Today's curve (our first)

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millerb

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Hi all. Today was our first blood glucose curve at home. I have been checking Skipper's BG every two hours using the Relion Confirm meter. Here's the results so far:
5 am (pre-breakfast and pre-Prozinc injection): Hi (600+)
7:02 a.m. Hi (600+)
9:07 a.m. Hi (600+)
11:17 a.m. 420
1:16 p.m. 369
3:06 p.m. 342
5:04 p.m. (pre-dinner and pre-Prozinc injection) 438
7:07 p.m. 431

Is this crazy? We go back to the specialist Monday to go over the curve results and to determine whether to change to Lantus. I'm fairly new at this, so I'm not sure what to think.

Thanks for any help!
 
I would encourage you to stick with one insulin for a while to give it a chance to work. Skipper's body is going to go through a hormonal change as the drug is introduced, and it won't respond and fall into the desired pattern immediately. You're already seeing a significant drop ~250 points from his pretest shots (AMPS and PMPS), which is good.

It would be helpful if you'd post on the "Insulin Support Group" "PZI" (Prozinc) board so that you can benefit from the experience of the folks that are successfully using it.

There are lots of things that can affect your Skipper's BG levels. I changed from dry food to low-carb wet (Fancy Feast Classics) before I started the insulin - the food change can sometimes effect as much as a 100 point reduction in their BG.

Your numbers are starting out high. As a proactive effort, I will say it's IMPERATIVE that you test for ketones in his urine. You can get a bottle of test strips at Walmart for about $6, Walgreens for $10. You just hold the stick under the stream of urine, or collect it while they're going and dip the test strip in it. With the high BG levels, minimal insulin, and in some cases any kind of infection... your little buddy could be headed to the danger zone of DKA. I've had a recent scare, so I'm testing at least 3 times a day as a means to avoid the serious/sometimes fatal DKA and the expense of treating it.

There's a LOT to digest here, and as time permits, I would encourage you to get through some of the posts at the top of the health section. Good luck and I'll look for you on PZI.

Lu-Ann
 
millerb said:
Hi all. Today was our first blood glucose curve at home. I have been checking Skipper's BG every two hours using the Relion Confirm meter. Here's the results so far:
5 am (pre-breakfast and pre-Prozinc injection): Hi (600+)
7:02 a.m. Hi (600+)
9:07 a.m. Hi (600+)
11:17 a.m. 420
1:16 p.m. 369
3:06 p.m. 342
5:04 p.m. (pre-dinner and pre-Prozinc injection) 438
7:07 p.m. 431

Is this crazy? We go back to the specialist Monday to go over the curve results and to determine whether to change to Lantus. I'm fairly new at this, so I'm not sure what to think.

Thanks for any help!

what dose of prozinc are you giving? Whatever it is, it's not making much of a dent in the numbers. For sure, you need to pick up some KETOSTIX at the pharmacy and test urine every day for ketones.

How long have you been using prozinc, and have you seen any improvements in your cat?

ETA: I just looked back and see that you have given this insulin a chance as you started giving insulin end of last year?
I know that dry food would make difference but just giving more insulin should be sufficient to balance the high carbs of the dry food.
Maybe it is time to give Lantus a try, and if you do decide to switch insulins, I think I would suggest you try Levemir as more and more people are switching to Lev and getting very good improvements.
 
Thanks for the insight. Skipper gets 5.5 units of ProZinc twice a day. We started with 1 unit in mid December, and he kept losing weight (1/2 lb. a week) so my vet kept increasing it while we ran every test available looking for cancer, FIV, Feline leuk, etc. His blood sugar levels have never improved, so our regular vet sent us to see an internal medicine specialist. We had our initial visit last Monday and go back for a follow-up today.

I have been testing for ketones every day or every other day since early December. He did go into ketoacidosis in mid-January and spent 3 days in the intensive care unit at the specialty hospital. He has not had any ketones since then. The sticks I have test for both ketones and glucose. His urine glucose is always at the highest reading.

