Test in any of the back paw PINK FOOT/ PADS?

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Tina & Rocky

Tina & Rocky

Member Since 2013
Hi,

I'm new here.. someone from another topic suggested that I post Rocky's case.

Rocky was DKA a few weeks ago and survived. He was just diagnose with diabetes with the DKA. He probably didn't have it until maybe September or October of this year. My friend was feeding him Venti sized cups of dry Meow Mix but I don't know if that could cause it. Rocky was a rescue from a T-N-R and I couldn't stand to see him die so I took over his care. I thought maybe I could put his diabetes into remission by feeding him only no or low carb canned cat food, with insulin, of course.

But is just isn't happening that way. He's on Lantus. I'm doing the 12 hr BG curve at home that I'll report to the vet tomorrow. I'm disappointed.

At 8PM his BG was 364 before eating dinner. (he's eaten ONLY canned Instinct Venison since I've had him)
at 10PM his BG was 325.
At 12AM his BG was 409 :!:

I called the vet and they told me not to worry, to just keep testing every 2 hrs through 10AM tomorrow.

I read at one website that vet's aren't so worried about if a BG is high and that bothers me. I want to do everything I can, if it's possible, to push Rocky's diabetes into remission. I know it may not be possible, that his pancreas may never be able to function normal again.

I do give him Zobaline, vitamin B12, 2x a day so that he is hungry enough to eat the deer meat food. I don't think he'll eat it without the Zobaline. I don't think that vitamin B12 would have a negative impact on the pancreas, do you? If anything, it should help it.

I am interested in the 'tight control' group. I am wondering if I should try something like this with Rocky.

Thank you,
Tina
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

Hi Tina.

Welcome. You've come to the right place. I am not knowledgeable enough to give you advice, but you will find a lot of people here who are, and lots more who, like me, have found support and help here and try to share it with others.

Have you read all the stickies for newbies? If not, I encourage you to do so, as there is a TON of great info there. It's overwhelming at first. I printed it all out so I could re-read it over and over, and I still refer to it often. There is one that will tell you how to set up a spreadsheet on which you can record information about the injections and blood glucose readings, among other things. The advice-givers here like to be able to look at that so they know how to guide you.

Don't be afraid to ask questions!!! There is no question that is too "dumb" or "silly" to ask. If you don't know the answer, ASK! Someone here will probably be able to give you the answer, or tell you how to find it. You are posting pretty late at night, so you may not get responses for a while. Someone should come along later in the morning that will help you get started.

Meanwhile, good luck with Rocky. You are doing a wonderful thing, trying to save him, and now you have help. :-D
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

Tina Marie had posted over in someone else's topic, over in the Feline Health forum. I thought there was a lot of great information there so I'm copying what she said here.

TinaMarie8 said:
Hi,

Thanks Wendy for suggesting I start a topic for Rocky. I think I really need to do so. Rocky survived the DKA but I may not survive the vet bill..

I wanted to see if I could kick-start Rocky's pancreas to work again so I want to feed him the lowest carb food possible. I am now feeding him the very expensive canned Instinct Venison. According to Dr. Pierson's food chart this one has ZERO carbs.

I have been giving Rocky very little Lantus insulin since he has been home. It's like 1 and 1/2 dose, I think, 2x a day. I was checking him for three days every three hours when he first came home and he was within a normal range, even dipped to 50 one night. The BG reading scared me but he was acting normal. I decided to feed him 1/2 a can of the Instinct and then I called the vet afterwards. They told me to give him the corn syrup but I told them that I had already fed him. In 3 hours his BG was back up to over 100.

So, tonight I'm doing the BG 12 hour curve and I'm very bummed out. It's a little after 1AM here and I'll be taking his BG every 2 hrs. His BG was at 364 at 8PM, already high, before he ate dinner. I gave him the insulin after he ate and then retested again at 10PM. It went down to 325. I tested again at 12AM and it was at 409. I called the vet because it was so high but they told me not to worry about it and to keep testing. Rocky was even being playful at this high level.

One thing I noticed with Rocky is that the third eye comes up a little when his BG is high. And, he starts scratching a lot and his fur comes out in patches. It started doing this again a few days ago. At first I thought this was from a food allergy but I do not think so now. I think it is from having a consistently high BG.

I would consider Rocky a "new" diabetes patient. I don't think he developed it until around November 2012. He was a tame cat who was eating mice out in a field, and eating some dry food that feral feeders were giving to him. He then went through the T-N-R program and ended up at my friend's house. My friend fed him nothing but Venti sized Starbuck's cups of dry MeoW Mix for a few months.

I give Rocky (1) Zobaline 2x a day. It's Vitamin B12. It won't hurt him and it makes him hungry enough to eat the deer meat. (Venison Instinct) I don't think it would have an impact on the BG, do you?

Really disappointed that I'm feeding him a a strictly ZERO carb canned food and his BG is still so high. I'm not so worried anymore about feeding him chicken or turkey as I think the fur coming out is related to the high BG and not a food allergy.

