Smokey's Updated Thread Diet Change/No Insulin (so far)

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The spreadsheet isn't working, Wendi. Go back to your signature in the User Control Panel. Highlight the whole long url again. Then go up to the button line above the white box - with the B and Quote etc. Choose URL button. That should fix it.
 
Now the spreadsheet is working. Down 40 more points. This is good!

If you want, you can put your spreadsheet in your signature so it comes up every time you post. Just go to User Control Panel and Edit signature. Paste the url in, do the button thing and choose submit. Then it will come up every time like your names do.
 
Hope I did it right this time, guess we will see!

Do you think Smokey will go down more in the next 2 hours, probably not 50 points though. He still has a bit of food left in his bowl as well.
 
I went back and read your previous thread, it looks like Smokey is the poster chlid for a low carb wet food diabetic diet.

Go Smokey!!!!
 
New reading 226 @ +6 hours. Smokey seems tired & I have came across a few little vomit spots in the house, hopefully it's just the switch to wet food. ;-(
 
Yes, sometimes the wet food can cause stomach upsets. Beef especially is hard on mine. If you keep track of the food fed in the comments section of your ss, maybe you can find a correlation.

Nice number :-D
 
I think I would go through the night with no insulin. You need to be sure the carbs have totally cleared from the dry food and see what the "true" BG is without the effects of dry food. If you were to shoot tonight, it would be almost impossible to suggest a dose and I would want to be able to monitor the entire cycle when you start back. I would continue to get some tests tonight--data. It does appear that the low to mid 200s are probably the true BG without food influencing them. When you start back with insulin-- assuming he doesn't continue to drop lower into non diabetic numbers, you are going to need to start with a really low dose and see what happens.

Did you get the ketone strips? Anytime that you are not giving insulin you need to monitor ketones!
 
You have a GOOD reason to be excited!

BUT---check for Ketones! I can't say it enough. Cats can develop ketones when not getting insulin, even if the BGs are in low numbers.
 
I want to test for ketones but I have no idea how to go about getting them, Smokey is a private pottier. I have another catas well. Do you guys have any suggestions beside getting separate litter boxes & what should the number read to be a good reading?
 
Wendi -

What exciting progress!!

I'm no expert on checking for ketones, but I can tell you what we did. We cleaned the litterbox well - you know cats can't resist a clean box! And, watched and waited for Hershey to head that way (We have two cats.)...and waited...and waited...and - well, you get the picture. The stinker waited until we had gone to bed before he went! It took a couple of days, but we finally caught him in the box. Actually, Doug had opened the back door (and Hershey had followed) and Doug thinks when the cold air hit him, he HAD to go! Hershey is a private pottier, too, but he really didn't pay much attention to Doug testing him.

I've been told other people put out a clean box with aquarium gravel (so it doesn't absorb the urine) - or put a spoon under them when they're going - or a tray made of folded tinfoil. For us, the hardest part was just catching him going!

Take care -

Libby (and Hershey, too!)
 
Wendi, Smokey's numbers look great. You want his numbers to be riding in the blues and greens to call for no insulin. If you're able to get +4 and +6 numbers tomorrow, you''ll probably be due to give a shot in the AM. I don't know what your work schedule is, but if there's anyway you can go TID Smokey seems like the perfect candidate.

Prozinc tends to fade out on certain kitties around +8, so if you could catch those and keep on top of BG's I think you have a good chance getting Smokey OTJ.

I didn't have a problem checking for Ketones, but some people have lined their little box with saran wrap, so kitty can still see the little, but after they do their business the urine should be in a puddle, so you can dip the strip.

Good Luck!
 
Well his number this morning was 267 so lower then yesterdays start so I think I will hold off on insulin again & see how the day goes, only prob is I don't think I can get any numbers today. :-(
 
The numbers look Great since the change from the dry. But, if your numbers stay in the 200 range you will need to start giving insulin. If/When you do have to start back the insulin, you need to start with a LOW dose and monitor closely. Any data that you have from the insulin doses and BG readings you were getting while Smokey was on dry food is irrelevant, since he is now eating low carb food! You will need to start over with Smokey and his insulin needs. Start Low and go Slow!

