Stuck in high pinks need advice

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DebG

DebG

Very Active Member
Asking for help with Fritz SS #'s!
I'm doing my best to follow all the do's and don'ts and still not seeing favorable results.I don't like to see him stuck in the pinks,I'm afraid of insulin resistance and ketones. The longer he's in these numbers it doesn't look good for Fritters! Please let me know what ya'll think??
I know this takes time but what do you all think that have been doing this for awhile what do you see from the SS? Appreciate all imput.....
 
Yes, he has pink preshots but the blue midcycle was nice. I think I'd give this dose another cycle, try to get some other numbers (+3/5/7 maybe) and see what that whole mid cycle looks like.

If he doesn't stay in yellows and blue in the middle of the cycle, then maybe increase by 0.25

What is he eating again? How is his asthma?
 
Su
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Yes, he has pink preshots but the blue midcycle was nice. I think I'd give this dose another cycle, try to get some other numbers (+3/5/7 maybe) and see what that whole mid cycle looks like.

If he doesn't stay in yellows and blue in the middle of the cycle, then maybe increase by 0.25

What is he eating again? How is his asthma?
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Sue did you get my reply back to you? I replied from my email!
 
He's feed air chilled organic hormone antibotic free chicken thighs with bone/without bone homemade with Lisa Piersons recipe. Along with one meal substituted with fancy feast classic chicken for a tad bit of carbs.
His asthma is better no steriods since the last time I posted it on his SS. Twice a day inhaler flovent with occasional rescue in place of liquid steriods for now it is under control. I appreciate your help:) I will do the +3,5,7 tonight. Is it ok to feed him one time during the night? I have been. Only on some of the nights I get up and check is gb
 
Please post your reply here. Her responses will be posted here on the message board, so everyone can review and brainstorm, per the forum guidelines.
 
Sad day!!!! Fritz numbers looked great till I had to give him oral steroids last late at 5:00am. I am unable to control his attacks with the inhalers. I can't believe this..... I had such high hopes. All we can do now is get him thru the next 10 days. Five days of doses at night then every other night for 5 nights. Wondering how much insulin I should give him thru the next 10 days?????? If he doesn't seem to be improving off to the vet we will go. From past times the steroids always clear up the mucus and then I'm able to manage with inhalers. This happens every spring and fall...... :(
 
Gee, Deb - you & Fritz are in a rough spot right now; I'm sorry to hear this, as we know that steroids complicate treatment for diabetes, but that Fritz also can't do without them right now.

At this point, I'd say that one of the very best things you could do to help speed Fritz's healing is to start slowly reducing his total daily rations. (He will likely NOT like this much at all, of course!:rolleyes:) But I think it's going to be key for you, and here are three good reasons:

1) Obesity in kitties can actually worsen the asthma and cause the attacks to occur more frequently. (Looked this up in the veterinary literature last night.)
2) Because we do know that the steroids he must be on at present make it harder to effectively treat his diabetes, this underscores the pressing need to start getting that excess weight he's carrying around off of him. (Not only does that 26 lbs. make it harder for his lungs to do their job, it's putting a strain on his heart and other major organ systems as well.)
3) The gradual reduction in his daily rations will really help his meals to work more effectively with his insulin doses, and this will help drive his BG #s downward. (And, again - getting him down to a more normal weight should help quite a bit with his breathing difficulties.)

I know this must feel like rolling a boulder uphill; believe me, it always does in the beginning!

Deb, please forgive me if it sounds like I'm nagging at you about this; I hope you understand that it's just that I feel so sure that you really must take action on his weight problem if he's to get better regulated ... especially in view of his need for ongoing use of steroids. So ... I am here to cheer you on :bighug: --- and am sincerely hoping that Fritz will soon be showing you some better BG#s with some effective, step-by-step dietary changes.
 
