Terra, AMps 424, +6 100, PMps 547 Help!

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KarenAmelia

Member Since 2012
This is feeling pretty out of control. Terra is on Lantus, she started on 12/31 and the BG spreadsheet should be below. I was informed yesterday that there might be a bounce, and today's readings may be affected by a furshot yesterday, and my decision to shoot another unit into the scruff just to be safe. I know that is not advised but it seemed like there was a lot of insulin on her fur. This reading is pretty high, with a good midway read of 100. Help!!
 
First -- don't panic. The numbers are ugly but not horrible and they will come down. Promise.

The prevailing bit of wisdom, such as it is, when using Lantus is that this insulin likes consistency. The more frequently that you change dose without letting a dose settle, the wonkier the numbers. You've been doing a great job of holding the dose -- until last night. Ideally, you would have called it a fur shot, gotten a good night's sleep and shot 2.0u in the morning.

What you really needed to do last night was get some additional tests. You have no idea what happened with Terra's numbers especially since you gave a second shot. I know you're thinking, "How much could her numbers have dropped if they were in the 400s at PMPS and at AMPS?" Gabby has done that and her nadir was in the 40s. (Nov. 2, 2009: AMPS = 429, +4 = 47, PMPS = 400.) Gabby got a dose reduction.

The +6 of 100 is among the lowest numbers that Terra has seen. As a result, what you've got tonight is a bounce. This is a normal response to lower numbers. The liver releases glycogen, a stored form of glucose, along with counterregulatory hormones which cause BG levels to spike. You should have shot your usual 2.0u dose rather than having shaved the dose. A bounce can take up to 72 hours to clear. So, do NOT raise the dose. Just hold your current dose of 2.0u until the bounce clear.

I want to emphatically encourage you to get a test every night before you go to bed -- or at least one test during the PM cycle. Many cats experience lower numbers during the PM cycle. In addition, if you don't test, you are missing half of your data.
 
welcome to Lantus Land!

I'm curious, did you get any additional tests last night? In yesterday's thread you mentioned that you would be monitoring due to the extra shot.

I do think Terra is bouncing off of the numbers that are lower than she is used to. They will hit a lower than usual number one cycle, then go high for up to 72 hours. It's frustrating, to say the least, but it is normal at this stage in the game. Usually the bounces get lower and shorter as you go along. As Sienne said, do not increase the dose until the bounce clears.

I also agree that you need to try to get a before bed test every night. That one test can yield a lot of information about what is going on while you're asleep. Whatever time you're getting ready for bed, grab a test. If it's low, then of course you might want to do more testing, but for the most part you're just looking to gather information. Some cats have very different cycles at night than during the day.

Good job so far, and welcome!
 
I called my vet and I have to say that you two are somewhat more helpful than he. I suspect he doesn't have that much experience with FD. But he at least reassured me that Terra wouldn't die from a BG of 547. I thought that was pretty off the charts!

Any rate, there is conflicting info out there, some of it on articles on this site. I read about rebound in the linked article and it said to reduce dose by 25%. Since my syringes don't have .5 unit markings, I thought just barely shaving the whole unit would serve.

Also, on my one day where I did a real curve (1/8) , the nadir was at +7. That timing agrees with the Lantus curve that someone posted on this site, so I figured that in general the nadir will happen around +7. In that case, is it worth doing a reading at +3? Doesn't seem too likely that this reading will tell me much, according to the curve and according to the numbers I have gotten so far. This would be about my bedtime. I haven't wanted to start interrupting my sleep to take BG reads, because if I'm going to be a dependable caregiver I need to at least be able to take care of myself, meaning getting enough sleep. Last night I didn't do any reads; I just took a chance and prayed she would still be alive come morning. Maybe that sounds negligent but I have to draw some boundaries. This FD stuff can get pretty obsessive!

So I'll just hold at 2.0 units of Lantus for the next couple of days and keep testing midpoints as well as +8, when I can.

Question: when you reduce the dose because of the low numbers at nadir, but the endpoint numbers are still high, what about instead feeding the cat an hour before the usual nadir, so as to bring the numbers up? That would improve the low BG and still allow you to control the high points.
 
Hi Karen & Terra and welcome to Lantus Land.

A bit of a bumpy start, but Terra will settle down with consistent dosing. It's complicated at first and it's a steep learning curve, but you will find that if you read the "Stickies" and ask as many questions as you need, it will all fall into place. At present you have two experts helping you, so I'll just say: welcome!

Ella & Rusty
 
Good questions!