I'll look around here, but where should I post Rocky's case? I would like more help, especially in how to talk to vet's about how I want to handle Rocky's diabetes.

Thanks, Tina
Click to expand...
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

Tina,

You've made a great start, already covering the most important aspects of treating diabetes in cats.
1. low carb food. You are feeding Rocky the Instinct Venison.
2. a good insulin. Lantus is one of the good ones.
3. home testing. Important to keep our kitties safe and know what is going on with the BG (blood glucose) levels.

This is a great foundation to build on.

Yes, those high numbers are scary, but not as dangerous in the short term as the low numbers.

You said that Rocky dropped to 50 one time. What was the date that happened? Was that testing with a human meter or a pet specific meter? In either case, it earned Rocky an automatic dose reduction according to the TR (tight regulation) protocol we use.

Rocky may be bouncing off that low number and other low numbers. You said you are giving Rocky 1.5U of the Lantus insulin, correct? Is that still the dose you are giving?

I think that having a spreadsheet to track the numbers and doses for Rocky would be really helpful to us and enable us to help you better. Here are the instructions from over in the Tech Support forum on how to set that up. How to Get a SS and Link in your Signature *updated 2/13/12

My foster sugardude Wink had huge clumps of fur falling out and the worst dandruff, nickel sized patches, when he was unregulated. He was half bald! :o So yes, in my experience the unregulated diabetes could be a cause of the clumps of fur falling out with Rocky.

No, the B-12 does not affect the BG levels if it has no sugars in it. The Zobaline has no sugars so it's ok to use for our diabetic cats. What the methyl B-12 helps with is diabetic neuropathy, nerve damage that can affect the back legs and cause the cat to walk on their hocks.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

First of all, welcome to Lantus Land!!!! There is a wealth of information on here, and tons of people to help and answer questions. Feel free to ask as many times as you need to, even if they sound redundant to you. Sometimes, redundancy helps a person to learn better. Everyone learns things at their own speed, and you'll come across many times of trial and error periods.

Don't get too discouraged. FD is treatable, and it is manageable, too. Some cats do go into remission sooner than others, and then there are others that may or may not. Either way, you need to prepare yourself just the same. I've been at this for going on 4 years now (Blackie's diagnosis was March 13, 2010), and I'm still trying to figure out the secret for getting her diet controlled. Currently, she's regulated for the most part, but I want more for her.

In the meantime, lets get you situated here. The one thing that you need to set up is a spread sheet for Rocky. This will help you to keep track of his #s, and for others to view his SS, and his progress. They can tell what needs to be done by reading his #s. Here's the link to help you get his SS set up:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207&start=0

This link will help you understand what we do here, and so forth:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=18139

Here's the link to the Tight Regulation Protocol for Lantus and Levemir:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1581

Information with regards to Proper Handling and Storage of Insulin:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=151

Information with regards to the insulin depot:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=150

And information for shooting and handling low #s (hopefully you won't experience them anytime soon, however, this is always good to know just in case...):

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=147

I know that this is a lot of information to read in the beginning, and it may seem overwhelming to you at first (we've ALL been where you're at), however, in time you will get to know things, and are learning how Rocky reacts to insulin dose changes, and food amounts, etc.

Good luck, and don't be afraid. You've definitely come to the right place for help. These people will never steer you, or Rocky wrong. :-D
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

Welcome to Lantus Land!

We'll do our best to help you get Rocky regulated. As Deb noted, you've got several of the fundamental steps in place -- low carb food and home testing. Getting your spreadsheet set up will also allow us to help you so we can also see how Rocky is doing. It's very hard to provide any guidance if we can't see Rocky's numbers. As you'll find out, we're very numbers oriented here.

If the higher numbers Rocky is experiencing occurred shortly after (i.e., within 3 days) that 50, it's possible that Rocky is bouncing off of the low number.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

Welcome to LL Tina and sweet Rocky!! :-D So glad you found us!
Yes, please do read the stickies at the top of the forum as they will answer many of your questions as well as alert you to more questions you didn't even know you had :lol: There is a lot of great stuff to know, but you don't need to memorize it. We are here to help you in any way we can. You will find there is a tremendous amount of support in this family, and some very knowledgable people who will be able to provide you with the guidance you need and hopefully the answers you are looking for.
As mentioned, the spreadsheet is vital to helping others see at a glance what is happening with Rocky. Otherwise, it looks like you have really done your homework and have Rocky on the right path.
One thing to note, although remission is a wonderful thing, it's not a guarantee and it isn't the only good outcome. The biggest things we strive for is a healthy and happy cat. Getting them into some better healing numbers for their pancreas and aiding them in feeling top notch overall is key. And you will hear time and time again, that FD is a marathon, not a sprint. It takes time to help them into these healing numbers, because their bodies get used to the higher zones and most kitties 'bounce' when they hit some lower numbers. The liver panics and the numbers shoot up for a bit. By slowly and safely helping them along, hopefully the bounces will become less drastic and frequent.
I'm so excited for Rocky that he found you! Welcome to our journey and our family :-D
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

Welcome Tina. I found this board to be very helpful. I found it a few months after my cat was diagnosed. The fact that you can hometest will assure that

Rocky doesn't go too low and will help you get the dose just right. If you are using a human meter, you don't want the cat to go below 50. What meter are you using?

