Smiffy and her weight loss

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Looby & Smiffy

Looby & Smiffy

Member Since 2016
@Elizabeth and Bertie @Marlena @Mogs I have been researching the necessity for Smiffy to lose weight to help her pancreas to start to work again or rather to give her a good chance of going into remission and came across this information from the Cornell Unviersity Vetenary School:

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/Health_Information/brochure_diabetes.cfm


Amongst other things it says that some cats will need high fibre diets for their Diabetes to be controlled and others will respond better to a low carb diet ..

Just for your information and is something that give me some reasssurance that Smiffy is on a diet and amount that will help her to lose weight which doesn't HAVE to be low in carbs ....... there is no mention of whether wet or dry food is better and it also says that unlike humans kidney problems is not a common follow on problem for a Diabetic cat as it is an issue in humans ... the same applies to heart problems which is also reassuring ..

What I take from this is that the diet Smiffy is on is fine but if she doesn't lose weight on it, then we should consider the other option which is to put her on low carbs ....
 
Capoo said:
Hi Loboby,

How do you know that your food is rich in high-complex carbohydrates?

I strongly encourage you to read this article:
http://jfm.sagepub.com/content/17/3/235.full

Sophie
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According to the equically reliabe source above high-complex carbohydrates are one of the two options to treat Diabetic cats ... if she doesn't lose weight on the Hills m/d for Diabetic cats then I will have to speak to the Vet about the other option which is lower carb food ......have to go ... I will look at your link later ... thanks it all helps ....
 
Yes, I know, I have red your article.
My question was related to the food you are currently giving to your cat: how do you know that it is rich in high-complex carbohydrates and not rich in simple carbohydrates?
 
By the way, you can have a look at the spreadsheet of my cat: some times ago, I did an experiment, and transitioned him to wet food only (before, he was fed with only dry food rich in proteins). I let you see the results....
 
Looby,
ECID!
Yes, there is some research that says complex carbohydrate is good for diabetic cats but there are other cats which do better on a diet with very reduced carbohydrate load.
Most cats don't thrive on dry kibble.
Your cat is diabetic and if she does not loose weight it might be worth considering a different approach.
It is so difficult because my Rocky had been on meat diet for some time prior to FD DX but since he was a kitten his diet was pretty standard (dry kibble and wet food with rice) and I overfed him.
I'm so passionate about feeding raw home made species-appropriate diet that I am biased!
 
Capoo said:
Yes, I know, I have red your article.
My question was related to the food you are currently giving to your cat: how do you know that it is rich in high-complex carbohydrates and not rich in simple carbohydrates?
Click to expand...
You re right I will check!
 
When I switched all of my cats to low carb canned food (Friskies pates), a couple of the overweight civvies lost weight without even trying.

What we have observed of cats here is that switching to a low carb, canned diet may reduce the glucose 100-200 mg/dL (one person reported a drop of 300 mg/dL) and may reduce the insulin dose by 1-2 units.

Pop over to Cat Info to see what feline nutrition specialist Dr Lisa Pierson suggests as appropriate food for cats.
 
I can t find out if Hills mod is high complex but will ask the Vet ...... Read lots of testimonials about it working for diabetic cats and seen pictures of cats that have lost weight on it .... I do know the formulation is for weight loss as well as lower in carbs .... If it doesn't show results for Smiffy we will change ....
 
BJM said:
When I switched all of my cats to low carb canned food (Friskies pates), a couple of the overweight civvies lost weight without even trying.

What we have observed of cats here is that switching to a low carb, canned diet may reduce the glucose 100-200 mg/dL (one person reported a drop of 300 mg/dL) and may reduce the insulin dose by 1-2 units.

Pop over to Cat Info to see what feline nutrition specialist Dr Lisa Pierson suggests as appropriate food for cats.
Click to expand...
I know all about low carb wet food over and over and have read Dr Pierson at length, I was just looking for a range of opinions and studies from different sources and this is as good a source so exploring more than one fixed idea about things ... Looking at other Professors life work etc in Diabetes in cats
 
Looby & Smiify said:
This is quote from the Cornell University Vetenary site: A high-fiber, high-complex carbohydrate diet not only can achieve weight loss if necessary, but is believed to help control blood sugar levels after eating.
Click to expand...
Looby & Smiify said:
This is quote from the Cornell University Vetenary site: A high-fiber, high-complex carbohydrate diet not only can achieve weight loss if necessary, but is believed to help control blood sugar levels after eating.
Click to expand...
@ capo the article you quoted says wet food diet 'may ' increase weight loss and then it recommends both low carb wet and dry prescriptive diets for diabetic cats and then it says normal dry foods are not recommended - Smiffy is on one the prescriptive dry food diets for weight loss and diabetes .....
 
