"Studies have indicated that high fiber, high carbohydrate fixed formula diets lower insulin req"

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

So...

I think I asked about low carb vs. lower carb but didn't get responses...

I had read somewhere on here that some people think that they do better with medium carbs rather than low carbs or zero carbs...?


So I'm up killing time waiting to feed my guy at nadir... and...picked up the pamphlet they just gave us at the vet for the followup visit the other day...

It says this in the middle pages under what to feed:

"Studies have indicated that high fiber, high carbohydrate, fixed formula diets lower insulin requirements and blood glucose levels."

In bold letters too lol.

So I googled the exact phrase and only found one result... a pdf from a veterinarian in Vermont...(not my vet).

Also:

"Experts believe that fiber may cause the body to be more responsive to insulin. Fiber also slows the absorption of glucose from the intestinal tract and decreases hyperglycemia (high blood sugar). "

Which I already had read when researching pumpkin for anal gland issues and possible holistic diabetic treatment...

So I'm going to start adding pumpkin back into their food either with tonights meal or tomorrow am... (I've been wanting to reintroduce it to prevent another anal gland abscess but was trying to cut down on variables)

But ...

Now I'm confused about the carbs...

The day I added in medium carb food because his numbers were lower than usual and he'd only recently had a dose increase ... he had an awesome PMPS that night...

In fact it was his very first blue Pre-shot test...

I gave him even more medium carb food in the PM cycle...

And the AMPS was even lower...

I assumed it was all because of the dose increase but that had started days before ...

I'm not ready to start adding carbs at this point...

But I'm definitely adding the pumpkin in ...

Which... may kind of be carby... there is conflicting info on pumpkin... potentially carby but then causes it to be released slowly and evenly so actually good for diabetics.. .(I'm paraphrasing...)


Anyway...

Still looking for info from people who do lower carb diets rather than low carb diets...as our guy still needs to gain a lot of weight...

Edit: I finally found what I had seen about lower carb vs low carb here; http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/feeding-lowest-zero-carb-vs-lower-carb-foods.144220/

 

[JanetNJ]

So...

I think I asked about low carb vs. lower carb but didn't get responses...

I had read somewhere on here that some people think that they do better with medium carbs rather than low carbs or zero carbs...


So I'm up killing time waiting to feed my guy at nadir... and...picked up the pamphlet they just gave us at the vet for the followup visit the other day...

It says this in the middle pages under what to feed:

"Studies have indicated that high fiber, high carbohydrate, fixed formula diets lower insulin requirements and blood glucose levels."

In bold letters too lol.

So I googled the exact phrase and only found one result... a pdf from a veterinarian in Vermont...(not my vet).

Also:

"Experts believe that fiber may cause the body to be more responsive to insulin. Fiber also slows the absorption of glucose from the intestinal tract and decreases hyperglycemia (high blood sugar). "

Which I already had read when researching pumpkin for anal gland issues and possible holistic diabetic treatment...

So I'm going to start adding pumpkin back into their food either with tonights meal or tomorrow am..

But ...

Now I'm confused about the carbs...

The day I added in medium carb food because his numbers were lower than usual and he'd only recently had a dose increase ... he had an awesome PMPS that night...

In fact it was his very first blue Pre-shot test...

I gave him even more medium carb food in the PM cycle...

And the AMPS was even lower...

I assumed it was all because of the dose increase but that had started days before ...

I'm not ready to start adding carbs at this point...

But I'm definitely adding the pumpkin in ...

Which... may kind of be carby... there is conflicting info on pumpkin... potentially carby but then causes it to be released slowly and evenly so actually good for diabetics.. .(I'm paraphrasing...)


Anyway...

Still looking for info from people who do lower carb diets rather than low carb diets...as our guy still needs to gain a lot of weight...

I think adding pumkin is a good idea. I myself feed some tikicat tuna and pumkin (comes with pumkin in it) a few times a week to keep cc regular.

 

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

I think adding pumkin is a good idea. I myself feed some tikicat tuna and pumkin (comes with pumkin in it) a few times a week to keep cc regular.

