Still weak in the back end?

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JenM

JenM

Member Since 2013
Over the past 6 months or so, during Tink's pre-diagnosed but likely diabetic stage, the majority of weight he lost was noticeable in his back end. I've had this happen to other "older" kitties, as their hips start going out. However, not that I know the majority of Tink's symptoms were NOT old age, but more likely caused by the diabetes (since most things are now improved - playfulness, etc)... I am curious why he is still so weak in the back end. Six months ago he could easily jump up to the bathroom sink or onto my bed. Now he struggles, even with half that distance. He can stand up on his back legs, but tends to "pull" himself up, rather than thrust with his back legs.

More concerning to me, is that I MAY just be imagining it... but it seems like it's getting slightly worse the last few days. Even the jump from a chair to my bed causes him to pause and think about it for a minute. His energy level is good. He runs and plays with the other cats, and had climbed to the top of our 6' tall cat tree this past weekend. It's just the actual launch that he has a problem with.

Is this a common thing with diabetes? He was in DKA when he was diagnosed, and I think had been for a few days as his muscle mass took a huge hit. He's slowly putting weight back on, but seems stuck around 11lb (he was about 10.5 at the vet). He's not a huge cat, but I'd like to see him either get to 12lb or take some of that tummy flab and somehow glue it to his back end. :lol: Anyway... just wondering if this is normal, if it improves, how I can help, etc? My last cat that had this problem didnt really get to this point till about the age of 15. Glucosamine did help - is that ok to give him, with the diabetes? I can't imagine it would hurt anything - except the glucosamine treats I used to use are probably high carb. Even so... will two treats, twice a day hurt? (They were Zukes Hip Action cat treats)
 
Hi Jen!

JenM said:
take some of that tummy flab and somehow glue it to his back end
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Oh, I totally understand what you mean! My Papaya did the same weight loss before the diabetes was diagnosed but still kept the tummy. Frankly I wouldn't mind moving MY flab to better places :lol:

Have you been giving a methyl-B12 (methylcobalamin) supplement? When the back end weakness is nerve damage caused by the high blood sugar, a methyl-B12 supplement along with regulated blood sugar levels can help turn things around. I just get a human type (make sure there is no xylitol listed in the ingredients) and break the pills into my cat's food, but some folks around here order online to get a kind specifically for cats.

My cat has been really hard to regulate, so the B12 has taken longer to help, but she was at one point walking right down on her hocks and she could barely do that for very far, but now she is happily walking back up on her "tiptoes" like she should and doesn't tire out so quickly.
 
Another vote here for methyl B12 supplementation.

It seemed to really help with Bertie's neuropathy, even though his blood glucose levels remained high after dx for a long, long time. It only took a couple of months to see a radical improvent in him. Excercise also helps the healing process, so encouraging the cat to play and use those back legs is beneficial.

Glucosamine is fine. Some of us here give glucosamine/chondroitin supplements such as 'Cosequin'.

There could also be other causes of the back leg weakness (I think potassium deficiency is one cause...?). Or could it be that your cat has had an injury? A fall maybe...?

Here's hoping your kitty is feeling better soon.
 
Elizabeth and Bertie said:
There could also be other causes of the back leg weakness (I think potassium deficiency is one cause...?)
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I was just going to mention the potassium deficiency as well. My civvie cat was just recently diagnosed with CKD, so I have been reading up on everything I can about it. Check out this link, and it also mentions that cats with diabetes may have lower potassium levels: http://www.felinecrf.org/potassium.htm#weak_back_legs
You might have some bloodwork done to check Tink's levels, and talk with your vet about supplements, if needed. Scroll up on that link to see the goal for the potassium level in bloodwork. Always talk with your vet before starting any supplements. :smile:
 
Thanks folks. Sorry for asking the question then not checking in. :) Life's been busy!

Tink did have low potassium levels AT the vet - part of why he was there so long, vet wanted to keep him on the IV drip, which contained potassium. Is there a supplement for that as well, or are they supposed to get it from their food?

