so far I don't like using Lantus

Status
Not open for further replies.
George&Bert

George&Bert

Member Since 2009
I feel like I'm in the Twilight zone with it. With PZI as I used with Bert I felt in control and can predict where we would be at any given time. I would like to switch back, but can't imagine I can do that safely until he is in good numbers.
 
Do you have a spreadsheet or any numbers you can share so that people can take a look at what you are seeing? Lantus does work differently than PZI, but there is a "logic" to it that will make sense to experienced L users and they can help you see it. Which kitty are we talking about here, and how long have you been using the Lantus?

Carl
 
Andre and since mid January. He is a easy going guy until you try and touch his ears then look out! The vets take it from the back leg and it takes two of them.

Eventually I hope to test, but for know it is a weekly trip to the vet for a test or two and watch the litter box get wetter or dryer.
 
Have you tried getting blood from his paw? I have seen a few people who were not able to get blood from the ears use the paw instead.

No matter which insulin you are using, if it's not possible to home test, you're still at a huge disadvantage. When you used PZI with Bert, were you able to test at home? If you have to rely on the vet for BG numbers once a week, you are going to be shooting blind. I can't imagine how stressful it is for you to wonder all day every day where Andre is BG-wise, and never knowing for sure what the shot is doing or going to do. When I started treating Bob, I was testing, but only at preshots. I had little clue, no knowledge of Feline Diabetes, and didn't know FDMB existed. I wasn't shooting blind, but I was more or less blissfully ignorant on a day-to-day basis. Even if you were to switch Andre to PZI/Prozinc, the folks who are on the PZI forum every day would have a hard time being able to advise without numbers. Everyone here or there would do their best, but we're really reliant on data in order to try to help.

Here's a link posted a couple months ago that has links to a couple of studies that involve lantus use without home testing, but using vet testing and curves. One involved 24 cats (3 different insulins, eight cats each) that measured effectiveness of the 3 insulin types. The 8 Lantus patients all went "OTJ" by the end of the study period. They were tested every week or two at the vet, dose adjusted accordingly at that time. Maybe share this with your vet? It is not an ideal solution to your problem, but it at least offers hope that Andre can be treated effectively if it is not possible for you to home test.

http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=60838

Carl
 
Thanks, good info.

Bert was first diagnosed in 2008 because he went DKA and was on the verge of death. He did not even recognize me. He lay there at the hospital motionless and the doc said he was not going to make it. I went there three times a day and sat there with him talking petting and rubbing wet food on his gums to stimulate him. After s he started coming around I would drop him off in the morning and pick him up after work.

For a year I would just watch the litter and tell the vet if it was wetter or dryer and reported his behavior. Eventually I found this site and also found Fritzthebrave site for his asthma. Everything changed after that and I was able to home test three times a day to my docs opposition. Today however he has learned and grown and he and I share lots of info. I introduced my other vet to Levemir two weeks ago. So we can educate them as they us.

Bert passed due to cancer in 2010. Still miss that boy every day.

Thanks for the link, I will share it and use it. This is encouraging.
 
Please stick it out--Also start testing his urine with Purina Glucotest urinary diagnostic system--I used them for 11 months till I could BG test Moonie, as she was also impossible to test--I would be glad to help you with this--You can look on the old board as I used to run an alternative monitoring forum, and I think It nay help you get more used to the lantus--I tested her 3x a day--and measured her water intake..
The little squares from glucotest go into the litter box & when he pees on them they cahnge color indicating what the urine glucose is--It is useful, but not an up to the minute way of monitoring, and easy--
I have to go out now, so I will check out your posts later--
Also please look at Moonie's SS, and you will see when she has her nadir & goes back up
Go on to 2012 in our SS, not exactly up to date, but you will get the drift--
Just be patient, we can help you!
 
Roni,
Thanks for the info on the Glucotest. That's good info to have the next time someone posts they are not able to get blood at all.

....another bookmark for me.

Carl
 
Good idea, however, i have nine cats using the same boxes Andre does. The other eleven kitties use other boxes. I'm boxed in..could be a pun. :)

I'm going to test another chunky male to make sure he is not adding to the urine action. Right now the only way I can tell of dosage progress is the amount of wet litter and it isn't reducing. I'm wondering if it's another cat or the NDW thing you all talk about.

It's a beautiful morning here all sunny and warm. I just finished the morning feeding of inside and outside cats.

I hope you all have a very satisfying day and may ll your numbers be perfect. :)
 
AS was pointed out to me by Sienne, I am sorry I did not know that you had so many other cats--
If you could possibly restrict the FD cat for a day,& catch 2 pees with the Glucotest,(am & pm) you could have some idea where he is going during the day-but you would need a different litter box & keep him in one room ...
Look It is difficult when shooting blind as you dont really know where their numbers are--
I did it for quite a while --Also another technique would be to get ketodiastix & see if you can catch his urine on the stick while he is peeing in the LB--I Know it seems crazy with all your kitties--You must have a big heart to have so many & love them..Well, If you need the help of an experienced urine tester, please contact me :-D
Lantus is really more predictable as you know the action starts at +3, but his nadir(lowest number) could be between +4-+7 or who knows, but try to work in that range--As I said-would be glad to assist!
 
