Thumper 7/14

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Barbara

Barbara

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AMPS - 389
shot .8
+5 - 313

I went ahead & gave her a 1/4 tab of Pepcid this morning. I'm still undecided about it since she's showing no signs of nausea. Is that all it's for? I'm trying not to get to stressed about theses #'s but I don't like the way she's headed. What the h*** is wrong with this girl?

Joanna, I will go read that link from last night. I just don't know about the Pancreatitis. She is eating well, in fact maybe more than usual. I hesitate to say that & don't think I would tell the vet that though cause that would give them more ammo to say it's her diabetes. That makes no sense though cause she was doing fine then all of a sudden her #'s shoot up. I tried to tell them that last time & they just dismiss what I say. They only look at her #'s right then, but something is causing them to shoot up. Dose was not changed for days previous to the spike.
 
What is going on with Thump?

At least Kitty doesn't tease me with any low numbers!
 
Pepcid is for excess stomach acid, not for nausea. Acid can make them feel yucky and they can vomit foamy spit if bad enough (esp. of the cat has renal failure) but it isn't the same thing as true nausea.

I am not sure what the source of the rising numbers are. I assume you do not think she has an infection like a UTI? That would explain rising numbers. She could have pancreatitis of course, but generally with that you'll see appetite loss and other symptoms. This looks more like either insulin not being sufficient or an infection to me. You've got a curve now, just not a lower nadir. I'd hold where you are for a few days on dose and see what happens. Let her settle into it before you make more changes provided she doesn't drop too low.
 
Marcy & Klinger said:
Could your vial be losing it's punch?
Click to expand...

I did think of that Marcy. I've had it since April 1st and it has been left on the counter several times & I dropped it once but it was still working on her so I didn't replace it. I didn't want to end up like Kim & buy a new vial every 3 weeks! haha_smiley haha_smiley I know Robin said she had hers for a year but maybe mine has had too much rough handling. Anyone else think that might be the case??

Wendy, I have not seen any signs of an infection. When this happened before I really thought it was some sort of urinary infection since she's had those in the past but everything checked out ok. That was the day she got the Lasix & we went downhill from there! We never got any diagnosis & went through hell, then all of a sudden her #'s started going down. Now it looks like we are headed that way again. If I take her in I know they will start on the "It's cause she's not getting enough insulin, blah blah blah". They don't know either & just try to blame it on diabetes. That might work on some people but I know too much...it's not that...how could it be when nothing has changed & one day she just starts this upward climb! I was really grasping at straws with the pepcid and I didn't understand the reasoning so many give pepcid. Other than the foamy spit how would I know if she's got excess stomach acid? I think I'm leaning towards Pancreatitis cause I don't know of anything else.

I get in a panic because of what we went through last time I guess. I cannot afford another episode like last time. I spent at least 2000.00 & still don't know anything. That being said, if I knew I could get a diagnosis it would be worth it to pay again. Where is Denise.....what kind of dance is this? :lol: Sorry Denise, we're never gonna let go of that one!
 
+10 - 369

Going to do a PMPS pretty soon...maybe I should do it now. I'm having a hard time with not going up but she didn't get out of the 300's today. Does that possibly mean too much insulin???

PMPS - 396
Ketones 0.7

So they are going up...which means not enough insulin, correct? Nancy, where are you? I'm now leaning towards increasing to 1 Unit. And I'm talking to myself again..haven't done this in a few weeks! :smile:
 
You don't know what she did the first 4 hours-- maybe she had a big drop... Maybe not-- who knows? She can be very insulin sensitive-- but, it looks like something else is going on.

Inverse curve-- too much insulin...... Flat curve--- not enough'insulin. But-- you don't know where those first 4 hours were.
 
Ketones can be a result of too little insulin. But, infection can also be a major player in Ketones.

It is very important when you are suspicious of ketones to be sure they are eating. Also, add as much water as you can to her diet. If you don't-- you should add additional water to her food. Fluids help reduce ketones.
 
She is eating well, maybe a little more than usual & I always add water to her food to make it like lots of gravy & she licks every bit of water out of there! Today looks pretty flat to me which is another reason I was thinking of increasing. I don't know about the first 4 hrs but I'm guessing she didn't drop much.
 
Barbara,
I can't decide on the right dose for Alex, so I can't give dosing advice to anyone else, but in looking at her spreadsheet, why did you change the dose from .5? It looked pretty good to me.
 
Ginny, she was doing well on that then she started shooting up and has just continued to get higher everyday. She's showing just a little ketones & we had a problem with those before so that's why I'm considering increasing again. If there were no ketones I would probably stay where I am another day to see what happens.
 