I do HAVE a b12 injectable (for my goats, which is actually given orally on them... I think it's meant for cattle)... wonder if that would be usable? Probably easier to just get some human stuff.

He seems to be somewhat better since I initially posted - probably because he's been exercising. It's pretty funny watching him and our kitten take turns chasing each other. Our kitten likes to chase the puppy too, even though she's already 5x his size! Crazy cat.

I REALLY need to work on finding a vet around here. I took one of my civvies in because he has bladder crystals again (last time was a couple years ago). Vet wanted to keep him overnight to get urine. Um, NO. I'm not going to pay you $150 to get urine from my cat. UGH! He DID give me some antibiotics and SD c/d to hopefully break up the crystals. He seemed to be fine last night - not going to the box every 30seconds like he was on Sunday... but I still haven't been able to observe him much, due to life getting in the way. Will be able to spend some time with him tonight and if he's still having a hard time, will take him to my GOOD vet (who unfortunately is almost an hour away) tomorrow.
 
Hi Jen,
I would definitely have his potassium level checked. There are supplements, but with potassium, you don't want to supplement without the vet checking first. Potassium affects muscle function, and a low level, for Bob, was the cause of overall muscle weakness, mostly seen in his rear legs. Once his K level returned to normal, the muscle weakness was no longer there.

Keep in mind that the heart is "muscle". That's the reason you don't supplement without the vet testing. Because too much, or too high a level can have adverse effects on the heart.

Bob got his supplements via sub-q fluid treatments, for weeks until his level reached "normal". Someone already mentioned that low potassium can happen with diabetic cats in general, and I've also read that can be seen in cats that have been through a DKA episode - something that Bob also went through.

When his blood work was done just prior to his passing, when it appears his diabetes returned with a vengeance, his potassium was even lower than when he went thru DKA two years earlier.

If you have any labs results, see what his "K" level was at that time.

Carl
 
The b-12 injectable needs to be methyl b-12 not cyano b-12. The methyl version passes over into the nervous system where as the cyano version does not. Better to make sure you get the right one.

On the civie and the crystals, you might want to read this great writeup by vet Dr. Lisa Pierson on Urinary Tract Health.
 
Thanks for that link. Looks like the preferred diet is basically the same as for FD, so that's easy! :) I've already got everyone eating at least half wet food now... so we'll continue weaning off dry until it's gone completely. In the meantime, the kibble I am feeding is EVO, which claims to be 7% carbs (though I know this doesn't address the "water" factor). Tink really seems to be the only one who wont yet eat wet exclusively (my other 3 are PIGS and will eat pretty much anything), so as soon as my wag.com order of Wellness cans comes in, I'll just cut dry for the rest of them.

Speaking of... for the higher end foods (wellness, weruva, etc) - have ya'll looked at wag.com? I saved almost 20% over what I can get it for in my area - and it's coming straight to my house in just a few days. If you DO check it out and decide to order... use coupon code JENM1648 and you'll get 20% off (plus I'll get a $5 referral credit! ;-) ). Probably not worth it for Friskies and such since the big box stores carry it cheap... but the high end brands, it seems to be quite a bit cheaper.
 
Currently trying to convince him that canned food is edible.
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Love this part of your signature! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I know exactly what you mean, since I had to persuade my foster cat Wink of the thing in regards to dry vs wet. He did finally "get it" but it took time and lots of transitioning tips. His favorite was crumbled Halo Liv-a-little freeze dried chicken on top of his food. I swear, sometimes he would only eat half his food so that I would crumble more freeze dried chicken on top. ohmygod_smile
 
He is still a little high at times and I worry the OTJ won't stick over time. How about stopping the EVO dry for a while and see if that brings him down into more green and no numbers over 130?
 