Good Luck!
 
Morning Wendi,

I think you are fine to wait another day before considering insulin. I agree with the others that you would need to give him a tiny dose and watch him carefully.

I do not understand Michelle's advice, and as this board operates on open peer review, will say so. TID means dosing three times a day. I see no reason to consider such an approach until we see what he does with a small mini dose, see how long it lasts and how low it takes him. This is a whole new ball game with the absence of the high carb food and we need to approach it carefully with that in mind. Whatever numbers he got before are of no use to us in terms of guiding dosage.

My opinion.
 
When I look at the SS, I don't see anything that makes it obvious that the insulin is tapering off in 8 hours. What I see is a kitty whose numbers were all over the place when he was eating dry food, who had some really big drops on relatively low doses of insulin. A 60% drop on one unit, or going from a black to a yellow, is pretty decent action. I also see days where the PMPS is significantly lower than the AMPS that indicate to me long duration, not short. I keep reading lately about how short a duration Prozinc has, but I'm not seeing it as often as I am reading about it. Prozinc isn't "PZI". Compounded PZI can last less than 12 hours, as little as 8 in some cases. Prozinc tends to last longer.
But like others have said, that was "dry food" days. Now with an all canned diet, while the numbers are not "non-diabetic", they aren't out of control either. You can see that his body is doing something to fight off the carbs and the boosted BG from the eating. Not enough, but something. Otherwise he'd be sky high after 48 hours with no insulin.

I think I would hold off on the insulin until you get to a point where you are able to monitor a whole cycle, and then start with a low dose and see how it works for a couple of cycles. Basically, like Kim said, you're starting over. You've removed the the thing that was most likely the cause of the ugly numbers. Not sure what others are thinking dose wise, but I'm thinking maybe .5u to start?

If I were in your shoes, and Bob had good numbers like Smokey does right now, I'd be jumping up and down doing the happy dance!


Carl
 
Thank you & yes I am so excited to see these numbers drop & staying steady. If I wouldve know this long ago I wouldve never fed them dry food EVER. I'm hoping this switch is also good for my Tomyy too, he's holding steady at 17 lbs. HAHA All of this is a tremendous help & I thank you all for helping us.
 
I am going to the store today & grabbing some strips. Are there evident signs to watch for in the meantime? He seems great well besides the overnight vomiting. I have a feeling he's just mad because I don't give him food to munch on all night long. ;P
 
Hello Wendi, As I stated in my previous post, I wasn't sure what your work schedule was like. I mentioned TID due to Smokey's numbers being in the 300's and over at +8 and AMPS. Since you did make the switch to the low carb diet. I do agree that you will be starting over as far as the SS numbers goes. Smokey will likely have to get some insulin... who knows, maybe he'll surprise us all. However, if Smoke rises over 300's at +8 TID could be an option.

I was successful getting my Prudence OTJ while TID and a good friend of mine was lucky enough to catch her kiity and make the diet switch to where TID wasn't necessary.

Best of luck!
 
Have you tried tucking in a piece of Saran wrap where he usually goes in the box? Sometime enough will land on the wrap for a test.

Glad he is skating along in the 200s.
 
This weekend we do want to try a mini dose. The normal range is 40-120 with the majority of the time in double digits, without insulin. He is completely regulated at this point, but we don't want to lose the opportunity to get him OTJ (anti jinx) if it is possible.
 
Finally was able to catch Smokey in the act & the results to me looked in between negative & trace but my bf said it was negative to him. I think the more saturated area of test spot kept throwing me off & I was getting confused but more tan.
 
