To shoot or not ?

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Lynn & Rupert

Member Since 2015
Good morning, Rupert's dosage was upped yesterday, did well, but seemed off this morning. I quick did a blood test and he was at 159 (whew), but I panicked and gave him some food. He threw that up, maybe I gave him a little too much. I read that I should have not fed him and waited 20 and check BG again. So wondering, what should I do now? It has been about 1/2 hr since last test and feeding. His BG is now 260. Safe to shoot with increased dosage? Numbers sure seemed to get higher quickly, because of the food ?
 
Good morning, Rupert's dosage was upped yesterday, did well, but seemed off this morning. I quick did a blood test and he was at 159 (whew), but I panicked and gave him some food. He threw that up, maybe I gave him a little too much. I read that I should have not fed him and waited 20 and check BG again. So wondering, what should I do now? It has been about 1/2 hr since last test and feeding. His BG is now 260. Safe to shoot with increased dosage? Numbers sure seemed to get higher quickly, because of the food ?
I see that you've shot at a reduced dose this morning - am glad you did shoot, and when in doubt & you can't reach somebody, is always good to err on the side of caution (although I think you would have been fine to shoot the 1.75, even though an hr. later than usual). If you see a higher PMPS, not to worry - just shoot the usual dose tonight. Regarding that 159 you got this morning - I've run into this a lot with Bat-Bat (too-low number @ shot time). What I do is wait 15 min. (NO food) & retest. I've had to do that 3 to 4 times in a row before her BG rises enough to finally feed & shoot. (Yeah, sometimes it messes with your schedule.:rolleyes:) Can take a few cycles before kitty settles into a new dose.
 
Thanks for the great advice Robin, sorry I didn't respond sooner, had a phone call from a long winded person! lol I will know next time to NOT feed, wait and restest in 15 mins. Having a sugarcat sure is a lesson in patience!
 
Having a sugarcat sure is a lesson in patience!


I've got some pants to help you with that ...


stella-christine-trousers-wild-cat-cream_3.jpg



;)
 
(... wasn't me! :oops::oops::oops:)
.
NOOOOOOOOOO, it wasn't you Critter Mom or Robin! I wish! It would have been a lot more enjoyable I am sure! Those dang pants, I need a size XXL, cause I am not known for my patience. :rolleyes: You might be right Robin, it is teaching me a few lessons also. It is getting closer to his shot time, he is at 358 (ugh), I normally would give him his shot in about 1/2 hr, but wondering if I should wait longer because of the late AMPS, also was thinking maybe 1.6U ?????
 
Well, here I go again, not patient enough, should have checked my replies from earlier. Sue suggested if the numbers were high (as she predicted) to go ahead and shoot at regular time, which would be a less then 12 hrs. I think I will try 1.6U tonight, I am getting low on test stripes and don't want him going to low tonight. I am heading to the Walmart first thing tomorrow, I see I should always have an extra bottle handy for emergencies. Thanks again all you wonderful peeps, you really helped me today! :bighug:
 
Well, here I go again, not patient enough, should have checked my replies from earlier. Sue suggested if the numbers were high (as she predicted) to go ahead and shoot at regular time, which would be a less then 12 hrs. I think I will try 1.6U tonight, I am getting low on test stripes and don't want him going to low tonight. I am heading to the Walmart first thing tomorrow, I see I should always have an extra bottle handy for emergencies. Thanks again all you wonderful peeps, you really helped me today! :bighug:
Sorry, only just now saw this ... yes, is always better to err on the side of caution; I think you'll be ok with that lower 1.6U. (But you're not totally out of strips tonight, right?)
 
Sorry, only just now saw this ... yes, is always better to err on the side of caution; I think you'll be ok with that lower 1.6U. (But you're not totally out of strips tonight, right?)
No, I have enough for more tests tonight and in the morning, just low. Going to make sure I buy 2 tomorrow, would be a disaster to run out in an emergency!
 
I am having trouble knowing when to feed and not to feed! I have read a lot of different opinions on it, but I am mainly concerned with how soon before testing can I feed on ProZinc. Or does it matter ? I don't feed 30 mins prior to testing, but have read it should be 2 hrs. That would be hard to do, since Rupert likes to eat many mini meals a day. Just like Merlin! I tried feeding twice a day, but he threw up everything, so I went back to the mini feedings. Are there any hard and fast rules on feeding as to times before testing, or is each cat different? I am a bit confused on this issue. :confused:
 
You don't want to feed 2-3 hrs. right before pre-shot test time because the food will have already increased your kitty's glucose level. The reason you want to do test BG/THEN feed & shoot is so that you are dosing based on an accurate BG level. Does that make sense?
 
You also don't want to wait too long after that AMPS/ PMPS feeding to give the insulin; that's why some people even give the injection as their cat is finishing up at the bowl (esp. if it's easier to give the injection when that kitty is busy focusing on chowing down;)). Optimally, you want to give the injection within/ 15-20 minutes after the feeding.
 