A little "before and after"of Bat-Bat:
2012 Bat 18 lbs!.JPG 2015 Bat 11 lbs.jpg
 
No apology necessary!!!! A little history on our food quest to manage his weight. As soon as his weight was rising I took him off all commercial food I did research online and started ordering raw food from Felines Pride back east, she would ship it and I would pick it up at Southwest airline cargo. I was committed to his weight loss. I portion controlled just like I was instructed, walked Fritz and lived with an unhappy kitty for 8 months. He never lost an ounce of weight. I then took Fritz into a vet for his semi yearly check up and was chastised for feeding him raw food she demanded I put him on a prescription diet which I reluctantly did. Fritz ate every prescription diet on the market only to continue to gain no matter how much I limited his food intake. I was so angry with the vets I said NO MORE CARB foods. So I started making my own food from Lisa Piersons recipe. It is nearly impossible to exercise an asthmatic cat when his attacks come from just moving. I try every way to exercise him, he is taken on daily leashed walks out doors. It wasn't until he was diagnosed with diabetes he lost a little over two pounds, I need to weigh him today. Since starting insulin he eats way less food. Before all this he was eating just about 8 ounces of food in a day. No night feedings. Since insulin he eats 5 to 7 ounces. I will slowly start giving him 1.0 ounces 4 times a day. The steroids make him so hungry and thirsty as well as high Bg's.
Once we get control of the asthma attacks we can ramp up the diabetes treatment. Until then my hands are tied, he needs to breathe or it does me no good to treat a dead cat..... :(
Thank you for your thoughts I will do my best to try once again to get his weight down, I'd be thrilled if he could get to 18 pounds. I'll do anything to help my Fritz....
I have an open mind and appreciate all the HELP!!!!
Your comments I highly regard..... !!!
 
Hey Deb, yes you are in a catch 22 with his asthma and steroids working against the diabetes. I agree with Robin that you have got to get some weight off of Fritz and as Robin said, slowly. Maybe when he sees the vet again you can ask them to give you a target for what he should weigh and how many calories you want to shave off now and how to proceed with slowly decreasing those calories to get him to an optimum weight.
In humans steroids can put on weight and perhaps that is the same with cats. Sure wish you had an alternative for the mucus control other than steroids but it is what it is.

It sure sounds like you are committed to getting his weight lower.
The formula for maintaining the correct weight for a cat would be : pounds x 13.5 + 70. I put that out there for you so when he is off the steroids you have an idea of how to scale him back pound by pound. And I want to tell you that my Bubba was 25 pounds before diabetes DX so I know how you feel. And I see where Robin posted before and after of Fat Bat, I mean Bat Bat ( sorry couldn't help that.

We are here for you. :)
 
I need to mention I just ordered rabbit from wholefoods4pets from Mary in Washington state. It is a leaner meat and I am praying for weight loss. I will be feeding him 1 ounce 4 times a day and a tiny snack portion at night to try to keep his glucose stable. I'm trying..... His current diet is Air chilled organic hormone antibiotic free thighs with bone/without bone I follow Lisa recipe. I also substitute one meal feeding him the Fancy Feast Classic chicken for a tad bit of carbs.
 
Wow! Iam impressed tell me exactly what you did and I will do the same for Fritz!!!!
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
Hey Deb, yes you are in a catch 22 with his asthma and steroids working against the diabetes. I agree with Robin that you have got to get some weight off of Fritz and as Robin said, slowly. Maybe when he sees the vet again you can ask them to give you a target for what he should weigh and how many calories you want to shave off now and how to proceed with slowly decreasing those calories to get him to an optimum weight.
In humans steroids can put on weight and perhaps that is the same with cats. Sure wish you had an alternative for the mucus control other than steroids but it is what it is.

It sure sounds like you are committed to getting his weight lower.
The formula for maintaining the correct weight for a cat would be : pounds x 13.5 + 70. I put that out there for you so when he is off the steroids you have an idea of how to scale him back pound by pound. And I want to tell you that my Bubba was 25 pounds before diabetes DX so I know how you feel. And I see where Robin posted before and after of Fat Bat, I mean Bat Bat ( sorry couldn't help that.