Thanks, I keep going back and forth on it but since he got so sick from an anal gland issue before I think it is worth trying.

 

[MamaMug]

I'm wary of anything referencing a study that doesn't cite their sources. Granted human medicine probably has a lot more published studies than veterinary medicine, I would still love to see this source. How many carbs does a tiger or lion eat? How many does a Pallas Cat or Scottish Wildcat eat? I think we all know the answer to that, and I don't see why it would be different for our little domesticated beasts.

The fiber is the more interesting bit, but my view on this whole fact sheet is honestly tainted by that carb statement, which I hope is just a typo. We give Gato pumpkin occasionally when he has lose stools, but I have read that too much of it when stools are normal can cause diarrhea so we generally only use it as needed when he needs some to bulk his stools.

 

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

I'm wary of anything referencing a study that doesn't cite their sources. Granted human medicine probably has a lot more published studies than veterinary medicine, I would still love to see this source. How many carbs does a tiger or lion eat? How many does a Pallas Cat or Scottish Wildcat eat? I think we all know the answer to that, and I don't see why it would be different for our little domesticated beasts.

The fiber is the more interesting bit, but my view on this whole fact sheet is honestly tainted by that carb statement, which I hope is just a typo. We give Gato pumpkin occasionally when he has lose stools, but I have read that too much of it when stools are normal can cause diarrhea so we generally only use it as needed when he needs some to bulk his stools.

lol I thought it might be a typo... I also thought it was my failing eyesight.... I had to keep rereading it...

I think the reason there is no source is because it's just a pamphlet they send home with newly diagnosed cats, it teaches you about insulin and how to inject and symptoms and stuff like that, nothing academic.

After I posted this I started googling it and there is a lot of info about this for humans.. but humans and cats have totally different dietary requirements so... I'm still confused lol...

Going to continue to look for info and think about it for a while... when I have more sleep lol.

 

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

And now that I look at the ss some more... there does seem to be a correlational between times I was giving him chicken which would be zero carbs... and his amps/pmps going up...

Not scientific enough cause too many variables... but ... making me think...

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

I think what is interesting in the middle pages you quoted is ‘ fixed formula diet’ .... otherwise known as a prescription diet. They are recommending a prescription diet which we all know is not necessary.
It is true that some cats do better being fed some carbs rather then no carbs. But we are still talking under 10% carbs.
When your kitty got the blue numbers after a recent increase and you had given some higher carbs, maybe the depot had filled and the new dose was starting to work.

I fed Sheba pumpkin each day, and it had no effect on the BSLs.

If you are trying to put weight on Jazzy, I would be looking at higher calorie food rather than higher carb food.

 

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

I think what is interesting in the middle pages you quoted is ‘ fixed formula diet’ .... otherwise known as a prescription diet. They are recommending a prescription diet which we all know is not necessary.
It is true that some cats do better being fed some carbs rather then no carbs. But we are still talking under 10% carbs.
When your kitty got the blue numbers after a recent increase and you had given some higher carbs, maybe the depot had filled and the new dose was starting to work.

I fed Sheba pumpkin each day, and it had no effect on the BSLs.

If you are trying to put weight on Jazzy, I would be looking at higher calorie food rather than higher carb food.

When I read the sticky on here about lower carb v low carb it links to a discussion and dr lisa responded a couple times, I was surprised...

but i think the "fixed formula diet" might be referring to what they talk about with some of these cat food formulas changing periodically due to costs etc....thus altering the makeup a bit...not sure.

Prozinc isn't a depot insulin though, it's "in and out".

Yeah , i couldn't sleep thinking about it and the people on that thread were talking about about 7% carbs I think... and I think thats what I would want to try if I decide to do it...

I did notice when he got the chicken that his leg weakness kind of returns...

Which doesn't make sense to me if his numbers are improving, he's gaining weight, all other symptoms stopped a long time ago... why the leg weakness returning?
Could be coincidental but then looking at the SS the days he got chicken, his PS did go up after that...