Tink's biggest barrier to wet food is that he insists on variety (which is weird, because in the past I've always fed the same ol' kibble and everyone ate it). What he gobbled down one day, he tries to bury the next day. ohmygod_smile It SEEMS that a combination of Weruva Paw Lickin Chicken, Wellness Chicken, and Wellness Beef & Chicken - with a little Nature's Instinct Venison mixed in here and there... is the magic combination. :roll:

He's really only eating about 1/8c of Evo a day, max. And just a few bites at a time. I will certainly get him off it in the near future... but for right now (since I just ordered two cases of Wellness) I dont want to push my luck food-wise with him. He can be a real stinker. I'll continue reducing the amount little by little though for sure. I just do NOT want to go back to syringe feeding, and although we're holding steady weight-wise... we're not seeing any increase yet, so I dont want to push it. I'm just glad my civvies are all piggies and will eat anything. If I had four finicky cats that "only like" a handful of (likely different) foods... I'd go nuts! :lol:
 
I like your plan, Jen, as long as he doesn't go in the 200 range or very close to it. Hope he likes the Wellness and gets back on track. Have you tried crunching up some of the dry and sprinkling it on the wet? Also, if you try getting a test an hour or so after he eats, that will give you an indication of how much his pancreas is contributing. If he goes down in double digits, that is much better than staying in the 100s all cycle.

This is a huge gain he has made to get off insulin. You don't want to lose it.
 
So, due to his numbers continuing to creep up last week, I went ahead and pulled the EVO Sunday morning. So far, it seems to be helping, at least for his PM numbers. I find it a bit odd that his AM & PM numbers are so different though, since he nibble food throughout the day and night. He definitely gets up to eat several times throughout the night - and since his food is usually almost gone when I get home, I know he is eating throughout the day as well. He's never been one to eat all his food in one sitting. He's a snacker.

Perhaps this weekend I'll try to test him more frequently to get an idea of what his numbers are really doing throughout the day. I just hate to poke him more than necessary - but it would be nice to know.

As of now, knock on wood, he's still enjoying the Wellness (though I have to change flavors with each can - if I feed the same flavor twice in a row he loses interest). Luckily with 4 cats, I'm finding that one large can is used per feeding, so that works out well flavor wise, and also allows him to have his "freshly opened, room temperature" food that he prefers. He's not nearly as interested if it comes from the fridge - even if I warm it up first. :roll:

So... now that we're 100% canned... how much do I really need to feed?? Tink is currently 11.6 lb, which is a pretty good weight for him. I dont think I would want him to get over 12 or under 11. He's 10yrs old. My civvies are:
1. Hopalong, who is disabled (deformed front legs, hops around like a bunny, stands up like a kangaroo), age 10. Recovering from urine crystals currently - this also happened once about 4 years ago. Currently 14.8 lb - should probably be 12 - maybe 13, though some of it is muscle due to his deformity (his back end is SUPER strong and muscular), but he's definitely a chunky monkey.
2. Venus, 2yrs old, also overweight though I haven't weighed her. Probaby 12lb or so - hers is mostly tummy flab. She has pretty severe flea allergies and is working on growing hair back on her hind end (though I'm wondering if some of this might be a diet allergy, the canned food may help us determine this).
3. Tarzan the crazy kitten (8mo). This little guy is a super long and lean kitty - MUCH different from my other furballs. He's probably 7lb soaking wet and will eat his own food and the other's if they let him. He chases the puppy and occassionally the humans too. ohmygod_smile

They are all indoor only and fixed. I'm currently feeding one 14oz can of Wellness between the 4 of them, twice a day - so each is getting about 7oz of Wellness. Most of the canned foods suggest 1oz per lb of body weight, per day - but that seems like an AWFUL lot of food - each cat would eat nearly an entire large can per day! Thoughts?
 
Hi Jen,

Yes, I think a curve might be a good idea - just to give you an idea of what is happening overall.

I like this easy recipe for how much to feed. I think the credit should go to Carl and Bob.

20-30 calories per pound of ideal body weight, per day. That will keep a healthy cat at its ideal weight. The range of calories is dependent upon a few factors, one of which would be level of activity.

So your thinner more active guy might need more than your sedate heavier ones.
 
ECID. Every Cat is Different. I weigh all 3 of mine twice a week and average the weights. Then, food intake is adjusted up or down as needed. This Body Condition Score chartmay give you an idea of how your cats fall within the spectrum of overweight, ideal weight, underweight.

