Switching from Vetsulin to PZI/Prozinc

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Val and Sebastian

Val and Sebastian

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We just found out about the Vetsulin recall (Sebastian has been off insulin for the last month when all of this happened!) His numbers have been creeping a little higher this past week, so we called our vet to ask what insulin they are now recommending, and apparently they use PZI/Prozinc.

Is there anyone who has used both Vetsulin and PZI who could tell me about any big differences? Anything we should be watching out for?

Is PZI dosed for U40 or U100 syringes? We use the U100 (cheaper to buy!) and have always just converted the Vetsulin dosage to fit.

Thanks for any advice or insight!
 
Welcome!

Yes, Nancy and Cody have switch from Vetsulin to ProZinc and are doing well. You may want to PM her. If I recall Cody has a few things goings ons. I know she hangs out in the High Dose forum. She's had at least one post in here that you can read and then I'm sure she has other posts in the High Dose forum that you can read. You may be able to get her to peak in on you here. Please keep us posted here in PZI Land with your progress.
 
I have used Vetsulin and PZI Vet (but not ProZinc). The jury is still out on how different ProZinc is from PZI Vet though. Some differences (PZI Vet vs. Vetsulin):

PZI seems a little softer in the drop - the onset is later (+2-ish vs. Vetsulin's +1-ish), nadir is later (+6-ish for my cat, vs. the +4-ish he got on Vetsulin), and the poopout is later (+10-ish vs. Vetsulin's +8-ish). Of course all of those #s can vary quite a bit by cat, but that's what I've seen with my cat.

PZI also seems a bit less predictable in whether or not they'll get a drop. If the dose is a hair too low they can get a fairly flat curve, or sometimes they'll get a good curve one cycle, and then flat curves after that until you raise the dose. And then small changes, even 0.1u or 0.2u can make a big difference in what results you see. Vetsulin seemed a lot more predictable to me - you shoot & you can put your money on what's coming next. PZI is a bit more of a guessing game, at least it seemed that way to me. The right dose is like magic and you get amazing #s, but the wrong dose - either a little too high or a little too low, seems like you are no where close to where you want to be.

Overall, I have been really happy with PZI, and am very glad I switched.

Most of us here use U-100 syringes and the conversion chart - most of our kitties are on intermediate doses and the 0.2u increments work well.

For dosing, a modified SLGS can work well - starting at the lowest dose you know is safe, hold for 2-3 days, and then raise if needed, either by 0.5u or 0.2u depending on how close you think you are (lowering of course if #s are too low). With PZI there are lots of other things you can do - sliding scale, shooting at different times than +12, etc. It makes the most sense to me (not that I did this myself, LOL!) to start at BID and make gradual dose increases, and only shift to other strategies if you've proved to yourself that they are needed.

[ETA: Different PZIs come in different strengths - some are U40 and some are U100. I haven't seen too many people around who use the U100 strength, and I'm not sure which PZIs come that way. Not sure about ProZinc.]
 
Val and Sebastian said:
We just found out about the Vetsulin recall (Sebastian has been off insulin for the last month when all of this happened!) His numbers have been creeping a little higher this past week, so we called our vet to ask what insulin they are now recommending, and apparently they use PZI/Prozinc.

Is there anyone who has used both Vetsulin and PZI who could tell me about any big differences? Anything we should be watching out for?

Is PZI dosed for U40 or U100 syringes? We use the U100 (cheaper to buy!) and have always just converted the Vetsulin dosage to fit.

Thanks for any advice or insight!
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PZI is dosed for U40 syringes, but many, if not all, folks here in PZI use the U100 and just do the conversion. The reason is so you can measure smaller doses easier, but I did not know that they also cost less too. Bonus! :)

Welcome to PZI Land! Ask any and all questions you can think of; we're here to help. :)
 
Thanks you guys! :-D This is exactly the sort of info I was looking for. PZI doesn't sound too scary (Lantus sounds scary to me by comparison!)

(And yeah, our vet charges $25 for a box of U40 syringes. We can get a box of U100 at Wal-Mart for $11!!)
 
Val and Sebastian said:
Thanks you guys! :-D This is exactly the sort of info I was looking for. PZI doesn't sound too scary (Lantus sounds scary to me by comparison!)