We are here for you. :)
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Thank you! I feel so much better I m not alone in this quest :)
 
DebG said:
Thank you for your thoughts I will do my best to try once again to get his weight down, I'd be thrilled if he could get to 18 pounds. I'll do anything to help my Fritz....I have an open mind and appreciate all the HELP!!!! Your comments I highly regard..... !!!
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Oh, I really feel for you, Deb! This must feel like you're really stuck between a rock and a hard place. (Duh! Because right now you are.:rolleyes:)

Since he's eating between 5-7 oz now, I'd start with feeding about 5 to 5.5 oz, then drop it - just 1/4 oz at a time every 5 days or so - until you get him to 4 oz. and see how that works. But get either a tabletop baby scale or one of the digital "mother & baby" step-on models, and weigh him daily while you're doing this, as you want one that measures small increments of pounds, rather than just half or quarter pounds.

@Bobbie And Bubba
Bobbie And Bubba said:
And I see where Robin posted before and after of Fat Bat, I mean Bat Bat
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Good one, Bobbie!!! She certainly was Fat Bat!!!:D
 
I have a very expensive tabletop baby scale that mysteriously stooped working. Hubby is frantically investigating it as I type. So off to the store to buy another one. Hubby was using our scale then subtracting weight after holding Fritz on the scale. But it was off from the baby scale. Thanks!!!!
 
DebG said:
she demanded I put him on a prescription diet which I reluctantly did.
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Wow, this sounds exactly like what happened with Bat-Bat after her first UTI in 2009. There was so much CORN meal in that stinkin' Science Diet prescription "garbage-kibble" that the vet insisted on that Bat-Bat blew up like a balloon - kind of the way livestock cattle do on the feedlot. (Ha, when they say they "finish" the cattle off with corn-based feed, they're not kidding. I remember watching a documentary about that, and one of the vets said that they can only feed them that way for a certain period of time at the end - right before the slaughterhouse - otherwise, the food itself would kill them!:eek:)
 
Oh my word! Good reason to be a vegetarian.... Poor Bat Bat I am so thankful you had a good outcome with that... I won't give up on Fritz we are fighters and with help here we will be ok!
 
Deb, you do what you gotta do! As you said...Fritz needs the steroids, so for now, give the steroids.

As for the dose, let's work on that one day at a time okay? If you let us know what numbers you get, we can help you dose based on that. I'm not sure what effect they'll have on the BG each day, but we can help! Are you able to monitor this weekend? We might be able to help figure out a good dose to keep Fritz safe and in good numbers for the next 10 days over the weekend. :)
 
Robin&BB said:
Wow, this sounds exactly like what happened with Bat-Bat after her first UTI in 2009. There was so much CORN meal in that stinkin' Science Diet prescription "garbage-kibble" that the vet insisted on that Bat-Bat blew up like a balloon - kind of the way livestock cattle do on the feedlot. (Ha, when they say they "finish" the cattle off with corn-based feed, they're not kidding. I remember watching a documentary about that, and one of the vets said that they can only feed them that way for a certain period of time at the end - right before the slaughterhouse - otherwise, the food itself would kill them!:eek:)
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I know, when I think all those years I used Science Diet --thinking I was doing the best for my kitties - ugh!!
Deb - I can see the effect from the steroids with your amps - hope they are helping Fritz breathe better. I dread the beginning of pollen season
 
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Robin&BB said:
No kidding! Poor Fritz - I hope he's feeling a little better today? (Juniper pollen locally has been sky-high for the past 2-3 weeks - everybody around here is complaining about it.)
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It's been pretty cold and rainy here, so we have yet to see it - but I can see the trees budding and grass growing and it's coming!! Murphy has terrible seasonal allergies - so that will be something else I will need to contend with - I will say zyrtec is quite effective
 
Rachel said:
Deb, you do what you gotta do! As you said...Fritz needs the steroids, so for now, give the steroids.

As for the dose, let's work on that one day at a time okay? If you let us know what numbers you get, we can help you dose based on that. I'm not sure what effect they'll have on the BG each day, but we can help! Are you able to monitor this weekend? We might be able to help figure out a good dose to keep Fritz safe and in good numbers for the next 10 days over the weekend. :)
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Rachel yes I am able to monitor Fritz 24 7 as I don't work out of the house till middle of May. I feel fortunate we have our own seasonal roofing business 7 months out of the year we are snowbirds in Arizona our passion is gold prospecting so we hunt for gold all winter, and then May -Sep. we run our roofing business. I do accounting, payroll and part time on the roofs working, so I am with Fritters all the time. He did great last night had me up at 4:00 am I did the gb test give him a small snack and off to bed we both went till 7:30 am. His #'s are high but not as bad as I thought although were only into day 2. I give him 2ml oral steroid am & pm in his food maybe this amount won't affect the #'s too much. He's feeling so much better one small attack which we brought on by trying to play with him trying to get him to chase his toy. Better days are ahead. Thanks for your help :) Please see his SS for his #'s Hope all is well with you!!!!
 