It depends on the cat, but some cats have their lowest BG's at midcyle (hours 5-8) after insulin. I learned many tips on how to get Lovey's numbers up quickly if

the current dose is too high. If the cat goes below 50, you need to reduce the insulin. When I started, I was having trouble hometesting and was a mess.

Lovey, my cat, and I are doing so much better now. Please put any questions you have in a post. You will get some great advice. Some people have

years experience treating their cats and helping others.

Sometimes you need to interpet why numbers are high. Sometimes when cats go too low below 50 or just

a safe number that is lower than their bodies are used to, or drop quickly from a high to a lower number, their liver will cause thier blood sugar to rise to compensate. This type of rise is from the cat's body reacting to numbers that are different from what they are used to. This is referred to as bouncing
or rebound. It can be short lived or effect the cat for a few days depending on the cat.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

just wanted to add my welcome! you're doing fine to start out and we'll do our best to help you. Kim/Twice had a very, very good point when she said that going off of insulin isn't the only good outcome - a well-regulated cat is a healthy cat. we can help you learn what you need to know to get him there. the stats of cats who follow the Tight Regulation Protocol soon after diagnosis and get regulated, and then go off of insulin are impressive. not every cat does, probably because they have underlying conditions, but getting the kitty regulated is our first goal.

So keep posting - there's someone online almost around the clock. you'll usually find responses fairly quickly to your questions. Add the ? post icon at the top of the posting screen when you have questions and take it off when you have enough answers to satisfy you. you can also put topics into the subject line and people who know about that topic will see it and come.

By editing the first post of your thread, or (cat) "condo" you can change what appears on the subject line on the main page.

Don't worry about the current high numbers. They might be a reaction to that 50, but whatever they are from, you'll be able to get them under control. This is a slow process - we say "it's a marathon, not a sprint." but you'll get there.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

So glad Rocky found such a wonderful bean to help him through this journey. Thank you for taking him in and accepting the challenge! Others have given you the essentials, but I just wanted to say hi. I hope we can get Rocky on the right track soon!
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

Welcome to LantusLand. I remember too well how overwhelmed I felt when Champ was first diagnosed. That was almost three years ago. While he's definitely not in remission and still needs insulin, he is healthier than he's ever been and our routine regarding his testing/shooting/feeding is so well established that it only takes minutes out of my day to do it all, and I'm a test-a-holic (someone who tests A LOT)!! If money is a concern, it really isn't necessary to feed such an expensive food. Zero carbs really aren't necessary. As long as it is low carb (I keep it at 5% carbs or lower), it's a good food. I feed Fancy Feast classics. I keep it to three flavors I know he loves; chicken feast, beef feast, and chunky chicken. Just find a flavor he loves that's low carb. For a nice zero carb snack, you have many options. Fancy Feast has a zero carb food, Fish & Shrimp (instead of saying "classic" on the can, it says "flaked"). You shouldn't feed fish very often, especially in male cats, because it can cause urinary problems, but it's good for a little snack. Also, there is freeze-dried chicken, salmon, and shrimp that cats usually love. You can also crush some of this up and sprinkle it on their food if they don't want to eat their meals. Champ's kitty crack is bonito flakes. He will do handstands just to get a little bit!!

Again, welcome!! We're all here for you so if you ever need any morale support or any advice, just post!!
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

Hi,

Thank you all for your really warm welcome. Is there a place where i can share who I am, my cat rescue, and Rocky's story?

I'm not good at spread sheets so I'll ask a friend who is to create it for me. I can then probably figure out how to add in the numbers. I know that no one here can look at a bunch of numbers written inside of this post and tell me exactly what to do.. haha.. that would be very confusing, I think.

Yes, I have studied cat health on the internet for several years now. I won't go into because I could fill a book. I have known since about 2006 that cats are obligated carnivores, they won't drink enough water on their own if fed dry kibble, and I believe that diet is a key component to a cat's good health.

I think I tossed my records of Rocky's first BG readings when he first came home from the hospital after surviving DKA and being diagnosed as diabetic. I had taken his BG right away for about 3 nights because I thought that I was suppose to begin the "BG curve" right away. I remember that the numbers were never above 250, and I had one night as low as 50. On that night, in the middle of the night, I fed him 1/2 can of the Instinct and his BG went back up to something like 109 in 3 hours. The vet had told me to use corn syrup, but I knew that ANY food would cause is BG to rise, so why not give him something good to eat? I did call the 24 hour vet that night and they told me that I wasn't suppose to be taking his BG yet, that I was to wait for 10 days. So I stopped monitoring him. There may have been a few other times in those days where his BG was in the 80s and 60s. I will search for those papers but I honestly think that I tossed them.