(And yeah, our vet charges $25 for a box of U40 syringes. We can get a box of U100 at Wal-Mart for $11!!)
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I love PZI! Buzz went OTJ on it (PZI Idexx, though; I've no experience with ProZinc) in exactly 4 months, so obviously it worked for her. :D I don't know much about Vetsulin, but from what I have heard, you will enjoy the longer action of PZI vs. Vetsulin.

We have a good little community here, if I do say so myself, and we will do all we can to help you. I apologize if you've already mentioned this, but what dose of ProZinc did your vet start you on? Have you already started the ProZinc or not yet?

Also, Sebastian is a gorgeous boy. :)
 
Thanks! We haven't picked up the PZI yet. Sebastian tested at 160 this morning, so my husband wants to see if he keeps coming back down on his own tonight and tomorrow morning, then we'll get the insulin tomorrow if we need to.

Apparently they still have some Vetsulin left over that they could give us, but I think I'd rather switch, given the circumstances.

Our vet isn't a big supporter of home testing and, if I remember correctly, started Sebastian on a too-aggressive dose of Vestsulin when he was diagnosed. We would probably just start with 1 unit, regardless of what she says to do. Especially since he seems to have some pancreatic action going on, even though it's a bit weak at the moment.
 
ProZinc is U-40 strength only [the compounded PZIs are the only one I know of that can come U-100 strength].

Are you guys on a low-carb wet food only diet yet? If not you will want to look at Janet & Binky's charts and find something below 10% carbs as %Kcal.
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html

Make sure to read the the sticky at the top of this forum http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopi ... =24&t=1979 . If you do get the U-100 needles make sure to get the ones with the 1/2 unit markings. The next most important thing is to get the 1/3cc ones.

Unless your kitty was a fairly high dose kitty, you may want to start out on ≈0.5U and work up from there in increments of ≈0.2U [especially if you think the P might be helping out] - or even smaller increments depending on your patience and how high the numbers are.

Also if you haven't already, get your spreadsheet going [the instructions are in Tech Support]? It will help others help you better.
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16
 
Hey Val,
I recently switched to Prozinc from a long time on Vetsulin. So far I'm REALLY happy I switched. I don't have time to post much right now but I will be back.

The short answer is I've found Prozinc to be really easy to use, very smooth slow improvements, but way more effective for us than the Vetsulin. On vetsulin, cody's numbers were all over the place, and I just couldn't bring him down below 250, even up to 13 u BID at one point. On Prozinc he's on half that and his numbers are..., well take a look ... I'm smiling because he's never had numbers this low, far from OTJ, but it took us 2 1/2 yrs to get this far, and I even think his pancreas may be trying to help again. I see drops even after I feed mid cycle snacks - still smiling :-D
 
I agree you might want to start at something lower than 1u, especially if you already have PSs in the blue #s!!! If it were me, I would probably start at something lower just to get a little data, and then bump up to 1u if needed. Might vary that a bit depending on what kind of Vetsulin dose was working for him though.

Am I right in understanding that he looked to be OTJ but is now creeping up? Seems to be a trend lately... what's up with that?
confused_cat
 
One difference that I can think of is in the feeding. I know with Vetsulin sometimes a feeding schedule is recommended - not so with PZI.

With PZI/ProZinc, free feeding is the best way to feed. No timed feeding and do not withhold food unless weight is an issue [and even then more even smaller meals is best]. Cats should eat 10-20 small meals per full day and this is true for cats on PZI.
 
Gator & H said:
Cats should eat 10-20 small meals per full day and this is true for cats on PZI.
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Hey, YOU try tellin' Bix he's got to stop after 20 small meals. LOL. That kitty is a g-r-a-z-e-r. :mrgreen:

Good point - with Vetsulin it's riskier food-wise & I think they usually recommend making sure they eat *before* the shot just in case, so no surprises. With PZI, the recommendation I've seen is just to be sure they eat something by +4 or so. There's still of course always some risk if they aren't eating at all, and doses may need adjusting if they aren't eating well, but PZI is more forgiving on the timing.
 
Joanna & Bix said:
Hey, YOU try tellin' Bix he's got to stop after 20 small meals. LOL.
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Umm yea, we both know you don't "tell" a cat to do anything. :-D But yea, Bix is an exemplum of a "good eater."

With PZI Vet I was able to get away with H going into food protest either without my knowledge before shot time, or I've shot the full amount even though I was getting clues that he was in the mood to go on food protest. Or probably most frequent that I would shoot in the morning and shortly after he would barf and go into food protest. I've never had any more problem [that I've known about] than a low PS the next cycle and having to adjust then.
 
