Testing, eating and shooting question

[NicoleC46237]

This is a basic info question -

I keep canned food down 20 hours a day for the most part unless the 3 cats empty the bowls between meals which sometimes happens - it's a set amount of food a day. I pick the bowls up 2 hours before shot times for Lou.

First question - why do we do this? Is it to make sure that our sugar cat eats enough at shot time? Is it to make sure we're getting a BG reading not tainted by food in their system?

Follow up question - if the answer was so the cat will eat well for the shot time and your cat will anyway fo you have to withhold food?

Additional follow up question - if the answer was BG reading - wouldn't my BG readings during the days be thrown off by him having food all day be thrown off as well?

I could be wrong about the reasons so the follow up questions don't need answered anyway lol. I have just been thinking and wanted to have more knowledge

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

Hi Nicole you pick the food up 2 hours before testing because you don't want his BG number to be influenced by food

Yes you have to withhold food even if the cat eats well for you

We usually feed our cats 2-3 times a day. Small portions, it helps to get the pancreas working

Hopefully someone can explain this better than I did

 

[Judy and Freckles]

Additional follow up question - if the answer was BG reading - wouldn't my BG readings during the days be thrown off by him having food all day be thrown off as well?

Food will likely influence his numbers through the day. Experienced folk on this board suggested to me to have Freckles eat primarily before her nadir time so she could spend more time in lower numbers after her nadire. I use an automatic timed feeder, so food is dispensed about every 2 hours (prior to Freckles' nadir). With knowing when she is eating, I take that into consideration when I test her.

The other reason to have food during the cycle is to help steer the cat's numbers if there is a chance that they will go too low when the CG isn't at home.

 

[Ale & Bobo & Minnie (GA)]

This is a basic info question -

I keep canned food down 20 hours a day for the most part unless the 3 cats empty the bowls between meals which sometimes happens - it's a set amount of food a day. I pick the bowls up 2 hours before shot times for Lou.

First question - why do we do this? Is it to make sure that our sugar cat eats enough at shot time? Is it to make sure we're getting a BG reading not tainted by food in their system?

Follow up question - if the answer was so the cat will eat well for the shot time and your cat will anyway fo you have to withhold food?

Additional follow up question - if the answer was BG reading - wouldn't my BG readings during the days be thrown off by him having food all day be thrown off as well?

I could be wrong about the reasons so the follow up questions don't need answered anyway lol. I have just been thinking and wanted to have more knowledge

It’s always good to have more knowledge so thanks for asking!
I get the no food 2 hours before PS, but have also often wondered about the other test times. For instance, If I do a +2 and she just ate her regular meal, how true are the numbers going to be? But maybe since we already gave them the insulin it’s not as crucial...?

 

[Ale & Bobo & Minnie (GA)]

Food will likely influence his numbers through the day. Experienced folk on this board suggested to me to have Freckles eat primarily before her nadir time so she could spend more time in lower numbers after her nadire. I use an automatic timed feeder, so food is dispensed about every 2 hours (prior to Freckles' nadir). With knowing when she is eating, I take that into consideration when I test her.

The other reason to have food during the cycle is to help steer the cat's numbers if there is a chance that they will go too low when the CG isn't at home.

Hi Judy,

that’s interesting. I ask about feeding a lot because of feel that Minnie doesn’t eat nearly as much during the pm cycle compared to the day cycle. I was told we were suppose to feed the bulk of their meals around insulin shot time. But you feed around the nadir? Does it make a difference what insulin they’re on? But I see you use Lantus too...

 

[Judy and Freckles]

Minnie doesn’t eat nearly as much during the pm cycle compared to the day cycle

Every cat is different. Freckles has an additional diagnosis that increases her hunger drive, so she would eat all day every day if I let her! lol

I was told we were suppose to feed the bulk of their meals around insulin shot time.

You want to make sure your cat has food in her and has regular appetite before giving insulin - once insulin is in, you can't get it out! Freckles gets about 1/2 morning's meal at shot time and the remainder is primarily PRIOR to her nadir. After her nadir time, she get freeze dried chicken which doesn't have carbs to influence her numbers (same thing with supper meal)

But you feed around the nadir?

No - Freckles eats the majority of her food prior to nadir.

Does it make a difference what insulin they’re on? But I see you use Lantus too...