It's been past 10 days now and I had not been monitoring, as per the vets instructions. Rocky's fur started to come out in nickel-sized clumps again, and he has been drinking more water, but not an excessive amount, just more water. So, it was time to start the curve. My first reading last night before he ate was 364mg, so I knew we were in trouble... I called the vet each time it kept going up, finally reaching 458. I was panicked because I can't afford another DKA episode. It did come down again to 409 the next 3 hr reading but that is still way too high.

This morning at 6AM I talked to the vet and told her that I was afraid to feed Rocky because of the last high reading of 409. She discussed it with her collegues and they agreed that I should increase Rocky's dosage to (2) units of Lantus. He was on 1.5.

They told me not to take his BG at all for another 7 to 10 days, that I might not see any change his BG for at least 4 days. At the same time, they told me to monitor him for changes to see if he goes too low.

I am using the Relion monitor that I bought from Walmart. It requires only a tiny amount of blood. I can't afford to go buy another one. I hope this one is satisfactory. It was suggested by Dr. Lisa Pierson on her website.

It is nice to be here and thank you all for responding and wanting to help me and Rocky.

-Tina

**P.S. I wanted to add a correction. I said that I considered Rocky a newly diagnosed diabetic cat but I put the wrong date. In my friend's care, she noticed that he started peeing large volumes of urine in Sept. 2013, not in 2012. He did not come under my care and visit the vet until the beginning of December 2013. My friend had gone on vacation and I was watching Rocky. I knew that if I did not get him to the vet that he would die. He almost died of DKA anyway.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

couple of things - we all hometest our diabetic cats and we all encourage everyone else to do so too. Would any of us shoot insulin into a diabetic child without knowing whether or not it's safe?

what your vet may not know is that high numbers can result from the cat having hit a low number. it doesn't always mean they need more insulin. cats get used to a range of blood sugar and then if they dip down from that, that ALONE can cause high numbers that last up to 3 days. Here is a link that explains 2 situations where you might see high blood sugar numbers but you don't want to increase the dose. They are EXTREMELY common. Nearly every cat that is unregulated has these 2 things happen. New Dose Wonkiness and Bouncing

Cats can be very difficult to get regulated - a zillion times more difficult than a dog or a human. What we often find is that vets don't have much experience with diabetic cats. They have to deal with many different illnesses and often, diabetes gets 15 minutes. seriously. over the course of their degree programs, it is most often very minimal instruction on it. Many people just euthanize their cats upon diagnosis.

Lantus and Levemir are the 2 best insulins for a cat because they last the longest in the body, but dosing with them is different than older insulins. Nearly all dose increases are based upon the LOW point that a cat gets to on a particular dose, not the high number. So we test in search of the lows, so we know if a dose is appropriate or not. With a cat that's had DKA we are far more cautious in our advising, so it's good you mentioned it. Every cat develops patterns in how they react to the insulin, which we will help you learn to see.

We can get someone to set up a spreadsheet for you and you can enter the numbers in from that point on. It's easy to do and we're happy to help if you're not techy.

before you increase the dose, if we could just see some numbers we could let you know if it's a good idea or not.

overdosed cats have blood sugar numbers that look a lot like underdosed, but with enough tests, we can tell the difference.

eta - no carbs isn't necessary or even necessarily good for the cat. most of us feed around 5% and that is plenty low. a mouse or bird is a cat's natural food and both contain some grains in their stomach. if i remember correctly, they average around 7%.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

This sticky New to the Group? is going to be your best friend for a while.

We'd love to hear about Rocky's story and the rest of it. There are directions on the link above on how to create a profile and link it to your signature line. That's the place for it.

Your meter is fine - the strips are some of the less expensive one and of course, that helps everyone out.

and kudos to you for taking the little guy in! i'm sure he's better for it!
 
IMPORTANT- Rocky's BG at 43mg

I increased Rocky to (2) units of Lantus after eating breakfast this morning as per vet's instructions. This was after reporting the 12 hr BG readings, taken every 2 hrs, of over 400s.

Rocky's BG after receiving the increased dosage of .5 units (was at 1.5 then vet said move to 2.0 units) is now TOO LOW.

His reading is BG 43mg!!!

What should I do? He is not having seizures. I have some Classic Chicken Fancy Feast. Should I feed him the entire can? He does seem a tad lethargic. He also seems a bit dehydrated. I know how to give fluids and have them as well as the needles and set-ups. Thinking of giving 100 ML of fluids. They gave him 200 mL. I think he has been peeing more than I knew. I need to switch to a clumping litter with him so I have a better idea of urine volume.

He is scratching the heck out of his face again and is all bloody.

