Some thoughts on SS if anyone has time

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RobbiesMom

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OK not as much info as I'd like but we are just one week on the 5.00 2x day shots - and I'm not happy at all with the results got some blues in the beginning but ... I don't know - take a look if you can
He doesn't seem to be feeling great - I think the constipation is still an issue for him - we are probably starting the Cisapride tomorrow - have to call the vet.
 
Yes, the numbers looked better at first, Ellen. But if he is not feeling well again, that could be a big factor. I wish you could figure out something that would work for his constipation!
 
The first 5 days on 5.0 looked okay. The last two, not so much. It looks like a duration issue most days, then he throws you a "normal" looking cycle like the AM one on the 23rd. In general, it looks like he isn't getting more than 10 hours out of it though.
I'm hoping this is mostly due to his digestive issues. Why don't they make "Geritol" for cats?
Carl
 
Hope the cispiride starts to work on Robbie. How much miralax are you giving him per day? I give copper about 1/8tsp 2xday and works great. My other cat (non FD, but anal gland problems) 1/8tsp 1xday. He is only 8lbs kitty vs. copper a 16lb kitty.

Hope to see some better numbers for you soon. Know it has got to be frustrating seeing him constipated!

lori
 
ellen, what's the protocol you use with PZI? what i mean is, with the L insulins, after 3 days on a dose that isn't getting you into greens, you would increase the dose. i don't know if that's the same for the P insulins, but it seems logical to me. i've asked before and i'm not clear there even is a protocol for the P insulins. he could be developing tolerance to the insulin as a dose is held. i think if i were you, i'd consider a couple of options. well, 3 that i can think of off the top of my head.

1. if you're not seeing green numbers by the time you've had 6 doses at one amount, increase by .25u. and then repeat that process every 6 doses. if you're seeing greens, delay time between increases to see what it does, but if he starts going up in overall numbers again, don't hesitate to increase the dose.

2. switch to a longer-duration insulin. however, if you do this, PLEASE don't restart at .5u or 1u. he clearly needs a dose somewhere around where he is right now or more. for whatever reason, people seem to want to start over and that just puts the cat in high numbers even longer. remember, your goal numbers are 120 or less for him.

3. reduce the frequency of P dosing. instead of shooting every 12 hours, try going to every 8 or 10 hours. that's a curse on sleep, however, and hard on many people to monitor. you might get the same results without staying up all night if you just switched to a L insulin because they have longer duration. Lantus has the studies behind with the highest OTJ rate - so i'd go there, but i think lev is fine as well. if he were mine, i'd try this first because i've seen how many cats do well on Lantus. you could still chat with your friends here, even if you use a different insulin.

anyway, i saw your plea for people to look at his ss and wanted to respond. i understand how discouraging it is to not see good numbers. i'll just remind you (since i had mental blocks on the dose size, i assume others might too) that the number to focus on is his blood glucose. i tell myself this daily. his dose amount is almost irrelevant if it gets him into good numbers. i tell myself this one as well! Robbie may have a little bit of iaa, or he may just be developing glucose toxicity because he is staying at too high of numbers for too long. the solution for both of those is more insulin and not holding doses too long. if he does have iaa, you don't really need to test him to figure it out because iaa is self-limiting. you just give enough insulin and eventually it breaks. if he gets up to 7u and you're seeing the same patterns, at that point i'd probably do the iaa/acro tests. for me, it was better to know than not. but at 5u, i think it still could be glucose toxicity from dose holding. in fact, there is one cat (infrequent poster) who is getting 10u doses who is negative for all the high dose conditions - she's obese, however. if robbie's overweight that could be playing a role in this.

for what it's worth, those are some options i can think to suggest. good luck, ellen, i do know how discouraging it is. send me a pm if you want more help - i'm not on that much anymore.
 