Deb, what fun! It sounds lovely to hunt for gold part of the year! Have you found anything really exciting before?
 
Rachel said:
Deb, what fun! It sounds lovely to hunt for gold part of the year! Have you found anything really exciting before?
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Tons of bullets boring, yes I just things year found a 2 ounce nugget so I belong to the good old boys ouncer club. LOL We love just being outdoors. I walk all day listening to the ground as we use metal detectors. You can say we have GOLD FEVER!!!!
Thank you for asking :)
Can I ask your thoughts on Fritz numbers while on oral steroids. I am pleasantly surprised that his numbers aren't sky rocketing up. I know the #'s are still high so I did a 3.50 dose a few minutes ago, hopet thatwas a good choice. Please offer some guidance want to make sure I do good and not harm to him.
Hope you had a good week.
I am supplementing one meal a day with Fancy Feast Chciken Feast Classic, should I be giving him something different, it's only to add a tad bit of carb as I make his raw food.
 
DebG said:
I know the #'s are still high so I did a 3.50 dose a few minutes ago, hopet thatwas a good choice. Please offer some guidance want to make sure I do good and not harm to him.
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You'll be able to get at least one mid-cycle test in tonight, right?
Always good practice whenever you do a dose increase.:)
 
I think maybe his numbers aren't spiking today because he's feeling/ breathing better from getting some good relief via his asthma meds.
You're doing just fine, btw ... we all know that dealing with a sugar-kitty is kind of like learning a new dance - and it takes awhile to learn the crazy dance steps, that's for sure!:bighug:
 
Robin&BB said:
I think maybe his numbers aren't spiking today because he's feeling/ breathing better from getting some good relief via his asthma meds.
You're doing just fine, btw ... we all know that dealing with a sugar-kitty is kind of like learning a new dance - and it takes awhile to learn the crazy dance steps, that's for sure!:bighug:
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Yes is that +3,5,7,9
 
I think that will be fine. You don't have to get all those tests in unless you're just feeling like it. Maybe grab a +3 or so and then, if he is dropping low already, keep testing. Basically you want to be sure he doesn't drop too low (though he probably won't...it's just good practice for an increase as Robin said). If he DOES seem to be dropping low, post on Health for advice. Not that we wouldn't help but we might not be around. There is almost always someone on Health to help out. :)

I agree with Robin. I think he is feeling better which is helping stress levels stay low...which keeps BG lower.
 
Getting +3, +5 & +7 would probably be a good way to go tonight. If, say, (just for example) for some reason you saw your kitty's BG # had dropped quite a bit by +3, you might also want to check him at +4 just too see whether or not he's going to drop fast or slow, or stay level for a while. (In a way, getting some mid-cycle tests close together is almost like a little mini-curve, and the added bonus is that it just gives you that much more data in your spread sheet to refer to when you have to make dosing decisions later on.)
 
Excellent guidance! Thank heavens for the ladies here!
My goodness I feel like this new dance were doing is causing me to have two left feet. Lol there is so much to this diabetes.
Do we ever get to the end of the song? It's amazing how each night I do the mid cycle tests I haven't had to set my alarm some how I just wake up exact at the right time or minutes before. Must be the diabetes angel.... have a nice evening ladies. I'll post his numbers in the morning. May your kitties do well tonight too.... oh how we love our kitty cats
 
@Rachel - Ha, we just cross posted. @DebG - Rachel is right: You really don't have to get all those tests tonight ... but if you're up for it this would certainly help to have the additional info to help you see how Fritz is processing the insulin. (You're in AZ right now, is that correct? If so, we're in the same time zone. Just so you know, I will probably be around until 11:30pm or so before I konk out for the night -maybe even later since Bat's already started deep-diving with her BG#s at +2.:rolleyes:)
 
I'm actually in Washington for the summer. Head back to Az 1st of October, we are on the same time zone.I'm assuming deep diving isn't good? Not sure what to make if that? What am I actually wanting to see each cycle? I really don't understand much of this yet. Although I spend a lot if time just reading and trying to learn from all the posts on here.I am picking up bits and pieces every time I'm on here.Is it that were looking for #'s lower than 250most of the cycle? Or let's say amps is high 300's slight drops till he nadirs than slight increase till next dose?
 