I can't put him on a low-carb/high protein diet because of his kidney disease, but I'm trying to find a balance between carbs and protein that won't exacerbate either the diabetes or the kidney disease. He's super picky about wet foods, and I've only found one he will eat (Wellness CORE salmon, herring and whitefish -- grain free). I have to be careful with wet foods, also, because my other cat is allergic to chicken, and she often cleans up what Skipper leaves, and if there is any chicken in it, she will vomit. Skipper is allergic to beef, so that doesn't leave a ton of options.

I will check out the ProZinc forum if the specialist decides today to keep us on it for a while. If we switch to Lantus, I'm sure I'll have more questions.

Thanks!
 
Have you checked out felinecrf.org? That site is an astounding resource for kidney disease, and can help you balance wet food and kidney problems.
 
I really think that the kidney diet is causing the higher numbers. We've had quite a few people come to the boards who couldn't regulate their cats on the prescription kidney diet, and once the diet was changed to a food that was good for both kidney disease and diabetes, there were huge improvements. One cat even went into remission right away. Unless you're in a very late stage of CKD, the low protein diet is going to cause more problems than it helps (e.g. muscle wasting), and the diabetes is the more threatening condition.

Here's a great site that explains the different stages of CKD (the newer term for CRF): http://www.felinecrf.org/how_bad_is_it.htm Most cats have some loss of kidney function as they age--the good news is that the progression of kidney disease can be stalled with the right diet. My Gabby was diagnosed with borderline stage1/stage 2 kidney disease, and in the 2 1/2 years I had left with her her kidney values did not change at ALL with the kidney-friendly diet I had her on. She passed away from cancer, completely unrelated to the kidney disease. If it weren't for the cancer, I would have had more years left with her.

You simply need a low carb, low phosphorus canned food, preferably without byproducts (higher quality protein sources are easier on the kidneys). Keeping your cat as hydrated as possible is key to managing the disease, along with low phosphorus foods. Mixing water in with the canned food is one good way to help with hydration.

Here's an updated food list with the values for several premium foods: https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B8...MzhkYTkxOGM4NThk&sort=name&layout=list&num=50. You're looking for something with less than 10% carbs and less than 250 mg/kcal of phosphorus. The foods I would suggest are Merrick's Before Grain Turkey, Wellness Turkey, EVO 95% Chicken & Turkey, and Blue Wilderness Duck. If cost is a problem, EVO and Wellness both sell their foods in large cans, which makes the price comparable to grocery store brands of food. Because higher quality protein means less protein metabolism residue, you really want to try for the human-grade meat if you can.

If those are out of your price range, the next best thing to feed are the low carb Friskie's Special Diet flavors. These are Turkey & Giblets and Salmon Dinner--make sure they are the ones that say "special diet" on the can, though. PetSmart carries them, and some grocery stores. Here is an updated list of just the phosphorus values for many commercial foods. They can be cross referenced with Binky's chart for carb values if there's something on there that you want to feed. On this chart, you're looking for something that is less than 1% phosphorus (these values are on a dry matter basis, not mg/kcal): http://www.felinecrf.org/canned_food_usa.htm

Changing the diet does require that Skipper no longer has access to dry food. Here are some great tips for cats that are resisting the transition: http://catinfo.org/#Transitioning_Dry_Food_Addicts_to_Canned_Food_. Don't give up! It can take some time and many different foods and tricks in order to finally get him on a canned diet. If you do end up getting a food with chicken in it, you may just have to feed the cats in separate rooms, or pull up Skippers food as soon as he's done eating. I had one cat with kidney disease, and another that was diabetic, and they ate different foods. Gabby was a light eater and Bandit a gobbler, so I just stayed in the kitchen until she was done eating, and then I picked up the rest of her food and gave it to her in another hr or so. If you feed small portions, usually they finish all in one setting.

As always, remember that if you are changing the diet BG could lower drastically and if you're not testing frequently and lowering the dose you could have a dangerous hypoglycemic incident on your hands. 5.5u is a very high dose of insulin, and once the carbs are removed Skipper will most likely not need that much insulin.
 