thanks gang as you may notice from my infrequent posts my work life is all consuming this time of year. I'm at the office now and it's 11:13 pm on a Tuesday and I'll be here for a couple more hours and I was in at 9am... SO
answers to some questions not in order but best I can do
Cisapride arrived TODAY - some confusion with the new girls at the vets office - last visit I said "yes lets put him on it" vet says - girls at front desk will put the order in - I ask them "what do I need to do?" and they say 'well call you when it's in' I go home, Robbie has HORRIBLE reaction to the enema and I call vets office as they are closing and say "what do I do and can he start cisapride asap?" I hear back "Cisapride starts in a week" so I figure they've ordered it - I call a week later and am told "oh, you need to call this pharmacy at this number and order and pay for it we sent in the script" HUH??? Well, I called - place is in NJ nice as can be - rushed it UPS and 30 days worth only cost me (with shipping) $41 - not too horrible. Said if it works and I go on it long term that 60 and 90 day bottles are even less - OK. Good. He has NOT started it yet but I will be giving it to him on July 4th and hoping for a Large BANG - he's gotta be pretty uncomfortable again the last really GOOD poop he had was almost a week ago - he goes SOME every day but certainly not enough.
Miralax - he is getting 3x 8th tsp. a day - some times I've even put another 8th in a "snack" cause I'm desperate - he's also getting 2x a day lactulouse 2.5 mg. - he should be pooping his brains out pardon the expression but really - he should be.
Catitol... I wish... :-D
Our Vet wants to see him next weekend or early next week for a blood work up and check his ... oh, dear my brains stopped functioning the test that I can never spell that gives the long term blood glucose number... anyway - doing that God I can't remember it... said to up to the 5.00 till than. Vet also feels we have not pushed the Prozinc to a final number yet - says he'd go to 7 before really giving up on it - but wants each increase to be for 2-3 weeks and he's only increasing by .5 pretty much. I went from 4 to 4.5 on my own so we than went to 5.00 - we'll see. We did discuss switching to another insulin but he said something about gangulain or something like that? (Just looked at the insulin boards - he was talking about Lantus Glarglain?) I kind of wasnt focused cause we'd agreed with my schedule we won't do this till after Labor Day anyway. Last we talked he said Lantus which at least sounded familiar to me.
I DO think his constipation is an issue - those good numbers you see that Carl points out - were when he was POOPING decently right after the enema - he was better - it's so frustrating. I have to get this poor cat regular to get him regulated it really seems clear to me. Plus he just doesn't feel well - he's licking his butt a lot and drooling a bit after that and the drool on his bib smells like poop - it's horrible - I think he's leaking a bit sometimes after he tries to go and he keeps cleaning it up - it's just making me crazy and I feel SO sad for him. I just don't know what else to do for him. I was going to try pumpkin again we did that once and it worked but the Vet is pretty sure it's not that he's dehydrated or that the poop is dried up cause it's not but that the elasticity in his colon is not good - just standard Mega Colon condition and it clearly is now that I read the Mega Colon forum once in a while - same old story over and over again.
Yes, he is probably a bit over weight. He's 19.2 lbs. When he went down to 17 he looked emaciated but I would guess 18.5 would be a nice spot for him so there's almost a pound more on him than there should be. I think if he'd NEVER gotten up to 24 he wouldn't have looked so odd at 17 - his belly is all stretched out and almost to the floor so at 17 he looked just awful with his sides all drawn down cause the belly skin was still hanging there - anyway. So Yes, a bit over weight as well.
Thank you ALL for the feed back - means so much to me - especially when I feel like I'm doing this all in a vacuum cause I'm not on here much - my vet is not HUGELY encouraging about testing frequently (believes I can test before shots and around Nadiar if i want to..) I'm not even home observing him as often as I'd like and as sweet as my hubby is about helping out he's not really focused on this - just does what I tell him. So thanks again.
 
Ellen,

So sorry to hear robbie's constipation not much better. You sure are trying everything you can. Hope the new med's will help him. I used to take this med to help me when it was still available for humans and it worked wonders. Hope it does the same for Robbie.

I know it can be very frustrating trying to find the right dosage. I have been trying since Nov of last year. Hang in there. I think the advice on the focus of BG and not the dosage is good. But some cats need that consistant dosage a little longer to react. I know that from experience. Remember, ECID.

Weight problem: My copper used to be 23lbs and never really looked fat at that weight. He is also a Maine Coon. When he was DX he had lost to 17lbs. He had lost alot of muscle and looked terrible and very unhealthy. The Vet's (went to 3 different ones) all said he needed to loose weight and his ideal weight should be around 14lbs. I thought for sure that he would be too skinny on that number. As i have changed his diet to part raw and part only fancy feast 0%carbs, he has slowly gained back all his muscle, even his legs where neuropathy has set in and now is starting to loose a healthy weight, only fat. He is now at 15lbs as of today and looks great!!! He still wants him to loose 1 more pound to be at his ideal weight. He doesn't look skinny at all, but very muscular and healthy. He is a BIG maine coon and i would of never said he would of looked good at 14lbs. So keep an open mind. It does take time, but worth it. Just make sure that he is loosing the fat and not muscle. Copper actually gained a little at first back to 20lbs (his muscle) and then started loosing his fat as he started to get better. We still are not there to regulation or remission yet, but at least the weight thing is not an issue anymore and i'm sure it has helped him feel better. Now maybe the BG will start to cooperate and he will go into remission.

Good luck on working on the weight problem. Just be patient with it.