LMAO!!! Sorry I just had to type that! I'm glad I'm providing you with some comic relief!

Did you see my post from earlier? :mrgreen:

And I shouldn't have to buy a new bottle of insulin...you've got a stock pile of 1/2 used bottles! :mrgreen:
 
Well, I'm not convinced that we're all giving the dose changes time to really settle in before we change them again.
They say patience is a virtue. I sure wish I'd hurry up and get some. :lol:
 
Kim, you see my last edit?

Ginny, I would have never changed if she hadn't started going up.
 
There will never be a shortage of Prozinc--- I have enough to last all of us years!
 
Sorry Barbara but I think you are chasing high numbers, panicking and raising his dose, causing rebound, panicking and raising his dose ......etc.

And you don't have ketones if it was 0.7 there are NO ketones. On the meter 0.1>1.6 is no ketones ..... if you look at her SS, she does really well on low dose, starts giving you some greens .... and then out of no where she'll throw a red and you panic and raise her dose.

I think when you are not seeing ketones, like now, you can keep her dose lower, I personally think 1u is too much, especially since she can really go low sometimes.

Even if you only suspect CP .... the pepcid can work to help keep everything EVEN, which is what we are aiming for. When they are not worrying about pain, or stomach upset or lack of insulin, or???? then, they can start to heal. You have not been doing this very long, patience .....

Payne has none of the symptoms of CP, except fluid leaking if she has an attack. My job is to see the off signs as soon as they start and stop it, which I think I just did, fingers crossed.

I think you are doing a great job! and I'm waiting for the worst things Kim has been called. :mrgreen:
 
I know you said yesterday trace would be above 1.6 but with the # increasing it made sense to me that we were heading higher. The insert with these strips say if you are between 0.6 and 1.5 and your blood glucose is 300 or higher it may indicate the development of a problem. I don't know the difference in human blood readings & cat blood readings though. UGH.....I wish I could catch her in the litter box but if she sees me following her she goes in the other direction.

So, you think I should stick with the pepcid bid? When I tried it a few days before I only gave it sid and I have no idea if it helped. How did you know Payne was leaking fluid?

As far as the dose. We had been at .5 for I think about 7 days I increased to .6 to see if I could get more greens, she went down to 56 on that so I backed off a hair (I think - it's hard for me to tell for sure with those small doses) then she started throwing out these pinks & continued to go higher. I'm back now at the ketones...my main reason for increasing and I guess I don't understand them. Now I'm more confused than ever...should I go back to .5 in the AM? confused_cat

And by now I forgot what name I had in mind for Kim...... :lol:
 
What the heck is goin on here...

ok Barbara, I will tell you that I have left prozinc out in 90 degree heat for 10 hours (no I was not drinking!)
and the insulin was fine....

what did i think hurt the insulin was when I dropped it(no not drinking again!)(spaz!)

so I dont know when you dropped but if it waas recently I would replace the vile
but be careful we dont want another Kim episode!
 
I have lots of strips...sh** why are you asking me that....I've got the Karo on the counter too... nailbite_smile
 
dmartini4 said:
what did i think hurt the insulin was when I dropped it(no not drinking again!)(spaz!)

so I dont know when you dropped but if it waas recently I would replace the vile
but be careful we dont want another Kim episode!
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Kim's just gonna send me some of her extras! :lol:

It has probably been a month since I dropped it...but it has been left out for about 4 hrs the first time at around 75 in the house then for 11 hrs and that's the night I dropped it about a month ago then on July 3rd for about 4 hrs. Is that my problem??? But she had some good numbers after that?
 
I think Miss Thumper is really affected by the way she feels - whether it is a tummy upset or whatever. I think (and God knows, I don't KNOW) that her numbers are influenced by that. I think that confuses her spreadsheet. But I'm with Nancy, I liked her numbers on .5. I think the one high number you got after the .5 days could have been a bounce.

What I really don't know is the ketone issue and will certainly defer to others. But if the ketones are okay, I would consider lowering back down to .5 and letting her bounce around training her liver, hoping she has good days in terms of her tummy.

I like Robin's idea of getting some numbers in tonight at the higher dose, if possible (Think that is why she asked about the strips) Then maybe going back to .5 tomorrow if everyone else is "normal".

Are we completely confusing you?
 
I dont know, I know after I bought a new vile after dropping the first vile his numbers really started
to drop...so I put the dropping of the vile together with new vile new good numebrs,
but you never really know!
 
What meter are you using? The Precision says in the manual 0.1>1.6, means no ketones .... when Payne is throwing off ketones she goes up in the 5.5>6.9 numbers .... on the strips that is, get your cat to the vet now!!