You don't want to feed 2-3 hrs. right before pre-shot test time because the food will have already increased your kitty's glucose level. The reason you want to do test BG/THEN feed & shoot is so that you are dosing based on an accurate BG level. Does that make sense?
Yes that makes sense and what I was thinking might be why Rupert's BG are high ???
 
I do feed him while injecting, keeps him occupied. :) I will check out the timed feeders, not sure it will work with 3 other kitties, esp the female, she is Miss Piggy and not sure the other cats will get their share! Thank you all for clarifying this up for me, I had notes, but they conflicted! I waited this morning, no feeding before AMPS, he was at 375, gave a 1.6U last night and again today. I am going to be away for part of the day so didn't want to do the larger 1.75 dose till tomorrow. Another question, hope you all have your patience pants on, lol ....I understand the conversion chart from U40 to U100, but confused about the numbers...they are done in 2 increments....1.6 ..1.8 so how do I get an accurate 1.75? Couldn't I just go with 1.8 or is that too high? I do use a magnifying glass, but still it would be hard.
 
Yes that makes sense and what I was thinking might be why Rupert's BG are high ???
Before I try to troubleshoot this, please tell me:
1) What does Rupert weigh now --- and what should he weigh?
2) If you total up the food in all his mini-meals per day, what is the total amount he gets in a 24-hr period?
 
1. He weighs 9 lbs 2 oz, he was at 10 lbs before diabetes. He is a lean sort of cat, never been fat.
2. he eats 2 1/2 cans of 3 0z FF up to 3 of the 3 oz cans a day and a few low carb snacks *seems like he is always hungry
 
A cat feeder like the PetSafe5 will let you close it up 2 hours before your am and pm pretests. So he can still graze but you avoid the 2 hour window.
@Sue and Oliver (GA) I don't have a multi-cat household myself, so am trying to wrap my head around the difficulties faced by those who have a diabetic in the mix of cats at home ... so another question I would pose in this situation is: If someone is using timed feeders for cats and, say, is not at home to supervise when they are all eating - and the diabetic kitty is not cloistered from the others at mealtime - how can that person really know whether the diabetic kitty is either (a) eating more than his share or (b) not getting his correct share? (Yikes. Must be hard.)
 
1. He weighs 9 lbs 2 oz, he was at 10 lbs before diabetes. He is a lean sort of cat, never been fat.
2. he eats 2 1/2 cans of 3 0z FF up to 3 of the 3 oz cans a day and a few low carb snacks *seems like he is always hungry
Of course he's always hungry, as his diabetes is not yet controlled. (My cat weighs 11 lbs., gets total of 2-1/4 cans of FF per day (NO snacks) and maintains her weight consistently at that amount of food. Would she like to eat more? You bet'cha! Sometimes it is helpful to think of food as either "medicine" or "anti-medicine," depending on whether he is eating effectively, or over-eating. ;):D)
 
It is hard! I have to separate them, some eat very slow and others like Rupert and Spooky scarf theirs down and try to eat the other's food. It's like playing musical kitties around here! lol
 
It is hard! I have to separate them, some eat very slow and others like Rupert and Spooky scarf theirs down and try to eat the other's food. It's like playing musical kitties around here! lol
So now the root of your conundrum is coming into focus ... how do you not lose your mind???:eek:
 
Lol, Robin, so true! Rupert was always very vocal about his food, he is even more so now! I think I need to get a pair of ear plugs. It's like "Little Shop Of Horror's " around here lately....FEED ME, FEED ME! :arghh:
 
Lol, Robin, so true! Rupert was always very vocal about his food, he is even more so now! I think I need to get a pair of ear plugs. It's like "Little Shop Of Horror's " around here lately....FEED ME, FEED ME! :arghh:
I understand this totally. (Bat-Bat was a grazer; is not now. It was hard to make that change.)
Ok, let's try to work the problem: First - Are you home-based for work? Retired? Gone for work 5 days/week like many people are?
 
@Sue and Oliver (GA) I don't have a multi-cat household myself, so am trying to wrap my head around the difficulties faced by those who have a diabetic in the mix of cats at home ... so another question I would pose in this situation is: If someone is using timed feeders for cats and, say, is not at home to supervise when they are all eating - and the diabetic kitty is not cloistered from the others at mealtime - how can that person really know whether the diabetic kitty is either (a) eating more than his share or (b) not getting his correct share? (Yikes. Must be hard.)
Much harder with multiple. The only thing that a feeder makes sure of is that no one (including your diabetic) eats closer than 2 hours after food. Before the 2 hour window I guess everyone could graze as usual. For 1.75, you could go back to U40s but I think that would mix me up. I think I'd just do 1.8 (tiny difference)
 
I am home based for work (tg), but it is only me and the kitties, so sometimes I have to be gone. I will do the 1.8U much easier for me to see that! I can't think y'all enough, I about got this, just needed some clarification on questions I have now. Big hugs to you all! :bighug: I felt so overwhelmed at first, my vet was sort of "bleh" and I don't have the money to take Rupie there all the time anyway, so tg for this forum and the kind, informed peeps here! :bighug:
 