Worried.. scared..
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

ok - so the dose is more than enough.

for now, pop open a can of high carb cat food if you've got any - anything that says gravy on it. squeeze out a teaspoon of the gravy and give it to rocky.

then you're going to wait 15=20 minutes and retest. he'll be ok. i'll stay with you and help you steer him up.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

don't give zero carbs. if you don't have a cat food with gravy, give karo syrup, about a teaspoon or honey, or pancake syrup. we want carbs in him asap.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

don't keep editing your last post.

go ahead and post a new one or we might miss something you're saying. i don't know why he's scratching his face, but that and his hair falling out might point to a food allergy.

don't feed an entire can - we need him to be willing to eat. just a teaspoon of something with carbs.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

sorry - i keep somehow missing things in your post.

don't give him fluids right now. sometimes that can lower BGs. let's just concentrate on getting him up.

give 1 teaspoon of gravy only out of the cat food can, or karo, etc. then wait 15 minutes and retest.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

Some quick information in your signature would be helpful too.
Something like this:

Tina and Rocky
DX date 09/xx/13 DKA 12/xx/2013
Relion (Confirm? Prime?) w/ Lantus
Nature's Variety Instinct wet food, B-12 (Zobaline)

Click on User control panel, at the top of the screen, select the Profile tab, Select Edit Signature from the left hand menu, type in this information, select submit to save. That information will now be at the end of each of your posts.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

Rocky is extremely hungry. I just fed him 1/2 can of Friskies Meledey's Beef in Gravy. A friend donated it to me for my ferals just yesterday and I remembered it was in the garage.

Sorry that I fed him more than you asked me to give to him. He is devouring all of it.

I will not give him any fluids in this moment, although I've dealt with dehydrated cats enough to know that he needs them by tonight, or I'm going to have to take him to the ER for re-hydration.

I will stop editing my posts. Sorry to cause confusion.

Thank goodness you are all here!!

I will re-check Rocky's BG in 20 minutes. Set the timer to do so.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

many cats will naturally want to eat when their blood sugar goes low, so that's probably why he seems ravenous. the reason we give small amounts of the carbs is because with a long-lasting insulin like lev or lantus, it can take a while to bring up the blood sugar. so we just give them a teaspoon or so at a time, then recheck in 20ish minutes, and if the numbers are still under 50, we repeat the process. that can go on for a while and we like the kitty to stay hungry so we don't have trouble getting them to eat.

no harm done though! there isn't one of us who hasn't done that same thing, especially the first time you see a low number that shocks you. i've given whole cans too! :lol: and ya know what? it works! :-D

tonight's dose needs to be reduced. how many hours until you give your next shot?
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

When you have a chance, please print out this post and keep it where you can find it. Especially with the winter weather and potential electrical outages, you might need help when you can't get online here. This has all the details on how to handle low numbers at any time - at some point you'll be faced with one when you're ready to give a shot and this is really helpful: Shooting and Handling Low Numbers

For now, here's the part on just dealing with a low number like you are doing right now.

DON'T PANIC! or HOW TO HANDLE LOW NUMBERS

First, try to not panic. Post to the Lantus Insulin Support Group or on the Health Board. Make sure your subject line indicates you are concerned about a possible hypo and/or add the 911 icon to the first post in your condo. People who are experienced in dealing with low numbers will be there to help. After posting, remember to refresh your browser periodically to see if people have replied.

It’s important to recognize that just because your cat may be experiencing low BG numbers doesn’t mean that your kitty is critically hypoglycemic. Many cats will have low numbers and never have symptoms. It’s important, though, to bring those numbers up into a safe range. ALWAYS make sure you have a stock of test strips, high carb (HC) canned food that contains gravy and is over 15% carb such as Fancy Feast grilled, marinated, or Gravy Lovers varieties (see Dr. Lisa's Cat Food Nutritional Composition List for a full list of options), and/or a simple sugar solution such as Karo/corn syrup, honey, maple syrup, etc.

If your cat is experiencing symptoms, especially if those symptoms are severe, you need to rub Karo syrup, honey, or maple syrup on the gums or, if symptoms are very severe, administer rectally and get your cat to the nearest 24-hour emergency facility. Take the bottle of syrup with you to administer on the way if necessary. (Note that it is rare that we see episodes of symptomatic hypoglycemia with Lantus and even rarer to see severe symptoms. But, you need to know what to do should they occur.)

The symptoms to be concerned about include but are not limited to:
staggering, uncoordinated movements, 'drunken' walk, wobbling, balance problems
ataxia - usually lack of muscular coordination, but maybe changes in head and neck movements
disorientation (yowling, walking in circles, etc.)
twitching
stupor
convulsions or seizures
coma
If your cat is testing in low numbers and you are not getting a quick response to your post, there are several things you need to do. (Low numbers are under 50mg/dL or 2.8 mmol/L.)