DebG said:
I'm assuming deep diving isn't good? Not sure what to make if that?
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"Deep-diving" or ""shark-hunting" refers to kitties whose BG#s drop fast & hard, which can land them in the hypoglycemia zone (we don't want them spending time in the hypo-zone - it's actually harder on their bodies than dealing with high BG #s). Bat's just reacting a little too well to Lantus is all - she should level out soon. But until she does, when her BG# drops too low for comfort, I "steer" it back up with a little bit of her Fancy Feast rations - anywhere from 1/8th to 1/4 can. Then I re-ck. the BG # to make sure it's rising, If not, I have to keep steering until her # is in a safe range and stays up there.
So ... yeah, I may be up later than I'd prefer tonight.;)

Have you read through all the yellow "stickies" at the top of the ProZinc forum? In a nutshell, when you're new at this, you don't want to shoot insulin if the # is under 200. (Which type meter are you using? Human meter or the pet-calibrated AlphaTrak?) If you're not quite at shootable # at AMPS/PMPS time, you can try withholding food (stalling) for 15-20 minutes & then retest the BG - often anticipating a meal will naturally raise your kitty's BG. The renal threshold - the point at which glucose starts spilling into a kitty's urine stream - is generally estimated to be at anywhere from about 250 to 300 (can vary with the individual cat). So the goal is to get kitty's #s down to where he's not spending his time at #s above 250, and later on, what we all hope for is that we can eventually get our cats BGs down into the BG range of a normal cat (remission). This can take time, so we often end up encouraging one another to put on our "patience pants!"

During a cycle, you want to see a nice dip (think of a good smile) around mid-cycle (rather than something that would look like a swan dive off a cliff:rolleyes:), then a rise in BG as you get closer to the next shot time. Around the +2 to +3 range you usually see a spike in BG from the pre-shot meal, but then later in the cycle you should see the drop (nadir) happen. Two nights ago, for example, we saw that Fritz had a very nice drop in his cycle!:)
 
@Robin&BB haha we did cross post!

@DebG Robin is also correct. It's not necessary to get all those tests if he doesn't go low. However, if you're feeling up for it, that data would be super helpful. We love data here! It would help us see how the insulin works so we can help you more.

Robin gave you some good info. Basically, we want to have that good smile curve. It's good to have numbers under around 250 or so...we consider that the renal threshold so the pancreas heal while under that number.

Why not spend some time looking at people's SS? Check out the remission thread especially since you can see how people progressed as they got into remission. The stickies Robin mentioned are a great tool, and the SS of others is another great tool!

I'll probably be heading to bed soon but I'll check back in the AM!
 
Sleep good! Sweet dreams of well kitty's.
I will spend time studying the SS of others & the stickys
 