Capoo said:
By the way, you can have a look at the spreadsheet of my cat: some times ago, I did an experiment, and transitioned him to wet food only (before, he was fed with only dry food rich in proteins). I let you see the results....
Click to expand...
E C I D so we are just seeing how Smiffy does on this diet ..... If it is not working for her we will change but on paper there is no reason why it wouldn't now that l have read more about it and found that studies have not concluded that low carb wet food is the ONLY way .....
 
Capoo said:
Anyway, before doing any change in her diet, you need to home test in order to keep her safe.
Click to expand...
Yes I know .......... I hope this diet does work for her - we are seeing the Vet again on 1st June which is a month after her last fructosamine test the result of which was 405 so nearly in the range of excellent control but if she has gained more weight then I am going to have to give wet food serious consideration .... it will be just over 2 months then that she is on the new diet ..........one of the reasons I have faith so far in Hills was that when she wss having diarrhea, the Vet put her on dry i/d and withing two days her tummy had settled down after nearly a week of diarhea - it worked a treat ...... that is one of the reasons I knew there was something wrong with her and they took all her bloods which came back as good for her age but the test for Diabetes (suppose the Fructosamine) came back high - her BG was also 26 and the last time we went to the Vet after a month of treatment it was 17 under the same circumstances so lower but still very high .. hoping for a better result in June and if now then have to reconsider ... have given the Vet all the webstie details highlighting Dr Lisa Pierson for him to look at out of interest as I put it to him ....
 
I don't think that the fructosamine test is relevant to evaluate the response to the insulin treatment : it only gives you an average BG level during the last two weeks.
And with an average value, you cannot conclude anything : the average will be the same if your cat's BG level is 200 all days long, or if your cat's BG level varies from 0 to 400 all day long.
At the beginning, I was also using Caninsulin / Vetsulin, and my fructosamine test result was in the same range as yours : 400. But when I started to home test, I have seen that my cat was oscillating between 500 and 20.... So thanks to the home testing, my cat is still alive!!!
 
Capoo said:
I don't think that the fructosamine test is relevant to evaluate the response to the insulin treatment : it only gives you an average BG level during the last two weeks.
And with an average value, you cannot conclude anything : the average will be the same if your cat's BG level is 200 all days long, or if your cat's BG level varies from 0 to 400 all day long.
At the beginning, I was also using Caninsulin / Vetsulin, and my fructosamine test result was in the same range as yours : 400. But when I started to home test, I have seen that my cat was oscillating between 500 and 20.... So thanks to the home testing, my cat is still alive!!!
Click to expand...
Thanks for scaring the life out of me ..... I understand that the test is an average...... but it is all going in the right direction so far .... I have to go ....
 
I'm going to be completely honest Looby - I have serious doubts about that article no matter who wrote it. Yes, I know who Cornell are but the article says it was written in conjunction with the AAFP and we already know that most vets are not up to speed on the treatment of feline diabetes. It also suggests that Glipizide might be a decent alternative for diabetic cats and we know that Glipizide actually forces a failing pancreas to work harder rather than allowing it to rest - you'll note that it says that cats started on Glipizide usually finish up needing insulin anyway. While it may appear to control the numbers for a short time, it is more likely with an oral medication that the cat will still need insulin at a later date and will have a lower chance of remission at that point because the pancreas has been overworked when it is already struggling. The second article, linked by Capoo actually says that both the amount (they say under 12% rather than under 10% but the principle remains the same) AND type of carbohydrate is important. And states that cats that continue on a higher carb diet can still be controlled with insulin. The Hills weight loss diet is hideously high in carbs and the dry DM, while lower, really isn't much better. Bottom line with cats and food is that many of the issues our cats have are caused by them eating a non-species appropriate diet, which includes anything that is high in carbs - cats don't need many carbs in their diet at all as obligate carnivores. Then we try and fix them by continuing to feed a non-species appropriate diet. Vets get zero to minimal training in feline nutrition and the training they do get is often sponsored by one of the 'prescription' food companies (and there is not one ingredient in any of those diets that requires a prescription label). Please read this article for more information on 'prescription' foods http://truthaboutpetfood.com/consumers-and-veterinarians-should-take-note-of-new-fda-decision/ My Rosa became diabetic while eating a 'prescription' food designed to prevent urinary crystals. If only I'd known at the time that a low carb wet food diet would have the same preventative effect and avoid diabetes at the same time, I can assure you that that prescription food would never have been given house room. Take a look at her spreadsheet to see what happened once all the high carb dry food was removed from her diet. Two points to note about that spreadsheet - if I had relied on my vet's initial dosing recommendation, Rosa would not be here today as she would have been overdosed in her first week (the vet wanted her on 2 units and no home-testing and you can see what happened when her dose actually reached 2 units). And if I had relied on fructosamine testing, based on the 2 weeks information from for instance 1/20/15 to 2/2/15, she would have looked unregulated and would have had her dose increased where what she actually needed by 2/2/15 was a dose decrease. I completely understand that you're trying to find justification for feeding a high carb dry food and not home-testing - we all want to find justification for our actions, but all the really meaningful evidence is stacked against that. Your vet probably can't see it (mine did, but I am very lucky with my vet because she actually wants to learn more and reads all the research I show her and then goes looking for more) but all of us here have done our own research and have seen what happens when a cat is switched to a low carb diet.