I will just have to watch the clock and play musical kitties for now. Was also thinking about some EVO dry food for back up when I have to be gone. All my cats were used to grazing, like most on dry kibble (curse that dry kibble :mad:) so they are all having to adjust to new feeding routine. Not sure in other multi cat households, but the slow eaters that I separate, always seem to think the others are getting something better and want to come in where they think all the good stuff is being fed! :banghead:
 
I am off to Walmart for more supplies, enjoy your coffee Robin! Thanks ladies!
If you get back from Walmart & notice I haven't posted, it's because my wifi connection is all wonky this morning ...
(Thank you so much, Century Link ISP - you stink in AZ. :banghead::banghead::banghead:)
So will collect my thoughts re: your feeding dilemma on paper offline, & try to post later. Sorry 'bout that!
 
I tried feeding twice a day, but he threw up everything...

If it was white foamy stuff or maybe yellowy-brown watery stuff that could be caused by excess build-up of stomach acid. Saoirse suffered similarly when the diagnosing vet insisted she only be fed twice a day. I stopped it after the second time she vomited. Vet or no vet, I was not going to cause my cat further distress. I wasn't prepared to force my cat to the protocol. I believe in tailoring the protocol to the cat.

When you're next getting labs, Lynn, maybe ask your vet to do a pancreatitis test and check his kidney values (purely as a precaution). No labs are wasted since it is valuable to have baselines for future reference. :)

... I went back to the mini feedings. Are there any hard and fast rules on feeding as to times before testing, or is each cat different?

Good move on switching back to mini meals. I'm sure Rupert's tummy thanks you for this. :)

Every cat is different. Some cats may get on with two meals a day, but if a cat can't cope with that smaller meals / grazing are the way to go. As discussed above you do need to work the food with the insulin type you are using - front-loading carbs for the cycle when using in-out insulins, especially the harsher ones - and your own cat's pattern.

When running curves, I used to try to encompass a food trial into the test sequence, e.g. for when Saoirse was on Lantus:

AMPS then feed.
+2 test (onset check - especially at low numbers, or when on harsher insulins).
+3 test, then feed (checking for early nadir).
+4 test 1hr postprandial (check for how much BG may be elevated by food).
+5 test 2hrs postprandial (testing to see how well BG levels are recovering after meal).
+6 then feed
+9 then feed
PMPS

You can vary your test strategy depending on what you want to find out. I was always concerned about how low a dose might take Saoirse if her appetite disappeared in the middle of a cycle. She tended to metabolize insulin fast and therefore tended to produce early nadirs. When she was on Caninsulin I would monitor her clinical signs in the first few hours after injection - very closely after onset - and provided it was safe to do so I'd withhold her next meal till after a +3 test to see how low the dose was taking her for the current cycle. I'd typically test at +7 to make sure the dose was wearing off. (Couldn't even attempt to rest until she was past PM+7 - I was always petrified of waking up in the morning to find the worst had happened.)

Doing little 'food trial' tests at different times in the cycle on different days (same dose, obviously) can point you to the best times to feed mini meals without spiking the BG too much. Gradually you'll learn your cat's typical pattern (e.g. high during day, lower during night or vice versa) and develop a schedule that works for you both. Once the pattern is established, spot checks and some routine curves should be adequate for general BG monitoring.



Mogs
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Hi, Lynn - Finally have my internet back. While I waited, I did a lot of thinking & wrote you "a tome." (Fair warning of the lengthy post to come.:eek:)
So here goes ...

Re: Your multi-cat household - You're in a tough spot, feeding-wise; I feel for you. You have 1 diabetic kitty + 3 non-diabetic, all of whom are accustomed to grazing (which how I used to feed Bat-Bat, pre-diabetes; most people feed pets this way).

I suspect that much of Rupert's problem (glucose #s not coming down) is likely food-related. There are two parts to this:

1) Multi-cat household with 2 fast eaters (one is Rupert), 2 slow eaters.
2)From what I see in Rupert's chart to date, except for the night of 7/18, it's very hard for you to determine where his nadirs might be, on-insulin, most likely due to (quoting you) "many mini-meals." (Plus snacks. And possibly also due to Rupert scarfing a little of the slower-eaters' food unless you are watching like a hawk the entire time they're all eating - which is almost impossible to do ALL of the time ...) Because every time he eats, his blood sugar will rise - so how do you uncover nadir with a cycle full of mini-meals?

The solution that follows will likely not be very popular :blackeye: to most anybody, especially anyone in a multi-cat household. (How do you all manage it?)
But it’s the best I can come up with, and is offered sincerely --- & with sympathy for the difficulties of feeding when you have multiple cats.