Depending on how carbohydrate sensitive your cat is, feed approximately a teaspoon or less of gravy from high carb food or high carb food only.
(If you have a cat with GI issues, using a couple of drops of syrup plus low carb food is an alternative.)
Test again in 15 – 20 min. Depending on the numbers, give more HC food.
Repeat the above steps every 15 – 20 min. until your cat tests in the 50 mg/dL (2.8 mmol/L) or above range for 2 consecutive tests. Continue to feed in small amounts to keep numbers in a safe range.
Test in 30 - 40 min. and repeat the test and feed process until there are 2 consecutive tests where numbers are stable or rising.
Test in an hour and follow the same steps.
DO NOT become complacent. If number have risen after one or two tests, it’s important to continue testing. Numbers may bobble up and down as the HC food and/or Karo wear off. DO NOT get one test where your cat has risen from low numbers into the 50s and go to sleep or leave the house. You are putting your cat in a risky situation. When in doubt, leave HC food out.

In the case of an accidental overdose or should there be symptoms of hypoglycemia, even if you have caught this in the early stages, you may need to monitor for literally 16 or more hours. Lantus and Levemir are long acting types of insulin. This means if your cat is over dose, you will need to stay alert for hours in order to closely monitor and to keep your cat safe.

Please post your numbers. Those people who are helping you will not abandon you. In fact, they are staying up with you. The experienced people will even work in shifts to make sure your cat is safe and you have the support you need. Remember to refresh your browser to see new posts and keep posting so we know all is well.

~ written by Sienne and Gabby
Click to expand...
 
IMPORTANT UPDATE- going LOWER: at 37mg

He's now at 37mg after eating 1/2 a can of Friskies Beef and Gravy.

He's not shaking. No seizures that I can see.

I do have Caro syrup. Should I give that to him right now?
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

sometimes it takes more than 20 minutes to get teh carbs into the blood stream.

give a teaspoon of the karo, wait 15 minutes and repost.

i think we can bring him up, but if you get scared and want to go to the vet's, i'd understand. just tell me.

we've had cats get below 30, but i don't know rocky.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

Julie,

Sorry I missed your post. I didn't know what to do. I just gave Rocky 2 tsps of Friskies Beef in Gravy Prime Filet. It is IMPOSSIBLE to separate the beef from the gravy in this type of food.

He still really wants to eat and is eating it all. He is extremely happy to see me coming into the room with more food. Tail in air and running to me. No shaking, seizures, or wobbly walking that I can see. Seems very alert. How fast can he crash though? Scared..

I'll wait another 20 minutes and take another reading. If still low at that time, or going lower, should I give Karo syrup or take him to the vet? Can someone please answer me ASAP, if you are available.

Thank you!
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

can you go ahead and retest now?

it's been at least 1/2 hr since you gave him the 1/2 can of high carb, so he should be on his way up by now.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

Julie,

Rocky gets his next dose of insulin in 5 hours. I haven't even called the yet about his low numbers because he's still behaving like a normal cat, other than scratching the heck out of his face and making it bleed.

Not sure to give him Karo syrup or more Beef and Gravy at next reading. It's not likely that it's going to spike to 100 in 20 minutes, I think. I pray it does not go lower still..
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

Tina

Just talked to Julie so if you don't see her above post, please retest now....don't wait. He's had the first food in him for 30 minutes and he should be coming up.

After you test, please check your private messages because I sent you one; I can set his SS up in about 1 minute so we can get some numbers on there to help us. To see your private messages, look in the upper left hand corner of the webpage to the right of "user control panel". click on where it probably says "1 new message".

But first...test him and let us know where he is and we'll give you instructions. Him first, then we'll do SS.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

Julie,

I am waiting the 20 minutes after his 2nd feeding of Beef and Gravy. Fed him only the 2 tsps this time to keep him hungry just in case I need to keep feeding high carbs.

Have not given any Karo syrup.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

ok. you're doing great tina! nothing like baptism by fire on your first day here!

would you retest him now and post his current BGs? don't need to give any more carbs at this point. sometimes it takes longer to kick in and i can't imagine you haven't given him enough by now.

just retest and post. just want to be sure he's on his way up.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

Tina

Please do not wait to test him again! Please test him now. Please trust us on this. It doesn't matter if he's acting fine or not.
 
Panic over- BG now at 50mg

Julie and Marge,

Rocky's BG is now at 50mg.

As per your instructions, just retest him after 2nd serving of Friskies Prime Filet Beef and Gravy. In total, he has now eaten about 3/4 can of Friskies Prime Filet Beef and Gravy. (I have no idea how many carbs are in it.) I never gave him any Karo syrup.