Val,
As Joanna mentioned, it seems like I've also read about several kitties who are no longer completely OTJ. I've also read that one of the common canned foods recently added rice to their formula. I wonder if there's any connection. Out of curiosity, what does Sebastian eat? :?:
 
Wow-- thanks so much for all the responses, guys! This is all very helpful.

Sebastian tested at 130 this morning, so he's still coming down. I am not really sure what to do as far as insulin goes. I hate to invest in a vial if he's not going to be needing it but I don't want to be without it if he suddenly goes high again either!

He is eating a bunch of different canned varieties, mostly off the Janet and Binky chart. (Friskies, Authority, Fancy Feast, Wellness, Merrick mostly). We have some stores around here that carry "high end" food like Evangers, Natural Balance, etc. but I often don't see those on the list so I have to guess if they're okay. I won't buy it if I see rice in the ingredients but I'm sure I've messed up and given him something that's too carby on occasion.

We have another cat; we usually give them a 5 oz can to share in the morning, another at around 5pm, and then another before we go to bed at 11. (Sebastian is a big boy-- 17 pounds-- so he needs a lot of food!)

That is weird that other cats seem to be having this problem. Wonder if companies are cheapening their food quality?
 
I looked back in my previous posts to see what food was being described regarding the rice and it was Friskies. I'm only passing along what I've heard, so check it out for yourself.

Its amazing how important the food is, Cody grabbed 1 (lg) kibble of dog food last night and his AMPS is significantly higher today, ahhhhh...
 
I have the numbers from Natural Balance. It took me quite some time and effort to get it out of them. Unfortunately guessing is not OK. For instance Natural Balance [in the %Kal and /100kcal way Janet represents as]

Venison Grain Free is:
Pro Fat Carbs Fiber Phos
29.1 39.2 31.7 .92 388

And Duck Grain Free is:
Pro Fat Carbs Fiber Phos
29.7 54.7 15.9 .31 253

I can run the numbers on any other flavor of Natural Balance you would like me to - but it may take me a little bit to dig it all out. I do not feed food that I do not have the numbers for [such as Weruva which I could not get numbers from]. I have sent all the additional numbers I was luck to get to Janet but probably because of time she has not updated her chart in some time. If there are other companies food you give to your cats follow Janet's FAQ and try to get the "as-fed" or "DM basis" [NOT "guaranteed analysis" which they will try to tell you in some cases is the DM or as-fed - they are tricky sometimes you have to veryify against what is on their websites which is the GA numbers].

For the foods that I feed that ARE on H's list I went back and got the numbers again from that companies myself to verify that the numbers had not changed. I feel that it is critical for me to know exactly what I put in H's mouth.
 
Yikes! I can't believe those Natural Balance flavors are so high in carbs! I think the one we've tried was the "Ultra Formula."

I feel so bad because I feel like we rely on Friskies so much, and it's not great food. But our cats don't really like Wellness and sometimes will eat it, sometimes won't. They really like FF (which I'm not sure is any better than Friskies) but those tiny cans aren't really practical. We have to go through two per feeding.

I feel good about Instinct and EVO, but Instinct is super expensive and EVO is really hard to find around here. The only pet store I've seen it is in Athens, GA (I live in Atlanta). Seems like it's easier to find "boutique" pet stores with food for dogs than cats!
 
Are you anywhere near North point mall? There is a store on Mansell near Alpharetta highway that use to sell a lot of specialty kitty foods. And I think I have seen fancy feast in large cans at one of the pet store chains at Sandy Plains and Shallowford (not sure)
Approximately what do any of those foods cost? Do you remember?
 
Natural Balance Ultra nutritional breakdown

FYI I just dug up and ran the numbers for Natural Balance "Ultra Premium" canned formula:

As %Kcal & /100kcal as in J&B's charts
Pro Fat Carbs Fiber Phos
30.6 52.6 16.8 0.32 ??

If they like the Merriks there are a few flavors of it that I think are pretty awesome - H will not eat it though.

Also you can buy from petfooddirect.com and there are all sorts of free shipping coupons to be found for them.

The place I check for coupon codes before ordering from anywhere is http://www.retailmenot.com [a great site BTW!!!].

EVO tends to be pretty high in Phos.

If cost is an issue you can Google say "Wellness Coupon" or whatever. Also there are coupons in the "Supply Closet" for various things.
 
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