Re: Today's curve (our first) - Updated

Thank you so much for the insight, Julia and Bandit! I have actually tried all of the EVO foods, and they make both of my cats vomit. My other cat is allergic to chicken and can't really handle turkey either. They both vomited the duck, rabbit and venison. That's why I've tried to stay with the fish-based canned foods. So far the two they can both stomach are the Blue Wilderness Salmon and the Wellness CORE salmon, herring and whitefish. That's it. Really. I've tried every brand out there that doesn't have chicken (or beef, since Skipper is allergic), and believe me, there aren't too many canned foods without chicken or chicken byproducts.

I will take some time to look at all of the websites you referenced.

We had our follow up visit with the internal medicine specialist yesterday and it went well. We are going to switch to glargine insulin as soon as I can get it, and start at 3 units twice a day. I told her that I would continue to measure his BG at home, so they gave me some guidelines on how to alter insulin if necessary. Skipper gained 2 oz. in the week's time, so he's now up to 9 lbs 7 oz. Another 1.5 lbs and he'll be back at normal weight. I'm also to weigh him at home and call in once a week with his weight and BG numbers. We go back in 4 weeks.

I talked to her a little about food, and her philosophy is that we just need to get him to eat because his weight is so low. But I'm with you all that diet can play a huge role in managing his CKD and diabetes. So I will continue to try to transition him to wet food. But here's a question: I have always given him both wet and dry because he's a grazer. He eats the wet food when I first give it to him, then nibbles on the dry throughout the day and night. The vet said this was fine because it would keep his blood sugar more steady. I work full time, so I'm not around during the day to give him more wet food. Any ideas?
 
Lots of us use automatic feeders and freeze wet food to allow day and night grazing. I love my PetSafe5 - hard to break into, easy to program. I freeze the wet food in a silicone cupcake pan (FF can fits perfectly), then plop it out and keep the pucks in a baggie in the freezer. I can leave it in the feeder for several hours and it is ready to eat when the feeder opens. Others leave the frozen out to thaw, but my cats have had a habit of dragging the frozen puck around the house to hasten thawing. :mrgreen:

Hope Lantus works for you. Be sure to check out the stickies on the Lantus forum. Lots of good info there: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewforum.php?f=9
 
Most of what I would say is already said above so no need to repeat it.... :-D My concern with the last update is beginning on 3 units of Lantus...to me, that is too high of a starting dose. Lantus works differently so starting with that high of a dose would definitely NOT be my preference. The max I would start is 2 units and even that may cause you to bypass his 'real' dose. When Lantus is injected, it immediately sort of hardens under the skin then precipitates into the bloodstream as the body's ph changes. It will take a few days for it to begin working on those high numbers (5-7 days) so you won't be seeing immediate results BUT when it does start, I would hate for it to be too much already.

I'm SO glad you're already home testing!!! THAT is a HUGE key to keeping your baby safe!

BIG HUG,
 
3u is way too high a starting dose for Lantus. Please do not start that high. Here's a link to the AAHA guidelines: https://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/AAHADiabetesGuidelines.pdf. See p. 4 (218).

The starting dose for Lantus should be .25u per KG of ideal body weight. So that means if you have an overweight cat who is 15 lbs, and they should weight 11 lbs, you convert 11 lbs to 4.98 kg, and then dose .25u x 4.98=1.2, and we would round that down to 1u. The starting dose for an average sized cat is going to be 1u, which is usually the recommended starting dose.

I'm gone for 12 hrs during the day, so I also freeze food and put it in auto feeders when I am not home. The dry food is going to keep BG high and keep you from regulating your cat. I would urge you to check out the dosing recommendations for Lantus in the TR forum: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1581. When Lantus is dosed according to that dosing protocol with the combination of a low carb canned diet (under 10% at all times) and home testing, newly diagnosed cats have an 84% chance of going in remission.

Look over the food charts I supplied--there has to be something that is kidney friendly for you to feed. You might just have to feed him a different food, like Wellness Turkey, and not give that food to your other cat that doesn't handle turkey well. When you tried the Nature's variety instinct foods, did you introduce it slowly or all at once? Vomiting or diarrhea can happen when a new food is introduced, but it should go away within 10 days of the new food. One way to help prevent the vomiting is to give a probiotic like fortiflora while you are transitioning to the new food: http://www.amazon.com/Purina-FortiF...YL22/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1331737221&sr=8-3
 
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