I think the insulin may be a factor. I don't have any personal experience with insulin other than Lantus and Levemir. I was on Lantus but switched to Levemir. Freckles has acromegaly which has caused for high doses of insulin. With the high doses, also came stinging at injection time with Lantus - that is primarily why we switched to Levemir. Levemir also has a later onset time and nadir time, so if you look at Freckles' spreadsheet, you will see lower numbers at pre-shot time with Levemir than she had when we were using Lantus.

 

[Ale & Bobo & Minnie (GA)]

Every cat is different. Freckles has an additional diagnosis that increases her hunger drive, so she would eat all day every day if I let her! lol

You want to make sure your cat has food in her and has regular appetite before giving insulin - once insulin is in, you can't get it out! Freckles gets about 1/2 morning's meal at shot time and the remainder is primarily PRIOR to her nadir. After her nadir time, she get freeze dried chicken which doesn't have carbs to influence her numbers (same thing with supper meal)

No - Freckles eats the majority of her food prior to nadir.

I think the insulin may be a factor. I don't have any personal experience with insulin other than Lantus and Levemir. I was on Lantus but switched to Levemir. Freckles has acromegaly which has caused for high doses of insulin. With the high doses, also came stinging at injection time with Lantus - that is primarily why we switched to Levemir. Levemir also has a later onset time and nadir time, so if you look at Freckles' spreadsheet, you will see lower numbers at pre-shot time with Levemir than she had when we were using Lantus.

Thanks for the detailed explanation! I just read up about acromegaly because I was thinking it could be something Monkey on another thread has when his dad posted pictures of the skin and pot belly...

yes, Minnie has an IBD like condition so I always have to make sure she has food in her and is not nauseated or going to vomit before I give her the shot

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

I just read up about acromegaly because I was thinking it could be something Monkey on another thread has when his dad posted pictures of the skin and pot belly...

Oh gosh I never even thought of that for Monkey sigh.

 

[Ale & Bobo & Minnie (GA)]

Oh gosh I never even thought of that for Monkey sigh.

This paragraph is what made me think of it: “Acromegaly, also known as hypersomatotropism, is a disease characterized by excess GH, which stimulates increased production of IGF-1 in the liver and other tissues. GH and IGF-1 cause a variety of changes in the body, including organ enlargement and increased proliferation of bone that can be seen visually as jaw enlargement (prognathism) or large paws”
They also mention pot belly and skin issues, @Judy and Freckles, can I tag you on the other thread? You may be able to shed some light...?

 

[Judy and Freckles]

GH and IGF-1 cause a variety of changes in the body, including organ enlargement and increased proliferation of bone that can be seen visually as jaw enlargement (prognathism) or large paws”
They also mention pot belly and skin issues,

Some cats don't show any physical signs and the tumour is typically slow growing... Freckles has no outward symptoms. Acromegaly in cats isn't as rare as once thought - about 1 in 4 diabetic cats have acromegaly. The general thought is if a cat gets higher doses (6u and higher) it is recommended that the CG look at testing for acromegaly and IAA. Some CG do, others don't - each to their own. There are some acro cats that don't even really have that high of insulin. Some acro cats don't get diabetes... it really is a condition that can vary so much between cats.

@Wendy&Neko is far more experienced with acro cats than I am, but sure you can tag me.

 

[jt and trouble (GA)]

I didnt mean to hijack Nicloe's thread

 

[Ale & Bobo & Minnie (GA)]

Some cats don't show any physical signs and the tumour is typically slow growing... Freckles has no outward symptoms. Acromegaly in cats isn't as rare as once thought - about 1 in 4 diabetic cats have acromegaly. The general thought is if a cat gets higher doses (6u and higher) it is recommended that the CG look at testing for acromegaly and IAA. Some CG do, others don't - each to their own. There are some acro cats that don't even really have that high of insulin. Some acro cats don't get diabetes... it really is a condition that can vary so much between cats.

@Wendy&Neko is far more experienced with acro cats than I am, but sure you can tag me.

I just want you to see the pics he posted of the enlarged belly and the skin scabs. I’ll tag both of you. I feel for him because I’m Hong long is not as easy to manage all these issues and his vet seems to be clueless. Thanks!