KarenAmelia said:
Any rate, there is conflicting info out there, some of it on articles on this site. I read about rebound in the linked article and it said to reduce dose by 25%. Since my syringes don't have .5 unit markings, I thought just barely shaving the whole unit would serve.
"Rebound" is a controversial subject and people have lots of opinions about whether it even exists in cats. Here, we follow a Tight Regulation Protocol. There is no need to do "rebound checks" when following this protocol because we already know the dose is ok - we increased to it methodically, and we are testing enough to know what the dose is doing. In your case, you haven't been exactly following the TR protocol (which is ok, you didn't know about it so how could you follow it?). Because of the low blue Terra saw on 1.5 units, we would have increased to 1.75 rather than 2.0 units. Still, you're not far off and Terra's should be fine for now. I don't see a reason to reduce at this time, though she might need a reduction soon. That is why we're encouraging you to check her in the PM cycle too, though.

Also, on my one day where I did a real curve (1/8) , the nadir was at +7. That timing agrees with the Lantus curve that someone posted on this site, so I figured that in general the nadir will happen around +7. In that case, is it worth doing a reading at +3? Doesn't seem too likely that this reading will tell me much, according to the curve and according to the numbers I have gotten so far.
I love getting +3 tests because they can give you a good idea of how the rest of the cycle will go. Usually +2 is about the same as the preshot, and +3 is a little lower because the insulin has started to work. If the +2 or +3 are much lower than the preshot, then you know you need to pay attention to the rest of the cycle because she might be on a mission to drop low. If the +3 is about the same or higher than the preshot, then you can rest easier. As you start to collect more +2 and +3's, you'll start to see what Terra's patterns are, and then you'll know when she is differing from those patterns. Make sense?

I totally agree that you have to take care of yourself too. That is a big reason why I always tried to get a bedtime test, even if it is only +3. Then you know she'll be ok (or if she is dropping too much, you can feed her some carbs and bring her up so she'll surf safely).

So I'll just hold at 2.0 units of Lantus for the next couple of days and keep testing midpoints as well as +8, when I can.
Sounds good to me.

Question: when you reduce the dose because of the low numbers at nadir, but the endpoint numbers are still high, what about instead feeding the cat an hour before the usual nadir, so as to bring the numbers up? That would improve the low BG and still allow you to control the high points.
It's nice to see some thinking going on! There are some people here who have found that their cats respond better with different feeding schedules. It takes some experimentation to figure out what works best for your cat. Usually I suggest keeping it simple to start with, but if simple doesn't work for your cat then we can brainstorm what to try next.
 
Hi again, Karen,
Our posts crossed. I'll try to answer some of your questions.

I would not worry about "rebound" at present. You certainly don't want to be modifying the dose based on one cycle. Just keep giving your regular dose (2 units) until you meet the protocol's criteria to change it.

Nadirs can change. Usually they fall somewhere in the middle of the cycle, but there is no "rule". In any cycle the "nadir" is the lowest number. Some cats have nadirs as late as +11.
It is always worth your while to get tests in. You don't always have to do curves. Just get a test when it is convenient (a "spot check"), and put the result in your spreadsheet. In that way you will gradually accumulate data and you will begin to see patterns. Someone once said that dealing with feline diabetes is a marathon, not a sprint. The more data you accumulate, the more prepared you are to deal with anomalies and with difficult situations, should they arise.
The bedtime test should be part of your routine. It doesn't matter what time it is. As Sienne said, it will provide you with valuable information about how Terra "trends" at night.

Many people feed several small meals during the first part of the cycle (before nadir). Cats seem to do well if they eat their food allotment gradually. If you are not home, you can leave food out in an automatic feeder set to open at the desired hour, or you can freeze "pucks" of food and leave them out to defrost during the day. A typical feeding pattern is: AMPS, +1, +2 [+3]. Some give a small snack at around +8 or +9.

The protocol that we use as a framework for raising and reducing doses gives rather detailed information about what needs to be present in order to reduce a dose. In general, just because a number at "nadir" is lower than expected doesn't mean that you should reduce the dose at that time. For a cat in her/his first year of diagnosis, a number below 50 "triggers" an automatic reduction of .25 of a unit. Take a look at the protocol "Sticky" for more information. In general, it is best to hold a dose and give it time to settle in.

Consistency and patience are the key words in Feline Diabetes. Welcome!!

Ella & Rusty

p.s. I see that while I was struggling to write this, Libby has already answered your questions. If her comments conflict with mine, follow hers!!!
 
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