I would give the pepcid 2x a day just to see how she reacts .... all of this stuff is to take away anything that gets in the way of healing.

Somogyi effect:
It sounds completely illogical, but this is a condition in which the blood glucose level increases if too much insulin is given. It is also called rebounding, rebound hyperglycaemia or insulin-induced hyperglycaemia. If blood glucose levels drop too low or too suddenly, the body panics, thinking it’s being starved. Stored glucose is released to end this “starvation” and the body is flooded with glucose. This causes the blood glucose levels to bounce rapidly from next to zero to really high. This can happen when too much insulin is being injected. Common when first beginning to treat your diabetic cat, the solution is to give less insulin.

Let's see what Joanna has to say but let's see what she does on the 1u .....

I have started to attribute the spikes in Payne's ketones to problems with the pancreatitis ..... the last time they spiked I took her in for the test and they did an ultrasound, they actually saw the liquid leaking.

I think the main thing I would do is not panic over the high numbers and ride them through. Hold the dose and don't raise it for a few cycles. She needs so little insulin and she can go low .... I would think you have a really good chance of regulation ....
 
Nancy and Payne said:
What meter are you using? The Precision says in the manual 0.1>1.6, means no ketones .... when Payne is throwing off ketones she goes up in the 5.5>6.9 numbers .... on the strips that is, get your cat to the vet now!!
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I'm using the Precision Xtra but was reading the paper that comes in the box with the strips. I just looked at the actual manuel & it says the same thing on page 33. On the back of my manuel to the right of the bar code it has 11/09 do we have the same thing?
 
dmartini4 said:
I dont know, I know after I bought a new vile after dropping the first vile his numbers really started
to drop...so I put the dropping of the vile together with new vile new good numebrs,
but you never really know!
Click to expand...

I don't mind trying a new vial....what do the rest of you think? Kim?? :smile:
 
I wasn't trying to freak you out but since you already shot the 1u I thought it would be a good night to collect data to see how she processes it. It could be very revealing.

I did not mean to suggest you might be in trouble. Breathe.
 
You are asking Kim?? who has a stockpile of 3/4 used vials. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Okay, you are right I read the manual and yes, I use the Precision. My information came from Abbott .... I am so paranoid about DKA that I wanted to know exactly what the #'s were for felines.

Abbott claims that the precautions are for humans. They got back to me with the 0.6>1.6 meaning no ketones and I have confirmed that with the urine strips. (although I do know blood/urine different) Apparently people throw off ketones more than cats BUT it is not good if their BG is above 300, which is why the meter says what it says. With cats, they can throw off high ketones with low BG #'s and that is not good.

Yes, it is all confusing, I would much rather pick on Kim ..... but we have to wait.

The meter can drive you crazy! and I only bring it out anymore if urine strips shows ketones or Payne's eyes get round .... maybe you could figure out a way to test urine? Has Thumper had DKA?

I would test more tonight and I agree on .5u in the future, unless she has had DKA.
 
Rob & Harley said:
I wasn't trying to freak you out but since you already shot the 1u I thought it would be a good night to collect data to see how she processes it. It could be very revealing.

I did not mean to suggest you might be in trouble. Breathe.
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I really thought that is what you meant, BUT sometimes you gotta knock me over the head with something before I catch on. Did I ever tell ya'll I was blonde??? :lol: I don't mind admitting it!
 
Breath Messy Barbara!!!

I am a firm believer that Prozinc poops out. Get a new vial--- or I will send you some!

My Mom's alarms are going off.....
 
Nancy and Payne said:
You are asking Kim?? who has a stockpile of 3/4 used vials. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Okay, you are right I read the manual and yes, I use the Precision. My information came from Abbott .... I am so paranoid about DKA that I wanted to know exactly what the #'s were for felines.

Abbott claims that the precautions are for humans. They got back to me with the 0.6>1.6 meaning no ketones and I have confirmed that with the urine strips. (although I do know blood/urine different) Apparently people throw off ketones more than cats BUT it is not good if their BG is above 300, which is why the meter says what it says. With cats, they can throw off high ketones with low BG #'s and that is not good.

Yes, it is all confusing, I would much rather pick on Kim ..... but we have to wait.

The meter can drive you crazy! and I only bring it out anymore if urine strips shows ketones or Payne's eyes get round .... maybe you could figure out a way to test urine? Has Thumper had DKA?