OK, so now am I going to panic in a few hours because his BG will skyrocket over 400 from feeding him this high carb canned food?
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

Tina

The thing is that none of us know Rocky or how he responds to carbs so Julie was spot on in what she suggested and if he rises fast, it's may be somewhat carbs but it's probably more his liver reacting to those very low numbers. I'm actually surprised he's not higher than 50 with all of that in him. I would retest him thirty minutes from the last test. I wouldn't feed him more right this minute.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

great job!

thanks for retesting and posting. in this kind of situation, i always sit on the other end on my computer and wish i had esp to know what was going on!

he might very well go high from the high carbs, more likely from bouncing from having gotten into the 30's. not sure if you had a chance to see the link i gave you above on bouncing.

the thing about high numbers - they are different in the body from this situation than just if he didn't have enough insulin. so i don't think you need to sweat the high numbers that might come from this.

he might not go high from it, but if he *does, don't let them get to you.

couple things now that the immediate issue is resolved.

for whatever reason, when we post it offers us the option of a subject line. but the only subject line that shows on the main page is the one from the very first post of this thread. so we edit the first post multiple times during the day and put the most current information in there. the only reason i saw you were in need of help was because i happened to be checking in on you anyway. so when you need help, always edit that first post and put it in the subject line. if people had seen it on the main page, you'd have had lots of attention!

the other thing is that numbers can wobble as the carbs wear off. the food carbs will last longer than Karo would've, so they might not wobble today. but sometimes they do, so we recheck every 30 minutes until the cat is over 70 or so and holding up for 2 tests without any carb intervention. that doesn't have to make total sense to you right now, but it will as you need it. we want to keep him over 50.

Will you retest him again 30 minutes after your last test and repost by editing the subject line of your first post. I'll set a timer and be back to check in with you in 30 - here in Oregon that's 4:00pm.

you doing ok?

*edited to correct "if he doesn't" to "if he DOES"
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

Julie and Marge,

I changed the subject like to IMPORTANT in the thread when I posted this emergency. Are you telling me I need to go back to my very first post in this group, in this forum, and change the subject line there so that the new condition gets noticed?

I will re-test Rocky's BG again at 4PM, about 11 min. from now, and then post here. I hope it hasn't gone down.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

that's exactly right - you have to edit the subject line of the very first post of this thread. i saw your subject line change changes only because i was reading your thread anyway.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

Julie and Marge,

At 4PM Rocky's BG 66mg.

I feed 4 colonies of ferals at dusk every evening. Will I be able to do this tonight?

Also, I don't have any Neosporin. Rocky's poor ears... I want to run to CVS or Rite Aid to get something for his pain. He has been such a good sport.

I have not called Rocky's vet yet about what just happened. To think that they had advised me to not recheck him for 7 to 10 days after I had added that .5 to his dose. I just thought I should check about 6 to 8 hrs afterwards, just in case. I'm glad that I did!!

Having said that, I really like Rocky's vets and they are part of a 24 hr hospital that is not even a 5 minutes drive from my house. I'm not going to switch vets.
 
Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

depends on how long you're going to be gone and where he is when you need to leave. if it doesn't take too long to get there and back, probably you'll be able to go.

if you haven't given any more food (which you don't need to right now) test him again in 1/2 hr from the last test and repost. we'll be watching - if he's still rising you probably are done for today.

most vets really are great, but they just don't have the experience with these newer insulins or extensive experience with diabetic cats. we can help guide you with the dosing and testing and teach you how to keep him safe.
 
Re: BG 69mg - Rocky at 4:30PM

Rocky's BG went up 3 points in last 1/2 an hour. I'm going to run to the store very fast and buy the Neosporin for his ears. BRB.

Wondering, having a quesy feeling in my gut about how much insulin to give Rocky after he has his dinner tonight. I pulled an all-nighter last night with the 12 hr BG Curve for him. I am so tired..

Going to call the vet and tell them what just happened over the past few hours, see what they have to say. Rocky's two vets are not working today. It was another vet who told me to increase the dosage.
 
Re: BG 69mg - Rocky at 4:30PM

that's not much of a rise. essentially flat, in fact.

keep checking him every 1/2 hr.

we're talking about his dose and will get back to you before you shoot. do you shoot at 8pm pacific time? if he keeps staying flat we think you might want to skip tonight. what do you think about that? let's see where he is later.

the neosporin ointment with pain relief is awesome!
 
Re: BG 69mg - Rocky at 4:30PM

I'll be around tonight at about your shot time, Tina, so I can help you decided what to do. But, as Julie said, we think if he doesn't come WAY up, you should skip the shot tonight and allow his depot to drain. That also gives you time to fill in his SS so we can really study it and figure out what dose might be best for him. It's clearly not this one.
 
Re: BG 69mg - Rocky at 4:30PM

Tina, don't want you to feel deserted, but i'm on my way out for the evening. there are plenty of people around to help you, and now that you know how to edit your subject line that will help.

you can edit it all day long with current info. If you add a ? then people will make sure and check to see what your question is. If you have a question on a particular topic, say getting blood from his ear, you can post something like "help with blood testing?" and people will come and give you tips on what works for them. it's like a bulletin board that lets everyone see how the kitties are all doing at a glance.

We use a particular format that let's people see at a glance how any cat is doing. Because we have people all over the world, we count a 24 hr clock. When you feel settled and up to trying it, the format is

date - Rocky - AM or PM preshot blood sugar number, then the number of hours past the shot and the blood sugar.

so today, you'd have had something like this:
1/11 Rocky AMPS xx (i don't think you did a test preshot), +6/43, +6.75/37, +7.25/50, +8/66 +8.5/69

you get the idea.

then in the evening, some people erase everything back to the name and put PMPS and start the count over again. I always left up the low number for that cycle and erased the rest, then added the evening cycle.

