Tonka 2/28 Down to 0.1u, AMPS 99, +4 103, +6 72, +7 65

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jmalasiuk

jmalasiuk

Member Since 2014
Yesterday: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...ebound-pmps-94-3-61-4-50.133834/#post-1380164

Yesterday was a total mystery - still have no real idea whether it was his mornign or evening that was the fluke, or if he is just so carb sensitive that replacing a small amount of his food with the still relatively low carb Friskies pate was enough to kick him out of the normal range briefly

In any case, after last night's drop to 50 at +4 (on the Bravo meter, which tests roughly 10% higher than the other human meters I've used), I decided to give him just 0.1 unit. Any thoughts on this? Am I premature in this reduction? Or should I just give the 0.1 units and let time tell...
 
I don't give dosing advice but that does seem rather quick for another reduction without getting an actual under 50. I'll be curious to see what the wise ones say. Which Friskies did you use?
 
I would use a meter that I could take at face value, rather than thinking it might be higher/lower than other meters.

I think a few cycles will tell you whether or not taking the reduction in advance of him going under 50 will work or not. :) If he trends up, you call it a "failed reduction" and go right back up to 0.25u without delay. From the Tight Reg page:

  • If an attempted reduction fails, go right back up to the last good dose as soon as you see kitty's numbers trending upwards. You don't have to hold the reduced dose for a certain number of cycles before taking the dose right back up. The guidelines listed under the topic "Increasing the dose" do not apply to a failed reduction.

    Please use common sense in this situation. The "last good dose" is not the dose that just dropped kitty into the 20s or 30s. You want to resume momentum by finding a dose in-between the dose that dropped kitty too low and the reduced dose.
  • Since 2006 we've encouraged those practicing Tight Regulation to attempt reducing the dose from 0.25u to 0.1u before stopping insulin completely. During a two week OTJ trial, you want to see mostly green numbers (under 100) with only a few random blue numbers between 100 - 120 to help ensure a strong remission.

When I look at Tonka's ss . . . it brings a giant smile to my face. he looks great!:D Don't be in too much of a hurry to get him off of insulin, however. The longer you give him the insulin support he needs the better for his pancreas, and the better chance for a strong remission. While he is in green numbers, his pancreas has the opportunity to heal - and you want that.
 
tiffmaxee said:
I don't give dosing advice but that does seem rather quick for another reduction without getting an actual under 50. I'll be curious to see what the wise ones say. Which Friskies did you use?
Click to expand...
Friskies chicken pate. It's rated on the lists as apx 8% carb, although I'm in Canada and the amount could be something different here, if the Australian differences are anything to go by. The cat food nutrition calculator (http://scheyderweb.com/cats/catfood.html) calculates 14% dry matter carb for the cans that I have. I've been treating it like a lower-moderate carb food and using it when I want to push him up a touch.
 
julie & punkin (ga) said:
I would use a meter that I could take at face value, rather than thinking it might be higher/lower than other meters.

I think a few cycles will tell you whether or not taking the reduction in advance of him going under 50 will work or not. :) If he trends up, you call it a "failed reduction" and go right back up to 0.25u without delay. From the Tight Reg page:

  • If an attempted reduction fails, go right back up to the last good dose as soon as you see kitty's numbers trending upwards. You don't have to hold the reduced dose for a certain number of cycles before taking the dose right back up. The guidelines listed under the topic "Increasing the dose" do not apply to a failed reduction.

    Please use common sense in this situation. The "last good dose" is not the dose that just dropped kitty into the 20s or 30s. You want to resume momentum by finding a dose in-between the dose that dropped kitty too low and the reduced dose.
  • Since 2006 we've encouraged those practicing Tight Regulation to attempt reducing the dose from 0.25u to 0.1u before stopping insulin completely. During a two week OTJ trial, you want to see mostly green numbers (under 100) with only a few random blue numbers between 100 - 120 to help ensure a strong remission.

When I look at Tonka's ss . . . it brings a giant smile to my face. he looks great!:D Don't be in too much of a hurry to get him off of insulin, however. The longer you give him the insulin support he needs the better for his pancreas, and the better chance for a strong remission. While he is in green numbers, his pancreas has the opportunity to heal - and you want that.
Click to expand...

Ho much do they have to trend up by to consider it a failed reduction? Or is it just that he isn't continuously going down and therefore not at the same levels on a lower dose, so any increase would be enough to go back to 0.25?

It's not that I'm in so much a rush to get him off insulin (although it would be fantastic if that happened soon enough that he could get off and be nice and stable before I have to start heading into the field around mid to late April), as much as I don't want to risk him dropping too low since I'm usually out of the house for 12 hours at a time during the week, and based on last night, cannot be trusted to wake up to my alarms when I'm exhausted :( (I'd intended to test him again at +5 last night, but passed out and didn't wake up to my alarm until +6). I'm a bit of a chicken in that. Which is why he so rarely drops below 50 - I tend to feed him as soon as he gets to that level. At least when I'm home/awake. In any case, I do appreciate that keeping him on insulin longer will be better in the long run. Just trying to figure out what the best dose for that will be. Maybe if I go back to 0.25 tonight, but stick to 0.25 proper (he's been on ra "fat" 0.25 the last few days, that would be better.