Well again last night got a ketone test & results were negative. Smokey's number was a bit higher this morning (306) but I'm not sure if me giving him a little extra food last night may have caused this & I couldn't resist both cats just stood there & starred with hunger eyes! ;P
 
They are hard to resist. We would like to see food bringing his numbers down. I am guessing it is time to help him out with a tiny bit of insulin. If you start tonight, can you monitor?

Here is an explanation of mini doses:

When your cat is consistently in numbers too low to shoot at shot time and in numbers in the 100 range and below during the cycle, you can consider micro dosing. This process should be guided on the forum by experienced members and will require more frequent testing.

You may be shooting at times other than the 12/12 schedule, when the blood glucose levels rise enough to require a small dose of insulin. You will need to pick a number somewhere near the 150 range at which you will plan to shoot, being sure that the number is indeed rising. The dose at these low numbers will vary with each cat and its patterns, so advice should be solicited. But you may be considering doses below .25 and even considering a “drop” of insulin. At this point, U100 needles and the conversion chart will be necessary.

It is important during this period to offer small frequent meals. You may want to experiment with the lowest carb foods to help bring down the numbers, staying away from seafood more than once or twice a week.

I think it's helpful to look at the spreadsheet of someone who has done it. Cello's Mom did a great job: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApRoVAkSuXuUdDltSnA3ZFVHQ3BUdlNLanJYRkQzSnc#gid=0

I'd think for him you would want to set 200 as your number, just to see how he responds. And maybe a drop of insulin. But let's see what others think.
 
I agree with Sue....he needs to be started back on insulin. But, you need to start with a very low dose.
 
It would have been amazing if he could have gone completely off insulin so soon. We have always talked about the possibility of mini dosing insulin. This weekend will be a good time to try it.
 
He was a high 200 before pm feeding & a lot higher at I think a +3 test. I need to update his spreadsheet just not on computer or near book right now. I also mentioned he has had a snack in between meals the past 2 days so I don't know how much impact that should have on number.
 
Wendi -

Don't be disappointed. I haven't seen Sue mention it this thread (but if I had a nickle for every time I heard it... :lol: ) "Think of this as a marathon - not a sprint!". You'll find the magic dose in time, but it usually doesn't happen overnight. And OTJ is even more elusive. Try to be patient, and know that you're lucky if you can get Smokey to a point where his numbers are good - with or without insulin. You're doing great so far!

Lu-Ann
 
Thanks everyone I'm just so mad at myself for spending all the time & money going to the vet & getting nowhere with it. I shouldve used the internet more to get help but I'm glad I'm here now!
 
Yep, in the same boat. We will probably be going back on insulin in the next couple days. The brilliance of going NS after a diet change is now we know what our cats normal BG is and can actually tell what the insulin is doing when we add it back in, which I agree is likely going to be needed for the both of us.

What %carb is your food? I'm wondering if you could find something just a tad lower and see what that does for a couple cycles? It seems your cat, like mine, has some pancreatic function going on...but not enough to do anything but keep his numbers flat...they are all the same value essentially after accounting for testing variance? Maybe a lower carb diet would be just enough to see a drop after feeding? I know I know nothing...but ? Can it hurt? My kitty is on super low carb semi raw, the closest commercial food to it is 9 lives flaked tuna at 2% carb. Not saying I would feed my cat exclusively on fish, but would it be safe to try just for a day and see if smokey does a little better?
 
Well I know it's been awhile since I last updated in this post but I have a new concern with him and his progress. We have been spending almost month just checking his glucose and not injecting insulin still just to see where his real levels may be. Smokey has seemed to have stayed in the 200's some days high and some days low with a couple high 100's in there as well. My huge concern now is his weight loss, he has seemed to have lost maybe a pound and a half since this food change. Some days he's hungrier then others and it could get up to 3-4 cans between the 2 cats and I know for a fact he also steals the other boys food. His water intake is a lot better then the old days and his ketones seem fine so I don't know what is going on. Thanks!
 
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