The next day start a new "condo" (think home for a cat) and in your first post of the day, include a link to the previous day. that way people can look back easily at what happened the day before or the day before that, to give the best possible advice to you. To do that, copy the browser address for the previous post, the in the new day's post, hit the URL button and put the web address between the brackets.

We ask people to stick to one condo or thread, per cat per day. that way everyone stays on the front page and no one gets missed. just keep editing that subject line to include whatever you want. when you only edit the subject line it doesn't bump up your topic, so if you want help, also add a new reply at the bottom of the thread so it bumps up.

Don't worry if this is confusing. People will help you along the way. You don't have to do this til you get the hang of it all, so no worries. just letting you know for when you're ready.

I hope you have a great evening and can sleep well tonight. great job handling him today. and on behalf of the feral kitties, thanks for being a good person and feeding them!
 
Re: NEED HELP ASAP- Rocky's Insulin dosage for tonight?

Hi Julie,

I'm so exhausted right now from pulling the all nighter BG Curve that I don't quiet understand the 'condo' thing. I won't start a new thread though, I'll just keep changing the subject line, for now.

Ok.. So, I went to the store and bought Neosporin for Rocky's ears. Called the vet while I was in the parking lot and gave them the info. on the 'hypo' scare this afternoon. I asked them what dose I should give Rocky tonight at 8PM.

The vet tech told me that I should bring Rocky in to their hospital. Remember that Rocky was at BG 409mg at 8AM this morning before he ate and before I gave him that (2) unit shot. Six hours later, at 2PM, he was at BG 43mg. That's when I fed him the high carb canned foods and started checking him every hour an hour.

So, Rocky went from BG 400smg for a 12 hr period of time, then all the way down to BG 43mg, six hours after receiving an increased insulin dose.

The vets aren't going to give me any advise. They want me to bring Rocky to the hospital as an emergency case because they don't have any appointments available tonight. That means it costs me a whole lot of extra money. I have already spent over $5k on him for the DKA.

Is it possible that Rocky could be DKA again even with these low numbers? I don't have any of those DKA strips to test him, and even if I did, I wouldn't know exactly what to do..

I can tell you this- Rocky has been drinking more water for the past 3 days. He is scratching his head until he bleeds again.

I am thinking of reducing Rocky's dose of insulin to the original 1.5 units at 8PM tonight after he eats and then just monitoring all night. I will then try to make an appointment for the morning.

Anyone else have anything to say about Rocky's insulin dosage or vet visit?

Thank you!
 
Re: NEED HELP ASAP- Rocky's Insulin dosage for tonight?

Hi Tina,

I don't have any dosing advice. I'll leave that to those already helping you.

I don't think you need to take him back to the vet though. It's obvious the 2 units was more than enough to bring him down quickly from those high numbers. And you'll probably see him bounce back up into them as his liver adjusts. They probably won't do anything that you can't do at home with monitoring, HC food and good guidance.

I would continue to test him at the frequency Marje and Julie and recommending. They have a lot of experience. There are also people on the board almost around the clock. The quiet time is really between 3 and 5 eastern. That's between when the west coast people go to bed and the east coast people wake up.
 
Re: NEED HELP ASAP- Rocky's Insulin dosage for tonight?

Tina

Remember that a 43 to them is really low because they use an Alpha Trak. While we don't like a kitty to be at 43 or lower, if a kitty is in the 40s, they are generally safe. There is just no cushion and so we like for them to get up as soon as possible.

Cats with DKA can have a low BG but typically we would see a very high one. He' s likely drinking a lot of water because his BGs are high. Can you test him for ketones with urine ketone strips that you get at the pharmacy? They are much cheaper than the blood ketone strips and you just dip it in their urine, count 15 seconds, and compare it to the chart.

The fact that he is eating right now tends to make me think he's not in a DKA episode. What we typically see with DKA (and remember that ECID so this is just in general) is high BGs, no eating, extremely lethargic, hanging out at the water bowl. If he was having those symptoms, I would urge you to get immediately to the vet.

The decision is yours. IMHO, just based on his BG because I am not there to see him, I think I'd save the money. If you feel he is not feeling well or is acting abnormally in any way, then you should take him in. If you believe he seems to be feeling fine and acting normally, as long as he is eating and drinking, I'd give a second thought to taking him in.

As far as the dose tonight, we need to see what he is doing at PS. If you can continue to let us know what his BG is, that would be helpful. While I originally thought skipping might be a good answer (I forgot he had DKA), it's not wise to not get some insulin in him. We might just have to shoot a greatly reduced dose just to get it in him.

I've got to give Gracie insulin but I will continue to check on you. We can specifically talk about dose tonight when you test him at +11 which is 7pm your time. OK? Deep breath!!!
 
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