The way I can see it might happen for Rupert is ... all 4 of your cats transition (can’t be done overnight!) to a “non-grazing” feeding schedule (preferably twice-a-day meals, if at all possible) - at least for now & especially because the current feeding schedule of all the cats is keeping you from getting Rupert’s diabetes well-controlled.

This would mean you have to take a hard line, toughen up & be the “alpha cat-mom” to your pride o’ kitties.

Keep this in mind: :cat:In the wild, cats will characteristically eat a BIG meal, then not eat for an entire day! Our “domesticated” cats have learned to become grazers because we humans turn them into grazers - they would not normally eat this way otherwise. (Remember, I’d done that myself to Bat-Bat - which is how she ballooned up to 18 pounds before the diabetes hit her & whittled her down to skinny by the time she was first diagnosed.) So once we’ve turned them into grazers, it’s only natural for them to heartily pitch a fit (read: buy lots of earplugs) until we transition them out of that not-so-helpful habit of grazing throughout the day.

It’s hard. You have to stand firm while all those adorable kitty-faces whine & pout & cry & yowl pitifully to try to convince you that they are just STARVING. (Some may even go as far as to pull a little “hunger strike” - not unlike a bratty 4-year-old who threatens, “I’ll hold my breath until I TURN BLUE!!!” Ha, my daughter tried that once, and found she didn’t win the game. No, it wasn't about food.;))

Guess what? Your kitties won’t actually starve. (Ask Bat-Bat, who for a while sounded like an entire Mormon Tabernacle Choir of kitties as we were making the transition to twice a day feedings. She was a master terrorist:nailbiting:, but I didn’t give in.)
She’s still alive & well today. :cat:

Will they like it? H*ll, no! (Why no "furious kitty" emoticon to insert here?) But here’s the deal: You have a sick kitty on your hands. Changing his feeding schedule won’t kill him ... but uncontrolled diabetes can.

How might you manage it?

Well ... it’s you who will have to decide how quickly you can best transition from multi-meals to fewer meals. If they’ve been eating, say, 5 times a day, maybe shift it to 4 times for a few days, then 3 for a few days, then 2. (And no snacks in between.) But here’s the foundation to help you get Rupert’s #’s to come down & stay down:

1) Rupert eats in a room BY HIMSELF closed off from the other 3 at mealtimes. He get the correct amount of food for his optimum weight and no more than that (unless you’re dealing with hypo event, of course).
2) AND the 2 slow-eaters stay in another closed room until they finish their respective meals. (Give them a reasonable time limit, hen pick up the food if they’ve not finished. And don’t give it back: they just have to wait until the next mealtime to eat again. Believe me, those two will learn to quit dawdling.)
3) The other fast-eating cat can eat wherever he wants, so long as he's not with Rupert while eating.

What to do about the large meal/ scarf & barf problem? (Yep, we went through that messy bit, too!)

1) As you’re transitioning, the AMPS/PMPS meals gets gradually larger, and any other meals in between get gradually smaller.
2) If you can make it down to 2 (large) meals/day, add water to the food (slows them down) AND pick up the plate for a short “food rest” halfway through the meal. (Essential for Rupert, maybe not so much for the others ... unless you actually get a kick out of cleaning up cat-barf. I am now an expert cat-barf cleaner-upper.:p)

You will find, over time, that without so many meals/ snacks throughout the day, Rupert will (generally) be ready to eat, pre-shot. And perhaps if you can get all cats in your house on board, your life will feel saner/less stressful, given that you’re now actively treating a diabetic.

Will you run into an occasional snag? Sure! Bat-Bat recently barfed her ENTIRE meal, right after one of her “as needed” insulin shots. (:arghh:Panic time!) So first, I reminded myself to breathe. I waited 15 minutes & fed her 1/3 of the usual ration. (TG, it stayed there.) Then 10 minutes later, fed the 2nd 1/3; and in 10 more min. fed the final 1/3. It all stayed down. Checked her BG - it was going up. Checked again at nadir-time to reassure myself. All was ok; crisis averted.

Once you have made the transition & are able to get a clearer picture of when Rupert nadirs, things get a lot easier. A couple examples: If he drops too low @ nadir, you give a little higher-carb something & test in 15 min. to make sure that # is rising; if his nadir # is too high after a few cycles at the same dose, you’ll likely need to bump up the dose.

I did not start giving Bat-Bat mini-meals until her pre-shot numbers were starting to average around 150 (or less) at a micro-dose of ProZinc. (She eats at around 6:45 am, 11 am, 6:45 pm and 10:30 pm., with the AMPS/PMPS meals being slightly larger than the other two.) If she actually makes it into remission, I will likely transition her - gradually - to 3 meals/day, then 2 meals/day, because I’d like to have my life back one of these days:rolleyes:.

It isn’t an easy task to accomplish, I know: This type of plan may not be workable for you at all (maybe you can only get down to 3 meals/day, for example). And when there are other health complications, too - like pancreatitis, CKD, etc. - you must do what works best to treat all of those conditions simultaneously.