 

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

I think what is interesting in the middle pages you quoted is ‘ fixed formula diet’ .... otherwise known as a prescription diet. They are recommending a prescription diet which we all know is not necessary.
It is true that some cats do better being fed some carbs rather then no carbs. But we are still talking under 10% carbs.
When your kitty got the blue numbers after a recent increase and you had given some higher carbs, maybe the depot had filled and the new dose was starting to work.

I fed Sheba pumpkin each day, and it had no effect on the BSLs.

If you are trying to put weight on Jazzy, I would be looking at higher calorie food rather than higher carb food.

Is higher calorie stuff generally kitten food? I also want to give him less fat and more protein and there was a kitten food i saw on the list that was like that and had higher calories i think...but i dont know if its a doable price yet... still processing all this... but his cholesterol was high back when he was dx and we haven't addressed that at all...and its gotta be fat that does that right?

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

point taken about the insulin

 

[manxcat419]

I hate to say it, but there's so much "nope" in that particular article that I struggled to take it seriously. Newly diagnosed diabetics don't need to be hospitalized for initial regulation - the stress actually makes it more difficult. We don't give insulin just once a day as standard because it just doesn't work etc etc. So I'm going to stick with just the statement about carbs. Now, the thing with carbs and all these studies is that they're generally based on humans initially and then the information is kind of "carried over" to animals. This actually works reasonably well for dogs. But what you have to remember is that humans are omnivores - we're designed to have more carbs in our diet. So, sticking to a healthy human diet, which includes complex carbs, will actually help with glucose control. It works for dogs because they, too, are designed to handle rather more carbs in their diet than cats. Cats...are nothing like humans in this respect. They are not omnivores, but obligate carnivores. So the healthy diet for a cat contains significantly fewer carbs than the healthy diet for a human. And that's where the theory that this vet is basing their statement on falls down. Left to their own devices, cats will naturally choose a diet that contains around 12% carbs...very different from the 45%-65% recommended for humans. When we talk here about higher carb foods working better for some cats, we're usually talking about foods in the 7%-10% range (which is the upper range of their natural diet), not the actual high-carb (20%+) foods. Even the fact that high carb for cats is anything over about 20% is a significant difference between cats and humans - high carb for humans would be 65%+.

If you think about the way we use insulin for cats, that too is very different. A human diabetic might use a long-acting insulin as a basal option, but they always have to then add a secondary, shorter-acting insulin to handle the carbs in a meal. We don't do that with cats. If we were to try to regulate them in the same way that works for humans and the high-carb diet recommended, then we would have to use both types of insulin. Thankfully, because cats thrive on low-carb diets, we don't need to give an extra shot every time they eat and what would be a basal insulin for humans will carry most cats comfortably through the day.

 

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

When we talk here about higher carb foods working better for some cats, we're usually talking about foods in the 7%-10% range (which is the upper range of their natural diet), not the actual high-carb (20%+) foods.

They don't specify how many carbs is "high carb" ...

I wonder if that's where the distinction lies...


We have our own idea of high carb here... but isn't the food they prescribe for diabetic cats more in the medium carb range?

So if when they say "high carb" they mean what we're calling "medium carb"...

And we agree that 7%-10% works better for some cats...

I think they're basically saying the same thing...

The food I was giving my cats before diagnosis, if i did the math right, was like 30% carbs or more (it was one of the hills dry varieties.)

When I googled one of the prescription foods mentioned here earlier, I think it was like in the teens...

If we assume that when they say "high carb fixed formula diet" they're referring to the prescription food vets give to diabetic cats, (because what else would they be recommending?) that falls into the medium range for us...

Most people on here seem to try for 0%-3% carbs...

I think they're just saying don't do that ... I don't think they're saying give them the 30% non-"fixed formula" whatever food...

Know what I mean?

It makes sense in my head... lol...

So I guess it depends what ARE the carbs in the prescription food...


In other words, I *think* when they say "high carb"... the context seems to indicate that they really mean what we call medium carb food...

(this tangent all hinges on what the carbs are in the prescription food, lol, I wish I knew for sure...)