@Deb & Wink this is why I tagged them

 

[Wendy&Neko]

I keep canned food down 20 hours a day for the most part unless the 3 cats empty the bowls between meals which sometimes happens - it's a set amount of food a day. I pick the bowls up 2 hours before shot times for Lou.

First question - why do we do this?

I've got a slightly different take on this. And it's neither of the two options you listed above. When people are new, it's a guideline we suggest, not something you have to worry about forever. When you give insulin, you want to make sure the cat's blood sugar is at a safe number to give insulin. If he/she has eaten within the last couple of hours of testing prior to the shot, the number could be artificially inflated from the carbs in that food. The real non carb influenced number might be unsafe to give insulin. Not feeding for the couple hours before the preshot test means you know it's a safe number to shoot. As you get more experience, and you get some +1 and +2 tests and have a better idea how much the numbers go up because of their meals, you can relax the two hours guidelines. For example, if you know the cat always goes up by 30 points from dinner, and the cat has eaten before dinner, and is at BG of 120, that could be 90 without the food. That might be too low to shoot - depending on experience and dosing method being used. If they are at 70 after food, then definitely too low to shoot without the carb influence of 30 points, no matter the dosing method.

Skin issues aren't common in acrocats, but are in Cushings. Pot belly is a common symptom to both, though my girl didn't have an obvious pot. Like Judy said, symptoms are ECID.

 

[Deb & Wink]

@Deb & Wink this is why I tagged them

But they won't see the connection. Threads are separate, and unless you are posting in the most current thread, people have no idea why they are being tagged in a thread that is 2 weeks old.

 

[Ale & Bobo & Minnie (GA)]

But they won't see the connection. Threads are separate, and unless you are posting in the most current thread, people have no idea why they are being tagged in a thread that is 2 weeks old.

Crap then I’m not sure how to get them to see the pics

 

[Deb & Wink]

Crap then I’m not sure how to get them to see the pics

@Aleluia Grugru & Minnie
Go find Peter H's most current thread for Monkey over in the Lantus ISG forum.
Tag the people you want to chime in over in that thread. Explain why you want their help.

Be judicious in tagging, since people do have some critical responsibilities they are taking care of in life.

For instance, Wendy's elderly dad broke his leg, is in hospital, her mom lives on a remote island, and needs help from Wendy at times to help manage things.

 

[NicoleC46237]

I didnt mean to hijack Nicloe's thread

No worries at all!!

 

[Deb & Wink]

Lou earned a reduction with that 81 on PM cycle on 4/30/20.
You did not take the reduction.
I think you should.

EDIT: Sorry forgot that Lou is on MPM. Forget what I just said.

How is Lou's neuropathy these days?

 

[NicoleC46237]

Lou earned a reduction with that 81 on PM cycle on 4/30/20.
You did not take the reduction.
I think you should.

EDIT: Sorry forgot that Lou is on MPM. Forget what I just said.

How is Lou's neuropathy these days?

It's worse but he's still in good spirits. Mom is trying desperately to be patient ..... some days I do better at it than others.

 

[NicoleC46237]

I've got a slightly different take on this. And it's neither of the two options you listed above. When people are new, it's a guideline we suggest, not something you have to worry about forever. When you give insulin, you want to make sure the cat's blood sugar is at a safe number to give insulin. If he/she has eaten within the last couple of hours of testing prior to the shot, the number could be artificially inflated from the carbs in that food. The real non carb influenced number might be unsafe to give insulin. Not feeding for the couple hours before the preshot test means you know it's a safe number to shoot. As you get more experience, and you get some +1 and +2 tests and have a better idea how much the numbers go up because of their meals, you can relax the two hours guidelines. For example, if you know the cat always goes up by 30 points from dinner, and the cat has eaten before dinner, and is at BG of 120, that could be 90 without the food. That might be too low to shoot - depending on experience and dosing method being used. If they are at 70 after food, then definitely too low to shoot without the carb influence of 30 points, no matter the dosing method.

Skin issues aren't common in acrocats, but are in Cushings. Pot belly is a common symptom to both, though my girl didn't have an obvious pot. Like Judy said, symptoms are ECID.

This is more what I was hoping to hear - that as I learn more about Lou's behavior on his insulin and how he reacts to it and his food that it's not such a "hard and fast rule". There are times I wake up late and pull his food only 1 hour early but I know by his numbers he's good to stay on time to shoot so I'd like to go ahead and do it.