Barring such complications, while I realize that every diabetic cat is different, diabetes is always the same for every cat: :(It sickens. It emaciates. It weakens. And it can kill.

So do your best; discover what works for you and your kitty. (Take what you need from the above, and leave the rest.):)
I will leave you today with the little line that is in a frame above my desk:
The greatest pleasure in life is doing what others say can’t be done.:bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
If you get back from Walmart & notice I haven't posted, it's because my wifi connection is all wonky this morning ...
(Thank you so much, Century Link ISP - you stink in AZ. :banghead::banghead::banghead:)
So will collect my thoughts re: your feeding dilemma on paper offline, & try to post later. Sorry 'bout that!
No worries Robin, I had to leave and get test strips! So appreciate your time and effort!
 
While the big cats may eat a big meal and fast in between, I believe the smaller cats, which eat small rodents, birds, and some insects, have a more intermittent, feeding style than that.
I always let mine graze. There was an amount out that was generally finished up by +10.
 
Hi, Lynn - Finally have my internet back. While I waited, I did a lot of thinking & wrote you "a tome." (Fair warning of the lengthy post to come.:eek:)
So here goes ...

Re: Your multi-cat household - You're in a tough spot, feeding-wise; I feel for you. You have 1 diabetic kitty + 3 non-diabetic, all of whom are accustomed to grazing (which how I used to feed Bat-Bat, pre-diabetes; most people feed pets this way).

I suspect that much of Rupert's problem (glucose #s not coming down) is likely food-related. There are two parts to this:

1) Multi-cat household with 2 fast eaters (one is Rupert), 2 slow eaters.
2)From what I see in Rupert's chart to date, except for the night of 7/18, it's very hard for you to determine where his nadirs might be, on-insulin, most likely due to (quoting you) "many mini-meals." (Plus snacks. And possibly also due to Rupert scarfing a little of the slower-eaters' food unless you are watching like a hawk the entire time they're all eating - which is almost impossible to do ALL of the time ...) Because every time he eats, his blood sugar will rise - so how do you uncover nadir with a cycle full of mini-meals?

The solution that follows will likely not be very popular :blackeye: to most anybody, especially anyone in a multi-cat household. (How do you all manage it?)
But it’s the best I can come up with, and is offered sincerely --- & with sympathy for the difficulties of feeding when you have multiple cats.

The way I can see it might happen for Rupert is ... all 4 of your cats transition (can’t be done overnight!) to a “non-grazing” feeding schedule (preferably twice-a-day meals, if at all possible) - at least for now & especially because the current feeding schedule of all the cats is keeping you from getting Rupert’s diabetes well-controlled.

This would mean you have to take a hard line, toughen up & be the “alpha cat-mom” to your pride o’ kitties.

Keep this in mind: :cat:In the wild, cats will characteristically eat a BIG meal, then not eat for an entire day! Our “domesticated” cats have learned to become grazers because we humans turn them into grazers - they would not normally eat this way otherwise. (Remember, I’d done that myself to Bat-Bat - which is how she ballooned up to 18 pounds before the diabetes hit her & whittled her down to skinny by the time she was first diagnosed.) So once we’ve turned them into grazers, it’s only natural for them to heartily pitch a fit (read: buy lots of earplugs) until we transition them out of that not-so-helpful habit of grazing throughout the day.

It’s hard. You have to stand firm while all those adorable kitty-faces whine & pout & cry & yowl pitifully to try to convince you that they are just STARVING. (Some may even go as far as to pull a little “hunger strike” - not unlike a bratty 4-year-old who threatens, “I’ll hold my breath until I TURN BLUE!!!” Ha, my daughter tried that once, and found she didn’t win the game. No, it wasn't about food.;))

Guess what? Your kitties won’t actually starve. (Ask Bat-Bat, who for a while sounded like an entire Mormon Tabernacle Choir of kitties as we were making the transition to twice a day feedings. She was a master terrorist:nailbiting:, but I didn’t give in.)
She’s still alive & well today. :cat:

Will they like it? H*ll, no! (Why no "furious kitty" emoticon to insert here?) But here’s the deal: You have a sick kitty on your hands. Changing his feeding schedule won’t kill him ... but uncontrolled diabetes can.

How might you manage it?

Well ... it’s you who will have to decide how quickly you can best transition from multi-meals to fewer meals. If they’ve been eating, say, 5 times a day, maybe shift it to 4 times for a few days, then 3 for a few days, then 2. (And no snacks in between.) But here’s the foundation to help you get Rupert’s #’s to come down & stay down:

1) Rupert eats in a room BY HIMSELF closed off from the other 3 at mealtimes. He get the correct amount of food for his optimum weight and no more than that (unless you’re dealing with hypo event, of course).
2) AND the 2 slow-eaters stay in another closed room until they finish their respective meals. (Give them a reasonable time limit, hen pick up the food if they’ve not finished. And don’t give it back: they just have to wait until the next mealtime to eat again. Believe me, those two will learn to quit dawdling.)
3) The other fast-eating cat can eat wherever he wants, so long as he's not with Rupert while eating.