Sounds good, Deb. Please try not to let all this overwhelm you ... we all know how much learning about treating your kitty's diabetes can make your head swim... trust me, we've all been there, so we all can empathize with anything you're feeling right now. The good news is: You're a great cat-mom, one who is obviously committed to restoring Fritz to good health, and we're all here to help you on your journey! :bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
DebG said:
No apology necessary!!!! A little history on our food quest to manage his weight. As soon as his weight was rising I took him off all commercial food I did research online and started ordering raw food from Felines Pride back east, she would ship it and I would pick it up at Southwest airline cargo. I was committed to his weight loss. I portion controlled just like I was instructed, walked Fritz and lived with an unhappy kitty for 8 months. He never lost an ounce of weight. I then took Fritz into a vet for his semi yearly check up and was chastised for feeding him raw food she demanded I put him on a prescription diet which I reluctantly did. Fritz ate every prescription diet on the market only to continue to gain no matter how much I limited his food intake. I was so angry with the vets I said NO MORE CARB foods. So I started making my own food from Lisa Piersons recipe. It is nearly impossible to exercise an asthmatic cat when his attacks come from just moving. I try every way to exercise him, he is taken on daily leashed walks out doors. It wasn't until he was diagnosed with diabetes he lost a little over two pounds, I need to weigh him today. Since starting insulin he eats way less food. Before all this he was eating just about 8 ounces of food in a day. No night feedings. Since insulin he eats 5 to 7 ounces. I will slowly start giving him 1.0 ounces 4 times a day. The steroids make him so hungry and thirsty as well as high Bg's.
Once we get control of the asthma attacks we can ramp up the diabetes treatment. Until then my hands are tied, he needs to breathe or it does me no good to treat a dead cat..... :(
Thank you for your thoughts I will do my best to try once again to get his weight down, I'd be thrilled if he could get to 18 pounds. I'll do anything to help my Fritz....
I have an open mind and appreciate all the HELP!!!!
Your comments I highly regard..... !!!
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Dear Deb,
you've got a lot to deal with at the moment.
I had an asthmatic cat Pippin (and still have his brother Rocky) and it was very difficult do deal with him as he was born to a feral mother and he was so terribly nervous and absolutely scared of everything!
His asthma was never really confirmed properly as the vet wanted him to have an investigative procedure like biopsy of his lungs to make sure it was indeed asthma and not a heart condition but it would involve travelling to a specialist and putting him under a lot of stress and I was so nervous about it all so we decided to treat his asthma with a steroid inhaler and bronchodilator. It worked quite well but he still had cough specially when he started purring! His appetite was usually good. Unfortunately I had to rehome him. He went to live with my neighbours and it was a perfect arrangement: he was the only pet in a large house with a lot of land to go hunting! We had to change his meds because it took weeks for him to accept his new owners and he was switched to oral steroids. He was always a perfect build, never overweight. After a year of a perfect life with my neighbours he died from what seemed to be a heart attack at the age of 8.
I'm telling you this story to highlight a possibility that Fritz might have another health issue which prevent him from losing weight. It looks like you're doing everything you can to reduce his weight with no success. Is there no question about the asthma diagnosis? Did he have a biopsy and other investigation done? What makes his asthma worse?
I'm thinking of you and your struggles with gorgeous Fritz, you're doing so fantastically well with his diet! I'm really angry that vets still insist that we use dry kibble for our pets, it's insane!
I have a dog (7 years old) and a cat (12 years old) and they have been fed raw species-appropriate diet for the last 5 years!
I hope that you will start seeing some results soon.
Take care, best regards from fellow FD caregiver
Marlena:cat:
 
Marlena,
When Fritz was a kitten he had wheezing so I took him in and he was treated for infection. As the years progressed he started coughing. I took him to the University of Washington teaching university and they did all the tests that could help determine if it was asthma, they did say it was really hard to specifically say it was asthma but it was suspect. I started him on Flovent 110 and albertoul for rescue for a few years he did well. The worst times were spring and fall he would have flare ups requiring oral steroids.(Prednisolone). I was managing his asthma until along came FD the very day I started him on insulin his asthma flared up I tried with just the inhalers but he got worse. So back on oral steroids short term.
I was wondering the same about his weight. He has lost over three pounds since Feb 11th. I'm hoping it is because the insulin is helping and not the diabetes.... He is eating a lot less food and so far only a few times meowing for food.
I took him to the vet yesterday because since Feb 12th he has had black smelly poo. Of course after his vet visit yesterday and a plan the little stinker had a almost normal poo. I am sooooo thankful as I really didn't want all the testing it would involve to eliminate all the things it could be.
So for now we continue to wait for Fritz to work the insulin.
I appreciate your encouragement and sharing your experience with your fur babies! I am hoping that some day I can also pay it forward:cat:
 
LOL!!! Me too the vet just called to check up on him. When I told him he said way to go Fritz you show all of us that you know what it takes to stay out of the vet clinic. We both laughed and agreed to see the next coupl of poo's and hope it's behind us.
Now to focus back on his #'s. Today is the first day I start giving 1ml at night of the oral steroid, so I am hoping his numbers will reflect that.:rolleyes:
 
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