The fructosamine test, really, proves nothing except that the insulin does something. What it does - you can't tell. As Capoo rightly says, because it shows an average it is quite possible that the range of numbers could be anything from severely hypo to really high especially with Caninsulin. Especially if you are waiting a month between tests, the fructosamine is really not telling you much at all. Especially while you are switching foods, relying on that once a month test instead of testing at home could leave Smiffy at risk of a hypo event - and without the ability to test at home, you will be relying on her to show symptoms of being hypo...and not all cats do that. Actually, being scared of hypo is not a bad thing - if you're scared by being told that the fructosamine test doesn't help you spot if Smiffy has been too low on occasion then that's because on some level you know that it's a possibility and that the fructosamine test is not a good way of preventing it. If Smiffy was a child, you wouldn't give insulin without testing - no doctor would ever suggest that as an idea. Yet vets claim that it's OK to do exactly that with a cat - and there is no justification for thinking that's safe to do. Everyone here is giving you the information and advice that you need to keep Smiffy healthy and safe. Everyone here is passionate about helping cats - our own and others - and we're asking you to home-test to keep Smiffy safe. If the idea that you're not doing that right now "scares the life out of you" - then I'm actually not sorry at all. You have zero real proof that things are going in the right direction because a 2 week average (and only taken once a month) does not show in the slightest that Smiffy is safe at all times, or that you actually have any control whatsoever - only that the "average" of those numbers appears to be OK...and as we all know, averages prove nothing.
 
And just to emphasize the message from @manxcat419 , and her doubts about the article you have quoted : the concept of simple carbohydrates versus high-complex carbohydrates is no more valid these days for diabetics. All of the scientists prefer to speak in terms of glycemic index, which is quite different...
 
I think that is a little unfair, @Looby & Smiify is doing what we all do with a newly diagnosed kitty, trying to find a much information as possible to make decisions about what is best for our kitties and to seek advice here. If you look at her other threads, Smiffy is not the most co-operative of cats and there are a number of reasons @Looby & Smiify is struggling at the moment. I don't think there is anything wrong with seeking information and then asking questions, as we all know some information is good, some not so good, so it's good to discuss it on the board and see what other people think.
 
Rather than "killing the messenger," let me take a different approach: How can we help?

I've found the website by Lisa Pierson, DVM on feline nutrition to be of enormous value in understanding diet for both cats in general and diabetic cats in particular. The American Animal Hospital Association also has a set of guidelines regarding the management of diabetes in cats and dogs that you may find helpful. They do discuss at least in general terms that a diet that's low in carbs in recommended.

One other point to be aware of is that diabetes in both humans and cats is hard on the kidneys. As cats age, the risk for kidney disease increases. This is even more the case for cats on a dry food diet. Diabetic cats are at an increased risk for kidney disease which is why we encourage members to keep their kitty's numbers below renal threshold.

I don't know if this is information you're looking for. If you have questions, we'll do our best to answer, hopefully in a way that is more welcoming.