What to do about the large meal/ scarf & barf problem? (Yep, we went through that messy bit, too!)

1) As you’re transitioning, the AMPS/PMPS meals gets gradually larger, and any other meals in between get gradually smaller.
2) If you can make it down to 2 (large) meals/day, add water to the food (slows them down) AND pick up the plate for a short “food rest” halfway through the meal. (Essential for Rupert, maybe not so much for the others ... unless you actually get a kick out of cleaning up cat-barf. I am now an expert cat-barf cleaner-upper.:p)

You will find, over time, that without so many meals/ snacks throughout the day, Rupert will (generally) be ready to eat, pre-shot. And perhaps if you can get all cats in your house on board, your life will feel saner/less stressful, given that you’re now actively treating a diabetic.

Will you run into an occasional snag? Sure! Bat-Bat recently barfed her ENTIRE meal, right after one of her “as needed” insulin shots. :)arghh:panic time!) So first, I reminded myself to breathe. I waited 15 minutes & fed her 1/3 of the usual ration. (TG, it stayed there.) Then 10 minutes later, fed the 2nd 1/3; and in 10 more min. fed the final 1/3. It all stayed down. Checked her BG - it was going up. Checked again at nadir-time to reassure myself. All was ok; crisis averted.

Once you have made the transition & are able to get a clearer picture of when Rupert nadirs, things get a lot easier. A couple examples: If he drops too low @ nadir, you give a little higher-carb something & test in 15 min. to make sure that # is rising; if his nadir # is too high after a few cycles at the same dose, you’ll likely need to bump up the dose.

I did not start giving Bat-Bat mini-meals until her pre-shot numbers were starting to average around 150 (or less) at a micro-dose of ProZinc. (She eats at around 6:45 am, 11 am, 6:45 pm and 10:30 pm., with the AMPS/PMPS meals being slightly larger than the other two.) If she actually makes it into remission, I will likely transition her - gradually - to 3 meals/day, then 2 meals/day, because I’d like to have my life back one of these days:rolleyes:.

It isn’t an easy task to accomplish, I know: This type of plan may not be workable for you at all (maybe you can only get down to 3 meals/day, for example). And when there are other health complications, too - like pancreatitis, CKD, etc. - you must do what works best to treat all of those conditions simultaneously.

Barring such complications, while I realize that every diabetic cat is different, diabetes is always the same for every cat: :(It sickens. It emaciates. It weakens. And it can kill.

So do your best; discover what works for you and your kitty. (Take what you need from the above, and leave the rest.):)
I will leave you today with the little line that is in a frame above my desk:
The greatest pleasure in life is doing what others say can’t be done.:bighug::bighug::bighug:
Hi Robin, you have given me so much great information, I have had to be away today, so I haven't had much time to study it but I will! Thank you, thank you so much! I will be back. (said in my best Arnold Schwarzenegger voice)
 
I am reading your full of great info post, Robin and I am laughing too hard to take it all in right now! I will study in a bit, I have read and there are some really helpful hints! Ok, so I will start a twice a meal feed program and I already separate the fast eaters from the slow, so that won't change. More to read and ponder on, have guests (oh my, spending time with actual humans for once!). Thank you soooooooo much, all of you. I wish I could do more than just say "thank you", take you to dinner, give you a pedicure??? :bighug:
 
More to read and ponder on, have guests (oh my, spending time with actual humans for once!). :bighug:
Guests??? Um ... what are "guests?" (Yep, sometimes is interesting to spend time with other human beings in person! Will be having guests in next few days myself, which should be interesting, since Bat-Bat is not exactly the warm & welcoming co-hostess.:eek:)
 
Guests??? Um ... what are "guests?" (Yep, sometimes is interesting to spend time with other human beings in person! Will be having guests in next few days myself, which should be interesting, since Bat-Bat is not exactly the warm & welcoming co-hostess.:eek:)
So Bat-Bat is not into company? She will give them the evil eye and hope they drop some crumbs! :cat: My company just now is going to bed, looks like I will get that +5 BG test in tonight. Say goodnight to Bat-Bat for me. Thank you again for all the great info you posted, that took some time and Rupert and I are very grateful.
 
While the big cats may eat a big meal and fast in between, I believe the smaller cats, which eat small rodents, birds, and some insects, have a more intermittent, feeding style than that.
I always let mine graze. There was an amount out that was generally finished up by +10.
Do you have some that are the scarfers and other slow ones? I have two that eat super fast and two that like to lick the juice off first, by then the other two swoop in and finish off the meat! I always used the grazing method before, hoping I will be able to again once Rupert gets his blood sugar under control. Maybe. Thanks BJM there may be hope for grazing again here some day.
 
If it was white foamy stuff or maybe yellowy-brown watery stuff that could be caused by excess build-up of stomach acid. Saoirse suffered similarly when the diagnosing vet insisted she only be fed twice a day. I stopped it after the second time she vomited. Vet or no vet, I was not going to cause my cat further distress. I wasn't prepared to force my cat to the protocol. I believe in tailoring the protocol to the cat.