One formula is about 15-20 calories per pound + 70 to maintain weight. Less to lose weight. More to gain weight.

My 10 pound 8 ounce sugardude Wink gets about 6 ounces a day, sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less depending on his weight gain or loss.

My 12 pound 3 ounce civie Monet also gets about 6 ounces a day. He gains too much weight on more than this. He used to be 16 1/2 pounds, so I did a gradual weight loss plan with him and took a year to get him down to his ideal weight.

My little 7 pound civie Delta is getting about 5 ounces a day. That is up from her former 4.5 ounces because she had lost a bit of weight and needs to gain a bit more.

Yes, the cat food cans always recommend way too much food for kitties. Being overweight is not good for kitties, causing various health problems so I've been trying to keep mine at their idea weights.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
So your thinner more active guy might need more than your sedate heavier ones.
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:lol: Sedate is an understatement! Hmm... actually... so is "heavier". :-D Walking to the food bowl is about the extent of physical exhertion Hoppy will tolerate these days.

Though in all seriousness, I'm shocked at the playfulness I'm seeing lately in Tink... so maybe the diet change will get them all a bit more active. Not being 15degrees outside might help too. Everybody (myself included) spends most of their time curled up in blankets. 100+ yr old houses just dont hold heat very well!
 
Thank you both for the info. I'm glad to hear that 7oz is MUCH more reasonable than the 12 or so oz. recommended on the can. Though, now looking at the can, it's actually 12.5oz and it says to feed half a can per day for a 6-8lb cat... still... sounds a bit high as I'm guessing a half can will be sufficient for my 10-12 pounders. I guess it was other brands that were saying an ounce per pound.

Oh... also curious. So, I have always fed all the cats together, on different levels of the cat tree (to keep it mostly out of dog's reach). They've always eaten twice/day. However, Tink has always eaten on the top tier of the cat tree and leaves much of his food for later. The other cats have always respected that. UNTIL NOW. Crazy Tarzan will eat ANYONE'S food - including mine if it's left unattended! So... for example, this morning, Hoppy didn't eat ALL of his food. I just left it, but I'm sure Tarzan will be the one to eat it... making it difficult to know how much Hoppy (or anyone for that matter) is really eating. Do you all offer then remove? Or do you just feed and leave, and adjust if necessary when someone starts losing/gaining weight? I typically feed right before I leave in the morning (though I could do it slightly earlier) and again around bedtime (though I really SHOULD do it a bit earlier, to make it closer to 12hrs apart - I go to bed pretty early though, so it's only about a 2hr difference).
 
JenM said:
Oh... also curious. So, I have always fed all the cats together, on different levels of the cat tree (to keep it mostly out of dog's reach). They've always eaten twice/day. However, Tink has always eaten on the top tier of the cat tree and leaves much of his food for later. The other cats have always respected that. UNTIL NOW. Crazy Tarzan will eat ANYONE'S food - including mine if it's left unattended! So... for example, this morning, Hoppy didn't eat ALL of his food. I just left it, but I'm sure Tarzan will be the one to eat it... making it difficult to know how much Hoppy (or anyone for that matter) is really eating. Do you all offer then remove? Or do you just feed and leave, and adjust if necessary when someone starts losing/gaining weight? I typically feed right before I leave in the morning (though I could do it slightly earlier) and again around bedtime (though I really SHOULD do it a bit earlier, to make it closer to 12hrs apart - I go to bed pretty early though, so it's only about a 2hr difference).
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I have 6 civies and 1 sugar-kitty (Rumpelteazer). Feeding time is the craziest time of day. :roll:

Rumpelteazer will eat ALL of my civies' food if available. In the beginning I tried free-feeding, but she would push the others out of the way and gobble up their food....civies would walk away and let her eat their food....wimps :lol: Soooo...RumpelT eats in a separate room with the door closed until civies are finished. Since civies like to 'savor the flavor' this could take up to an hour. RumpelT eats her food in a matter of seconds....nom...nom...nom. :roll:

Whatever civies don't finish, I pick up and save for later, before I let RumpelT out. She then becomes the kitty-vacuum and cleans up any 'crumbs' civies knocked off of their plates. :lol:

This process happens three times a day at my house. After RumpelT's AMPS test + after nadir (+5) test or lunch + After RumpelT's PMPS test.