Bless your heart, Ronni

What do the strips tell you? Probably how much sugar is dumping, but how does that relate to BGs. Twice Andre has been tested and twice no sugar in urine even though his number in the 400s. So, it sounds like he is not a candidate for this type of testing.

Now, let me say this..talked to one of my vets yesterday. She said it does not matter because it will read the highest reading and it would be him. Again, he has showed no urine. This same vet is pretty up on things. She is happy checking him every two weeks and adjusting doses accordingly. In the meantime see if there are increases or decreases of urine in the litter box.

Now, one problem among others, his best buddy is Toby a twelve year old male who once was the king of tomcats in the area in which I live. Toby is massive and tight as a drum. I cannot get a pinch of skin anywhere. He is a wonderful boy and loves to be petted, but don't try and hold him or touch his ears! He is so big I had to test him to see if he was DM due to his weight as he could be part of the flooding. Well, it was a tooth and nail battle. I can't do this to Andre because he is recovering from illness and still a bit weak, but Toby is strong so I can lay on him. It was still difficult and took several tries and much foul language. I was both happy and shocked to see a reading of 69. Now, my hands were full of blood and so were his ears, but I expect the reading was accurate enough.

Also, I originally tested my first sugarcat by reporting the wet litter amounts and the doc would raise or lower the amounts of insulin until I found this site in 2008.

Thanks for the advice.
 
Have you tried the "burrito" method yet? There are a couple of ways to do it, and it shouldn't stress your recovering boy out.

The method most use is to take a bath-size towel and wrap the cat up like a burrito so that only its head is exposed. That takes the claws and the flailing legs out of the equation altogether.

I have a big, strong male civvie as well, and this worked fairly well for him when he needed his ears medicated daily.

The easier method is to take a sweatshirt that has a good cuff on the sleeves (cuff should have enough give that it won't choke the kitty but not so much that he can stretch it any more than that). Gather up the sleeve and put it over the cat's head so his head is out the cuff, and then straighten the sleeve back out so that the cat is inside it, and wrap the rest of the shirt under him so he can't back out. It will be narrow enough that he can't flail or claw, and you should be able to hold him against your side with one arm while you get the test. I used it with a very weak cat and it wasn't stressful to either of us!
 
It's not that I can't muscle him down. I tested 28 lb wild man Toby today and have the scratches to prove it.

Andre's was very, very ill for twelve weeks and he starts to choke and act odd if I force him too much. He gets really freaky disoriented. I just don't want to hurt him. Eventually as he gets better and feels better I'll try it again. For now it's a trip to the vet every other week unless I see significant changes or suspicious behavior.
Thanks for your advice though.

I am more concerned about his general health than the DM right now. He is on a 1.75 u100 BID dose so I doubt he will go DKA on that size of a dose. I am more concerned about the other.

I have drawn out a simple graph with two triangles, the points facing each other so the two rises are right and left. There is one of these to the right and one to the left each one equaling 12 hours. The center of the page is where two rises meet. The high pints mean it's time for a shot and the two "0" points are nadirs. I plot the feeding schedule along the line so..
lite fed at the injection, then a heavy feed at +3 (so it's 7:30 and 10:30) then a heavy feed at +6 or +7 (near nadir), then a lite feed at +9 and it repeats for the second twelve hours.
 
i'd suggest tweaking your food schedule so that most of the food is given with the shot and in the first 3-5 hrs after the shot. that puts most of the food carbs in the kitty's body at the same time that the lantus is strongest. lantus wanes after the midpoint of the cycle (around 6ish hours after the shot, but different for different cats) so there would be less help with any carbs consumed after that point.

most of us feed most of the food in the first 3 or so hours. all of punkin's food comes in the first 3 hours after each shot. that said, some cats are grazers and it doesn't seem to affect their blood sugar too much. this is one of those times where it is good to know your own cat.

whatever you do with the food, at the point where you are testing, you would want to withhold food in the 2 hours prior to the test at shot time. that way you can see what's really happening with his blood sugar and not have it be food affected. i know you're not testing right now, but hoping you'll be able to get to that point.

i burritoed punkin for about 2 weeks for tests. when he realized he was stuck, he gave up, stopped fighting and i would say the stress level for both of us went way down. i think he was more relaxed because of it.
 
I understand your reluctance to test Andre and upset him but I would think he would get more upset being at the vet's being tested.
Have you tried giving him a treat to distract him?

Putty was a very difficult cat to test. It took both myself and my husband to wrap him in a blanket as one of us held him and the other one tested. I gave him a treat every time and within a couple of weeks he would just lay down without any struggle. Now all I have to do is point to his blanket and he jumps right up on his own without a treat.

I hope things get easier for both of you.
 
It is hard doing it on my own. I only have three arms.

He is not stressed at the vet. He seems to like the attention from the girls..he is a flirt you know. :)

My vets plan is two test every two weeks and before any adjustment up or down.

I am more worried about him getting sick again..no upsets if I can.

Okay Julie I see your point. I'll remove the +9 feedings.
 
you can give him a little if you think there's a reason he needs it. some cats seem to get acid tummy if they go too long without eating and they end up vomiting by the end of the day. just keep in mind that the insulin isn't doing much at that point.

and every cat is different - some graze on lantus and it's fine. i don't know how it affects Andre.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top