So... if what they're really saying is that medium carb food is good for cats on insulin...

*That* makes sense to me... based on how I feel when my blood sugar is low, I can eat the healthiest most nutritious meal on the planet and still feel terrible because I didn't get enough sugar...

What if that's how my cat feels when I inject him with insulin but the food I give him doesn't have carbs?

I totally agree that *actually* high carb diets for cats don't make sense.

I just also know that it's not natural to inject cats with insulin either...

Yet I am.

I would never go back to a high carb food for my guys... (I didn't even realize that I was ) ...and definitely never go back to dry...

And his numbers are really doing ok right now... we had two days of back to back stress (vet and landscaping) that seemed to shoot his numbers up the next day... but he does seem to be back on track where he was before that now and we have lowered his dose back down to .5 ...

If I do decide he needs it raised back up again, I really think I might consider 7% carbs... based on how well he did last time we did that.

If we go on like this for a few more cycles and I don't see improvement I might give it a try too.

I did just decide to add pumpkin back into the mix for another health issue so maybe wait a few cycles to see how that affects things too because I'm still unclear what that carb situation is... I don't fully understand the differences....yet... lol... between carbs..glycemic index...there's another phrase with glycemic in it ...lol...glycemic load? So it can have carbs and still not really be carby?...lol..because they are processed in a healthier way? yeah I don't get it ...yet.

But yeah for right now, the only change I'm making is the pumpkin.

Just looking for more input from people who have tried the 7% or more carbs just in case I decide to try it.

 

[manxcat419]

We have our own idea of high carb here... but isn't the food they prescribe for diabetic cats more in the medium carb range?

So if when they say "high carb" they mean what we're calling "medium carb"...

And we agree that 7%-10% works better for some cats...

I think they're basically saying the same thing...

Most people on here seem to try for 0%-3% carbs...

You may have a point on the 0-3% not being optimal. I have to admit, in the 4+ years I've had diabetic cats, I've NEVER insisted on 0-3% for them. And, when I first joined here back in 2015, most other people didn't either - that appears to be a newer phenomenon. I follow the Lantus protocol pretty much as written - if a food is under 10% calories from carbs, it's on my list as a possible. And on occasion, I've even snuck in an 11% here and there as a treat. And honestly never seen any difference in numbers over the longer-term. Not when standard daily variations are factored in anyway. Some of the food I give probably is below 3% - I honestly don't recall and I pay it little attention on a daily basis because I know what is and isn't on the acceptable list out of the brands I feed. It may be more of an issue when you haven't quite found the right dose yet...for some cats at least...but it's really not something I've lost any sleep over. Sometimes I think we can do more harm than good (to our own sanity at least) by overthinking these things too much.

Pumpkin should actually be fine - I've used it when needed...and again I've never seen any effect on numbers overall.

 

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

You may have a point on the 0-3% not being optimal. I have to admit, in the 4+ years I've had diabetic cats, I've NEVER insisted on 0-3% for them. And, when I first joined here back in 2015, most other people didn't either - that appears to be a newer phenomenon. I follow the Lantus protocol pretty much as written - if a food is under 10% calories from carbs, it's on my list as a possible. And on occasion, I've even snuck in an 11% here and there as a treat. And honestly never seen any difference in numbers over the longer-term. Not when standard daily variations are factored in anyway. Some of the food I give probably is below 3% - I honestly don't recall and I pay it little attention on a daily basis because I know what is and isn't on the acceptable list out of the brands I feed. It may be more of an issue when you haven't quite found the right dose yet...for some cats at least...but it's really not something I've lost any sleep over. Sometimes I think we can do more harm than good (to our own sanity at least) by overthinking these things too much.

Pumpkin should actually be fine - I've used it when needed...and again I've never seen any effect on numbers overall.

Thanks, that makes me feel a bit better about it, if it comes to that. Hopefully things will keep slowly improving, mostly I am very happy with his progress and just feel bad that he's still underweight but when I asked the vet how long it should take to get him to his ideal weight she said a few months.