When you're next getting labs, Lynn, maybe ask your vet to do a pancreatitis test and check his kidney values (purely as a precaution). No labs are wasted since it is valuable to have baselines for future reference. :)



Good move on switching back to mini meals. I'm sure Rupert's tummy thanks you for this. :)

Every cat is different. Some cats may get on with two meals a day, but if a cat can't cope with that smaller meals / grazing are the way to go. As discussed above you do need to work the food with the insulin type you are using - front-loading carbs for the cycle when using in-out insulins, especially the harsher ones - and your own cat's pattern.

When running curves, I used to try to encompass a food trial into the test sequence, e.g. for when Saoirse was on Lantus:

AMPS then feed.
+2 test (onset check - especially at low numbers, or when on harsher insulins).
+3 test, then feed (checking for early nadir).
+4 test 1hr postprandial (check for how much BG may be elevated by food).
+5 test 2hrs postprandial (testing to see how well BG levels are recovering after meal).
+6 then feed
+9 then feed
PMPS

You can vary your test strategy depending on what you want to find out. I was always concerned about how low a dose might take Saoirse if her appetite disappeared in the middle of a cycle. She tended to metabolize insulin fast and therefore tended to produce early nadirs. When she was on Caninsulin I would monitor her clinical signs in the first few hours after injection - very closely after onset - and provided it was safe to do so I'd withhold her next meal till after a +3 test to see how low the dose was taking her for the current cycle. I'd typically test at +7 to make sure the dose was wearing off. (Couldn't even attempt to rest until she was past PM+7 - I was always petrified of waking up in the morning to find the worst had happened.)

Doing little 'food trial' tests at different times in the cycle on different days (same dose, obviously) can point you to the best times to feed mini meals without spiking the BG too much. Gradually you'll learn your cat's typical pattern (e.g. high during day, lower during night or vice versa) and develop a schedule that works for you both. Once the pattern is established, spot checks and some routine curves should be adequate for general BG monitoring.



Mogs
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Wonderful information here Robin! This makes sense to me, I have done some smaller curves, but wasn't taking the feeding times into account. I only tried the twice a day feeding once and he ate so fast, he threw it all up, only time he as thrown up since he started on insulin, so I am pretty sure it was just too much and too fast. I might try it again, would save me some time and maybe he would feel fuller. If that is not working for him, I will look into getting an automatic feeder. Do any of you use EVO also? I am going to print this out and give it a try when I have a day at home (with no company). Night, night to you and Bat-Bat.
 
Hi, Lynn - Finally have my internet back. While I waited, I did a lot of thinking & wrote you "a tome." (Fair warning of the lengthy post to come.:eek:)
So here goes ...

Re: Your multi-cat household - You're in a tough spot, feeding-wise; I feel for you. You have 1 diabetic kitty + 3 non-diabetic, all of whom are accustomed to grazing (which how I used to feed Bat-Bat, pre-diabetes; most people feed pets this way).

I suspect that much of Rupert's problem (glucose #s not coming down) is likely food-related. There are two parts to this:

1) Multi-cat household with 2 fast eaters (one is Rupert), 2 slow eaters.
2)From what I see in Rupert's chart to date, except for the night of 7/18, it's very hard for you to determine where his nadirs might be, on-insulin, most likely due to (quoting you) "many mini-meals." (Plus snacks. And possibly also due to Rupert scarfing a little of the slower-eaters' food unless you are watching like a hawk the entire time they're all eating - which is almost impossible to do ALL of the time ...) Because every time he eats, his blood sugar will rise - so how do you uncover nadir with a cycle full of mini-meals?

The solution that follows will likely not be very popular :blackeye: to most anybody, especially anyone in a multi-cat household. (How do you all manage it?)
But it’s the best I can come up with, and is offered sincerely --- & with sympathy for the difficulties of feeding when you have multiple cats.

The way I can see it might happen for Rupert is ... all 4 of your cats transition (can’t be done overnight!) to a “non-grazing” feeding schedule (preferably twice-a-day meals, if at all possible) - at least for now & especially because the current feeding schedule of all the cats is keeping you from getting Rupert’s diabetes well-controlled.

This would mean you have to take a hard line, toughen up & be the “alpha cat-mom” to your pride o’ kitties.

Keep this in mind: :cat:In the wild, cats will characteristically eat a BIG meal, then not eat for an entire day! Our “domesticated” cats have learned to become grazers because we humans turn them into grazers - they would not normally eat this way otherwise. (Remember, I’d done that myself to Bat-Bat - which is how she ballooned up to 18 pounds before the diabetes hit her & whittled her down to skinny by the time she was first diagnosed.) So once we’ve turned them into grazers, it’s only natural for them to heartily pitch a fit (read: buy lots of earplugs) until we transition them out of that not-so-helpful habit of grazing throughout the day.