I'll be praying for you and Robbie!

lori
 
oh ellen, i haven't been on much and didn't realize things were quite so stressful! sounds like you are being Super Woman! i don't know a lot about helping with constipation, but am wondering if you could increase the miralax - again, just asking, not advising because i am not experienced with that. it does seem to me that i've heard people say they have used as much as 1/4tsp. are you adding lots of water to his food?

what i have been told about cats that have gone into remission and then come out is that it usually takes more insulin subsequent times.

i feel a little badly posting all of that, because although i was responding to you asking for people to look at his ss, it sounds like you are doing all that you possibly could be doing. it also sounds like you are a bit caught with different advice from your vet on holding doses longer and on sticking with the prozinc still. i'm not sure on what his rationale is for that because studies do show a better remission rate on lantus than prozinc. but . . . i don't want to add to your load. if you want the document on that study to give to your vet, holler at me and i'll find it on my computer.

so i will just add that i'm sending you all the encouraging thoughts possible. wanna go out for a happy hour at some point when things let up? :YMHUG:
 
What a stressful time for you working and Robbie not working so well, Ellen. Shoot!

I agree that the constipation is probably impacting the numbers and trying to finesse the dose at this point is not productive. And just adds to your stress. Hope the new meds are the right combo and they help. Thinking of you and Robbie often and sending pooping vibes.......
 
Went hunting for mega colon and found a post by Gwen and JJ. These are things she has tried:

At present, we treat Gwyn's IBD/megacolon with a combination of prednisone, Miralax, Zantac (*not* Pepcid), cyanocobalamin injections (the 'normal' form of B-12), thiamine, and varying types of enemas. In the past, we have also used cisapride, cascara, pumpkin, Metamucil, lactulose, and probably other stuff that I'm currently forgetting.

At one point, based on the experience of lots of IBD cats who have successfully treated IBD by switching to a raw food diet, we also switched to a raw food diet. Unfortunately, that didn't work out: Gwyn got more constipated. What I hadn't factored into the food switch was that the majority of IBD cats have the diarrheal form and that a raw food diet can cause some degree of constipation -- exactly what you want for diarrhea, not so much what you want with someone already prone to backing up. So if Chloe's on a raw food diet then, depending on what else is going on with her, you may want to (unfortunately) switch to a less 'natural' food.
 
Thanks again all -
Is IBD irritable Bowel Disease or something else? So far Robbie only has Mega Colon (and asthma and diabetes and arthritis but who's counting :lol: ) and am hoping that's all we'll be dealing with.
The Cisapride came last night and at 2am I gave him some cause I wanted to get this process started asap - well this morning I went to look at it all again and I think I gave him like 1/100th of what he's supposed to get :roll: so that's not gonna do much I'm sure - I'm going to post in the general section cause the amount that he's supposed to get seems odd to me - I'm confused it's a very small, thin syringe and he's supposed to get 1ML and it has ML on one side and drps on the other side - the ML side has 1ML as being basically a FULL syringe and than it goes down in amounts like .09 .08 etc. last night bleary eye'd I gave him .01 which was almost nothing and was thinking "it will take us months to go thru this stuff" so now this morning I'm looking at the fact that I'm probably supposed to give him a FULL syringe (1ML) and that will take us thru it a bit faster. However, I'm nervous that I still don't have it right - can't reach my vet (I'm pretty sure I won't be able to) and not sure what to do.

The weight issue is interesting - how did you get him to loose the weight in a healthy way? Robbie lost all this weight when he first got really sick with the diabetes (he'd gone from 24 to 22 by me reducing his food long before we knew about the diabetes) and he want from 22 to 16.something and looked truly awful (I look back at photos from then and can't believe it). The vet (who had long said Robbie should weight about 17lbs) was also horrified and agreed he was probably better off around 18.5 - 1.5lbs is a lot on a cat it seems. Once we took him off dry food and his diabetes regulated than he went OTJ he settled in at around 19.5 now he's 19.2. I'd be happy to see him at a lower weight looking good but not so sure about him building up muscle weight. Also not so sure about the raw diet with his mega colon issues. He's constantly hungry still - I've gotten some Cod/Shrimp FF which is the lowest cal/carb they have I think so I can give him a bit more (he normally likes the chopped grill feast - amazingly he can be a tad picky) and I need to order those frozen cat snacks he lked - just so he's not fussing so much at times.

Had a medium sized poop sometime yesterday - now hoping something good happens today - he's hiding under our bed a lot which is NOT a good sign generllay lured him out with a feather toy this morning and played with him - problem is he's so strong and big that once he gets the feather at all the game (and the toy) are pretty much over... but he was happy to play which I think means he can't feel THAT awful.
 
Yes, IBD is Irritable Bowel. Looks like JJ had that and Mega Colon.

Glad he pooped yesterday - that is a good sign. And that he seems to be feeling well enough to play with you a little.

I don't know about the weight. I think I would be reluctant to change anything until you get the constipation to a place where he is going pretty regularly. Then you can look at how much you are feeding and what you feed. There are certainly lower calorie low carb choices.....

Hope someone on Health can help with the Cisapride dosage.
 
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