So I need to be patient I guess. But so hard to know if its that slow , if what we're doing is working.

 

[manxcat419]

As long as things are moving in the right direction, I would try not to stress it too much. If he was still losing weight, sure then you can worry. But gaining gradually is healthier for him, and should result in less gain of body weight as fat, than gaining too quickly. And his numbers are definitely going in the right direction - you've not had anything over 300 in quite a while now and you're seeing some numbers in normal range, which is great! Just hang in there - what you're doing is working, but his body needs time to recover.

 

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

As long as things are moving in the right direction, I would try not to stress it too much. If he was still losing weight, sure then you can worry. But gaining gradually is healthier for him, and should result in less gain of body weight as fat, than gaining too quickly. And his numbers are definitely going in the right direction - you've not had anything over 300 in quite a while now and you're seeing some numbers in normal range, which is great! Just hang in there - what you're doing is working, but his body needs time to recover.

Thanks so much, that means a lot.

 

[Sybil and Zoe]

I find that interesting about the fiber. I just picked Zoe up from the vet last night after a two day stay. Her BS is not in control and the vet agrees with what I have been saying about suspecting the Vetsulin isnt touching her no matter what dose is given. He bumped her to 6 u from her 3 u and still no difference in her BS. We are going to start her on Lantus. But before I left I was talking about the voracious hunger and how she attacks her food before I can get it all in the bowl. He mentioned the W/D formula because it has fiber. I shot that down because of carbs being too high according to Lisa Pierson. He said to try adding unflavored metamucil to her food, it will slow the absorption of the food and help with her constant hunger. I thought that couldnt be right but what if this article is on to something?

 

[Jasper Blue and Jay]

I find that interesting about the fiber. I just picked Zoe up from the vet last night after a two day stay. Her BS is not in control and the vet agrees with what I have been saying about suspecting the Vetsulin isnt touching her no matter what dose is given. He bumped her to 6 u from her 3 u and still no difference in her BS. We are going to start her on Lantus. But before I left I was talking about the voracious hunger and how she attacks her food before I can get it all in the bowl. He mentioned the W/D formula because it has fiber. I shot that down because of carbs being too high according to Lisa Pierson. He said to try adding unflavored metamucil to her food, it will slow the absorption of the food and help with her constant hunger. I thought that couldnt be right but what if this article is on to something?

I'd definitely try pumpkin for the fiber it does all that too , see if you can find info about pumpkin and diabetes too. I found a lot of interesting thoughts on it.

Maybe the lowest carb wet food is ideal to start them out cause their sugar is so high when they're newly diagnosed... but then if after a while its not working, maybe worth trying a bit more.... I mean we're doing only 3% or less, sometimes were doing lots of chicken and sardines that are 0...and Dr. Lisa says 10% or less so thats kind of a lot of wiggle room if you come from the place of thinking that zero-3 is all that's acceptable like I was.






Hope the lantus works better.

 

[Dusty Bones]

Dusty was on FF from the very beginning after diagnosis... on chicken, chicken/liver, and beef flavors that were in the 2-3% carb range and he quickly went into remission and has stayed there since 2013. The only thing was he was always clogged and had to have MiraLax with all his food. Here recently my civie developed a food allergy to something in FF so I switched them to Weruva. The carb range is 7-8% in their favorite flavors of Mideast Feast and Polynesian BBQ and now Dusty is still doing well plus he no longer needs MiraLax AND my civie no longer has the food allergy. Point being we went from 2-3% carbs to 7-8% and Dusty is still in remission (knock on wood), leaner, and has more energy. I think in the wild cats would get some carbs naturally from eating their prey so some carbs as opposed to zero carbs is still correct. When you get into the 25-30+% carb range of some wet and especially dry foods then you're asking for trouble. It's how Dusty and so many cats ended up here to begin with.

 

[Sybil and Zoe]

I have been using the unflavored metamucil mixed in with her ff or friskies and it seems to have worked quieting her down. She doesnt woof her food down so much and she seems more content. Her BS are a little better but its hard to say since she is bumped to a higher dose.