and interestingly enough - I'm the poster referred to in the other post about using covenia on a feral cat. While I understand and agree with what Dr. Lisa says, I felt the only option I had to save this cat was to use covenia. As I wrote in the other post, I would never use it on my own cats that I can medicate, but did allow it on the feral - I've been around this board for a couple years and have followed the covenia discussions on this and the old board.
Additionally, on Tuesday night, I discovered that one of my civvies' bottom canine (fang) tooth was horizontal in her mouth. Luckily, I was able to get her to the dental specialist last night and she will be treated this afternoon. I thought the tooth may have been a result of trauma (This cat has occasional seizures). After the dentist examined her mouth, she thinks it's resorption that caused it and the tooth area shattered under the gum line. The tooth is still intact in the gum and sitting sideways in the mouth.
She also noticed that she has a resportive molar and another molar that already resorped and the tooth is missing.
So that could be what happened with your cat - sadly it's very common in cats and according to the dentist, there isn't much we can do to prevent it from happening.
Hope this helps.
Additionally, on Tuesday night, I discovered that one of my civvies' bottom canine (fang) tooth was horizontal in her mouth. Luckily, I was able to get her to the dental specialist last night and she will be treated this afternoon. I thought the tooth may have been a result of trauma (This cat has occasional seizures). After the dentist examined her mouth, she thinks it's resorption that caused it and the tooth area shattered under the gum line. The tooth is still intact in the gum and sitting sideways in the mouth.
She also noticed that she has a resportive molar and another molar that already resorped and the tooth is missing.
So that could be what happened with your cat - sadly it's very common in cats and according to the dentist, there isn't much we can do to prevent it from happening.
Hope this helps.
Lisa dvm
Active Member
Gina & Yittle (GA) said:
This is what you wrote:
Gina & Yittle (GA) said:
To me, this sounds like two completely different scenarios: *If* he liked humans, then he has a "home" in a shelter.....but *if* he hated you, he gets access to the shelter but also the backyard. One clearly (at least to me but that is why I said that "maybe I am misunderstanding") makes it sound like there was a chance that he would be confined to a "shelter". The "if's" denote two different scenarios.
I see so many rescuers confining cats to 'backyard shelters' which are no more than prisons for the animals so I will never stop speaking out about this issue. I just don't see how humans can view a backyard enclosure...that a cat has to spend the rest of its life in...as a humane situation.
Gina & Yittle (GA) said:
The OP's original question has been answered so I offer no apologies for what you are terming as a "hijacking". Everyone on every thread has the option to stop reading but I will never miss the opportunity to address the situation discussed here. Many people read each thread and so comments are not necessarily directed at just one person.
There is no reason for anyone to feel "insulted" if they are confident in that what they are doing is in the best interest of the animal. My comments on this thread and on others are intended to bring these issues to light - with general comments like I have made on this thread. I have spent so many years watching animals suffer and the most the most recent horrific nightmare that I had to deal with was just last week. I will never go into details because I see no reason to depress the readers or cause them sleepless nights like I have to go through. Misery does not love company in this instance.
And don't get me started on the issue of birds in cages. The fact that Man sees nothing wrong with crippling an animal designed for flight and then putting them in a cage for Man's 'viewing pleasure'....well...I can't think of anything more selfish and inhumane than that. It is no different from crippling a human so that he can't walk and then locking them in a cage.
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