It's +5 right now and he's up to 103 (had to head out this morning so I didn't get an earlier test in the cycle), but his nadir could be before or later than this. He doesn't seem to have one favorite time.
 
We don't have an exact definition of what it means to "trend up." But personally, I don't see that yet, according to the definition in my head! LOL.
 
jmalasiuk said:
Friskies chicken pate. It's rated on the lists as apx 8% carb, although I'm in Canada and the amount could be something different here, if the Australian differences are anything to go by. The cat food nutrition calculator (http://scheyderweb.com/cats/catfood.html) calculates 14% dry matter carb for the cans that I have. I've been treating it like a lower-moderate carb food and using it when I want to push him up a touch.
Click to expand...

Of course, that said, I honestly don;'t know if I'm using that calculator properly or not. I generally only use it when I can't find a food on one of the cat food lists that are listed on the Board. This calculator lists both wet and dry matter carb percentage, and says that the dry is a more accurate measure of carb content being recieved.
The wet for Friskies is only 3% (dry carb count is 14%). As a comparison, that calculator measures Fancy Feast Turkey and Giblets pate (which has no grain or starchy vegetables, etc. in it) at 1.5% wet carb and 7% dry carb percentage.

Now that I've got the calculator out and am doing comparisons, the Friskies might actually have less carbs than the Purina DM pate that I've been feeding him as his usual food (rated at 3% on one list, 8% on another). Looking at it on the calculator, DM calculates at 4% wet and 18% dry carb count. So... rebound yesterday?
 
At +6 he's back down to a nice 72. He did eat some more of his food an hour or so ago. So this is either a later than usual (for him) nadir, or his pancreas really is sputtering and putting out a bit of insulin in response to his snack. Given that he likes to climb a bit in between, his pancreas doesn't look ready to do things on its own just yet, but maybe getting closer, yes? Hopefully I won't have to feed him regimented meals throughout the day to ensure that he stays in normal numbers to have a successful remission. With my work-nonlife lack-of-balance this year, that's not going to be much easier to control than dosing him with insulin has been. As a free feeding cat, though, he seems to be taking care of that himself (he like s to eat around mid-cycle, and usually finishes everything else off around +10 or so). Just not as evenly timed as others' feedings.
 
You might want to consider getting an auto feeder and seeing if it'll work for Tonka...the Petsafe 5 is a popular one around here

That way you could let him have the more "regimented" meals that tend to keep him in better numbers when you aren't around to feed
 
I had an autofeeder - one very similar to the Petsafe 5, from the looks of them. Teeger used to use it quite happily when he was the only cat in the house. I hauled it out a few weeks ago to see how better spaced meals would work with Tonka and he broke it on the first day trying to get into the other food compartments (he can be very destructive in his determination to get things open - we went through about 6 different water fountains before I found one that he couldn't topple the top off of).

I'll look into a replacement if it starts looking like he can only stay regulated with regular feedings through the day, but I'm not holding my breath for their ability to withstand said cat's determined streak :)
 
Vyktor free fed before during and after remission (nearly three years now :)) He tends to graze throughout day and night so no problems there
 
Here's hoping the same will go for Tonks when he gets to that point. Otherwise I'll be spending a fortune replacing broken autofeeders every three days :rolleyes:
 
Wow, Tonka must be one very determined cat to figure out how to break into the Petsafe. We have three of them, and none of our five cats have managed to break into them (yet)(anti-jinx). While the reduction to 0.1 might have been technically premature, since you fed gravy to avoid Tonka dipping below 50, he may very well have earned that reduction fair and square anyway. Fingers crossed that he holds the reduction! Looks good so far today! :D

With as good as Tonka looks, I'd say after a handful of cycles, if you start seeing more blues and less greens, and it looks like he's not holding normal numbers, I'd call that a failed reduction. It's not always easy to tell exactly when there's a "trend up" but you kind of know it when you see it? LOL!
 
Thanks - that'll give me something to look for. Of course I'll be back at work by the time he starts trending up, if he's going to do so. Back to late night testing for the mid-cycles, I guess. Oh well.

To be fair, he never did get into the feeder. He just broke it trying. The electronic components are nice and simple, but even those can only take so much banging around before they give up the ghost, apparently.
 
Punkin had acromegaly which causes extreme hunger. He never broke into our timed feeder, the Petsafe 5 compartment that Chris mentioned.

If a cat will graze, you can just leave food available. If not, it might be worth the convenience to try the timed feeder.

I found the complaints on amazon were solved by making certain the feeding tray was fully seated in the base. If it's fully seated it always worked for us.
 
We never had a problem with the Cat Mate (the 5 serving feeder that I have that strongly resembles the Petsafe 5) opening, etc. Tonka just banged it around so much trying to get into it that one of the connections in the electronics must have gotten disconnected. He likes to bang things around alot. :rolleyes: If his grazing doesn't seem to keep him where he should be, I'll look into a replacement (assuming that I can't fix it - I haven't pulled it apart yet). Maybe a newer one will survive demolition-cat a bit better.
 
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