I don't know if this helps you, but I thought it might give you an idea on how to deal with multiple kitties to feed.
 
I worry about his numbers.. this isn't a strong remission as he is showing mainly blue and not as much green as we like. What kind of wellness is it? Its the ones labelled grain free right?

Or maybe you need to start shooting a small amount when he is over 150.

Wendy
 
You feed to meet your schedule needs and the needs of your kitties. Since I have 2 "Hoovers" that make their food disappear in two minutes flat, I meal feed, 4 times a day. Sometimes, the meals are only 1 hour or so apart, sometimes, they are more like 3-4 hours apart. It all depends on what my day has on tap. On days I work, they meals are close together. On days off, the meals are spread farther apart.

If free feeding isn't working out for you, then try the meal feeding for a while.

I actually had to teach Wink to meal feed. At the shelter, there was always dry food out for the cats. When I brought him home, I needed to isolate him and do a slow introduction, so this worked out well to try to get him switched over to meal feeding. It wasn't easy, because at the same time, I was also trying to transition him from dry to low carb wet.

I still end up putting his food dish down first, and then prepping the other cats food. This gives him time to eat some, and then he will guard his food and growl at the other kitties to leave him alone to finish. I still occasionally, stand around to guard his dish, so the other kitties do not push him away from his food dish. ohmygod_smile
 
Wendy&Tiggy said:
I worry about his numbers.. this isn't a strong remission as he is showing mainly blue and not as much green as we like. What kind of wellness is it? Its the ones labelled grain free right?

Or maybe you need to start shooting a small amount when he is over 150.

Wendy
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I agree I'd like to see numbers a bit lower... but he hasn't been over 150 since 11/24. I might consider shooting "a drop" as was previously suggested (maybe when he's over 135 or something?), once I do a curve (hopefully this weekend) and see what he's doing throughout the day.

I'm feeding Wellness GF - chicken or chicken & beef with other flavors mixed in here and there to keep him from getting bored (which he does VERY easily with wet food). Both of those are 4% carbs, though I'm now realizing a few of the flavors are 6%, so I'll have to remember to watch that. Thinking about it now (thanks to this conversation), I think during his greens, he was eating a lot more Weruva which is only 3%... wonder if that 1% could cause the somewhat higher blues.

For the past couple days, he's finally been actually FINISHING all his food. This might bring up a new concern. Up till now, he's been eating it throughout the day (he's locked in my room when I am not there to put his food up, so the piggies dont eat it) and there's usually a little left by the next feeding. I feed his leftovers to the civvies (cuz they'll eat anything) and give him a fresh serving. Well, NOW for the past three or four feedings, he's cleaned his bowl within a few hours. It's licked clean well before the next feeding. During the day, that's fine (though I wonder what it's doing to his levels... he is typically lower in the evenings). However, at night... this means the Bean doesn't sleep. :shock: Last night he woke me up around 2am protesting an empty bowl, and it was closer to midnight the night before. I gave him some Weruva each time, as it's what was open in the mini fridge in my room (I'm a foster home, so we have to have a secured fridge for meds and such). Anyway... while he needs to put on weight/mass, I'm not too worried... but he has always been on the "fluffy" side :lol: and I dont want to let him get that way again. I guess we'll just keep weighing and maybe try to do 3 smaller feedings a day (I can do 7am, around 4pm, and 9:30pm or so - at least most days) instead of just two.

Might need to start locking my disabled civvie up to eat too though, with Tarzan the Pirhanna on the loose! He was trying to eat a dryer sheet yesterday. :lol: He's crazy I tell ya. CRAZY!
 
Hey, I'm a big fan of those just before bed feedings! ;-) Splitting up there dinner portion into two separate meals, means I might actually get to sleep for 6 hours or so before the kitties started walking all over me to get their first breffis.
 
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