I would test more tonight and I agree on .5u in the future, unless she has had DKA.
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Heck no, I wasn't asking Kim...that was a joke! :lol: But she said she's send me some. :lol:

I'm glad you verified that with Abbot but I'm kinda surprised they even gave you the time of day when they found out it was about a cat. I had really stopped with the meter till she got these high numbers. I know some people have used fish gravel or that non absorbent litter but I've tried that non absorbent stuff a couple of times with her in the past, I had to lock her up alone (which she hates, so she gets stressed) and she still refused to use it. She found a plastic Wal Mart bag in the floor & peed on that instead! She's truly stubborn. It amazes me that when she walks toward the bathroom where the litter box is and I just casually walk behind her as soon as she hears me she bolts under the bed. So, unless I sit in the bathroom all night I can't catch her very often. Sometimes I get lucky though!

Ok, I'm getting a +4 and probably a +6 tonight.
 
I can't predict what Henry, Asher or Thumper might do numberwise from day to day, so won't comment on that but I too am convinced the ProZinc loses strength and results start varying. We got our last bottle April 1 too and every time I get a new bottle, he gets better numbers for awhile. But really don't know. I'm picking up his new vial tomorrow, but maybe I should have just had Kim Fed Ex one of her 3/4 full bottles :lol:

Kim, glad your mom is o.k. Those alarms going off are very scary; when my mother in law had heart surgery for an aorta repair and valve replacement last year, they went off all the time and had me freaked, a lot of times it was the iv tubing or something got kinked.
 
Barbara said:
Rob & Harley said:
"Blond High 5" when you slap your forehead with the palm of your hand.

Sorry I couldn't help myself.
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haha_smiley haha_smiley
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I have a friend Kelly who is blond and is a volunteer firefighter who refers to herself as a "Firemame", the High 5 is her favorite thing to do.
 
Wow, her SS went from cool and groovy to crazy loopy in like 2 seconds didn't it? I can totally see both POVs on this one - some health problem is in play, her needs have gone up dramatically, ketones are climbing, she needs more insulin. OR that 1st pink PS was some kind of fluke, you raised the dose and now she is seeing some rebound and it's getting worse as the dose goes up, and making a mess.

Really I don't know. Here's my "detective work" analysis fwiw:

- With the exception of today, where you have mid-cycle data you appear to have U curves. So that suggests the dose on those cycles was too low, rather than heading in the too high direction.

- You shot 0.6 on a 192 before the recent wonki-party and got a drop to 56. So following that when I look at the data on 7/12 (PS 324, shot a fat 0.5, +12 also pink) I have a hard time thinking there's any chance that cycle caused a bounce. So then makes me think the cycle that night was also unrelated to any bounce numbers, which makes the 0.6 you shot then look too low.

- So carrying all that forward, I don't think the next day looks bouncy, it looks like too little insulin. If the dose were too high at that point, I would expect a shocking green nadir or something like that, rather than a high blue nadir.

- Now today is extra wonky :? with almost no drop at all on a higher dose, and that does tend to look bouncy to me (or insulin poop-out-y).

- If the non-ketone ketone reading :lol: is going up, that suggests too that she needs more insulin rather than less (assuming the numbers aren't just meter variation or something).

Really, I don't know what to think. Obviously I lean in the direction of more insulin rather than less, but at the same time today's results were cr*p, and raising fast does make me nervous. When you go back and look at like 6/17 & 6/18, she did a lot better when you lowered the dose some. (but was that when she started feeling better after having felt bad, so maybe her insulin needs were headed down? I don't recall...)

OK, so here's what I think I would try. If she is acting ok and eating ok, I would try a sample cycle at a lower dose, maybe the 0.5 that she seemed to really like for a while. If you don't get immediate good results, or if ketones go up, or if she seems unwell, then I would bump back up really fast.

If she *isn't* seeming well or isn't eating well, I would probably go to the (*shudder*) vets. I don't feel like they've done right by you (is there another vet in town maybe?), but if there is something like an infection maybe they will be able to identify it.

OK, I don't feel any confidence in my suggestions, LOL. Guess I am just throwing out ideas. Don't do any of what I said unless it really feels to you like the right thing to do.
 
ohmygod_smile ohmygod_smile And I don't think that's the blonde in me! :smile:

It is bizarre but everyone here at home says it's almost like she feels better when BG is high. It cooled off a lot today so I opened the patio door to the screen tonight. She loves sitting there looking outside and used to like to go sit on the patio (that's where the pic was taken) but has been doing that less & less. She was just over their scratching the screen so I opened it and she RAN down the steps to lay on the patio. Now I just went back to check on her & she's across the yard eating grass. So, now she'll probably come back in and barf. Does eating grass really mean anything? I think I've read before that means their stomach hurts??

Considering she seems to be feeling fine & if I don't have to worry about ketones at this point I don't mind going back down to .5 I'm just not sure of anything at this point. Going to chase her around the backyard to get a +4
 
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