It’s hard. You have to stand firm while all those adorable kitty-faces whine & pout & cry & yowl pitifully to try to convince you that they are just STARVING. (Some may even go as far as to pull a little “hunger strike” - not unlike a bratty 4-year-old who threatens, “I’ll hold my breath until I TURN BLUE!!!” Ha, my daughter tried that once, and found she didn’t win the game. No, it wasn't about food.;))

Guess what? Your kitties won’t actually starve. (Ask Bat-Bat, who for a while sounded like an entire Mormon Tabernacle Choir of kitties as we were making the transition to twice a day feedings. She was a master terrorist:nailbiting:, but I didn’t give in.)
She’s still alive & well today. :cat:

Will they like it? H*ll, no! (Why no "furious kitty" emoticon to insert here?) But here’s the deal: You have a sick kitty on your hands. Changing his feeding schedule won’t kill him ... but uncontrolled diabetes can.

How might you manage it?

Well ... it’s you who will have to decide how quickly you can best transition from multi-meals to fewer meals. If they’ve been eating, say, 5 times a day, maybe shift it to 4 times for a few days, then 3 for a few days, then 2. (And no snacks in between.) But here’s the foundation to help you get Rupert’s #’s to come down & stay down:

1) Rupert eats in a room BY HIMSELF closed off from the other 3 at mealtimes. He get the correct amount of food for his optimum weight and no more than that (unless you’re dealing with hypo event, of course).
2) AND the 2 slow-eaters stay in another closed room until they finish their respective meals. (Give them a reasonable time limit, hen pick up the food if they’ve not finished. And don’t give it back: they just have to wait until the next mealtime to eat again. Believe me, those two will learn to quit dawdling.)
3) The other fast-eating cat can eat wherever he wants, so long as he's not with Rupert while eating.

What to do about the large meal/ scarf & barf problem? (Yep, we went through that messy bit, too!)

1) As you’re transitioning, the AMPS/PMPS meals gets gradually larger, and any other meals in between get gradually smaller.
2) If you can make it down to 2 (large) meals/day, add water to the food (slows them down) AND pick up the plate for a short “food rest” halfway through the meal. (Essential for Rupert, maybe not so much for the others ... unless you actually get a kick out of cleaning up cat-barf. I am now an expert cat-barf cleaner-upper.:p)

You will find, over time, that without so many meals/ snacks throughout the day, Rupert will (generally) be ready to eat, pre-shot. And perhaps if you can get all cats in your house on board, your life will feel saner/less stressful, given that you’re now actively treating a diabetic.

Will you run into an occasional snag? Sure! Bat-Bat recently barfed her ENTIRE meal, right after one of her “as needed” insulin shots. :)arghh:panic time!) So first, I reminded myself to breathe. I waited 15 minutes & fed her 1/3 of the usual ration. (TG, it stayed there.) Then 10 minutes later, fed the 2nd 1/3; and in 10 more min. fed the final 1/3. It all stayed down. Checked her BG - it was going up. Checked again at nadir-time to reassure myself. All was ok; crisis averted.

Once you have made the transition & are able to get a clearer picture of when Rupert nadirs, things get a lot easier. A couple examples: If he drops too low @ nadir, you give a little higher-carb something & test in 15 min. to make sure that # is rising; if his nadir # is too high after a few cycles at the same dose, you’ll likely need to bump up the dose.

I did not start giving Bat-Bat mini-meals until her pre-shot numbers were starting to average around 150 (or less) at a micro-dose of ProZinc. (She eats at around 6:45 am, 11 am, 6:45 pm and 10:30 pm., with the AMPS/PMPS meals being slightly larger than the other two.) If she actually makes it into remission, I will likely transition her - gradually - to 3 meals/day, then 2 meals/day, because I’d like to have my life back one of these days:rolleyes:.

It isn’t an easy task to accomplish, I know: This type of plan may not be workable for you at all (maybe you can only get down to 3 meals/day, for example). And when there are other health complications, too - like pancreatitis, CKD, etc. - you must do what works best to treat all of those conditions simultaneously.

Barring such complications, while I realize that every diabetic cat is different, diabetes is always the same for every cat: :(It sickens. It emaciates. It weakens. And it can kill.

So do your best; discover what works for you and your kitty. (Take what you need from the above, and leave the rest.):)
I will leave you today with the little line that is in a frame above my desk:
The greatest pleasure in life is doing what others say can’t be done.:bighug::bighug::bighug:
I have finally had some quiet time to read this and I am inspired to give the two feedings a day a try. Mainly it will help me get a handle on Rupert's levels (I am totally confused as of now) and secondly, it will help me save some valuable time. I already separate him from the others, so no problem there. Today and tonight I waited and did not feed him anything 2 hrs prior to testing, he protested, but survived. I am going to print this out also, I am so grateful for all the time and effort you put into helping us! Sue is right, be sure to save this to re-post for others, it is really helpful.
 
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