 
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This might be a good time to post a gentle reminder for all:
Suggestions For Advice Givers
 
manxcat419 said:
I'm going to be completely honest Looby - I have serious doubts about that article no matter who wrote it. Yes, I know who Cornell are but the article says it was written in conjunction with the AAFP and we already know that most vets are not up to speed on the treatment of feline diabetes. It also suggests that Glipizide might be a decent alternative for diabetic cats and we know that Glipizide actually forces a failing pancreas to work harder rather than allowing it to rest - you'll note that it says that cats started on Glipizide usually finish up needing insulin anyway. While it may appear to control the numbers for a short time, it is more likely with an oral medication that the cat will still need insulin at a later date and will have a lower chance of remission at that point because the pancreas has been overworked when it is already struggling. The second article, linked by Capoo actually says that both the amount (they say under 12% rather than under 10% but the principle remains the same) AND type of carbohydrate is important. And states that cats that continue on a higher carb diet can still be controlled with insulin. The Hills weight loss diet is hideously high in carbs and the dry DM, while lower, really isn't much better. Bottom line with cats and food is that many of the issues our cats have are caused by them eating a non-species appropriate diet, which includes anything that is high in carbs - cats don't need many carbs in their diet at all as obligate carnivores. Then we try and fix them by continuing to feed a non-species appropriate diet. Vets get zero to minimal training in feline nutrition and the training they do get is often sponsored by one of the 'prescription' food companies (and there is not one ingredient in any of those diets that requires a prescription label). Please read this article for more information on 'prescription' foods http://truthaboutpetfood.com/consumers-and-veterinarians-should-take-note-of-new-fda-decision/ My Rosa became diabetic while eating a 'prescription' food designed to prevent urinary crystals. If only I'd known at the time that a low carb wet food diet would have the same preventative effect and avoid diabetes at the same time, I can assure you that that prescription food would never have been given house room. Take a look at her spreadsheet to see what happened once all the high carb dry food was removed from her diet. Two points to note about that spreadsheet - if I had relied on my vet's initial dosing recommendation, Rosa would not be here today as she would have been overdosed in her first week (the vet wanted her on 2 units and no home-testing and you can see what happened when her dose actually reached 2 units). And if I had relied on fructosamine testing, based on the 2 weeks information from for instance 1/20/15 to 2/2/15, she would have looked unregulated and would have had her dose increased where what she actually needed by 2/2/15 was a dose decrease. I completely understand that you're trying to find justification for feeding a high carb dry food and not home-testing - we all want to find justification for our actions, but all the really meaningful evidence is stacked against that. Your vet probably can't see it (mine did, but I am very lucky with my vet because she actually wants to learn more and reads all the research I show her and then goes looking for more) but all of us here have done our own research and have seen what happens when a cat is switched to a low carb diet.

The fructosamine test, really, proves nothing except that the insulin does something. What it does - you can't tell. As Capoo rightly says, because it shows an average it is quite possible that the range of numbers could be anything from severely hypo to really high especially with Caninsulin. Especially if you are waiting a month between tests, the fructosamine is really not telling you much at all. Especially while you are switching foods, relying on that once a month test instead of testing at home could leave Smiffy at risk of a hypo event - and without the ability to test at home, you will be relying on her to show symptoms of being hypo...and not all cats do that. Actually, being scared of hypo is not a bad thing - if you're scared by being told that the fructosamine test doesn't help you spot if Smiffy has been too low on occasion then that's because on some level you know that it's a possibility and that the fructosamine test is not a good way of preventing it. If Smiffy was a child, you wouldn't give insulin without testing - no doctor would ever suggest that as an idea. Yet vets claim that it's OK to do exactly that with a cat - and there is no justification for thinking that's safe to do. Everyone here is giving you the information and advice that you need to keep Smiffy healthy and safe. Everyone here is passionate about helping cats - our own and others - and we're asking you to home-test to keep Smiffy safe. If the idea that you're not doing that right now "scares the life out of you" - then I'm actually not sorry at all. You have zero real proof that things are going in the right direction because a 2 week average (and only taken once a month) does not show in the slightest that Smiffy is safe at all times, or that you actually have any control whatsoever - only that the "average" of those numbers appears to be OK...and as we all know, averages prove nothing.
Click to expand...
You are not telling me anything I haven't heard already and I have read the article you have quoted several times .... I am not trying to justify the treatment Smiffy is on but trying to find out if there are two valid sides to the debate .... It is the language that is used sometimes here that is upsetting and unnecessary and not useful when somebody is still new to this situation and already dealing with a cat that is extremely difficult to inject (and yes I have watched all the videos and practised all the desensitising methods) ..... I love Smiffy with all my heart and will not risk self dosing her with insulin if she were to change to wet food and home testing unless I am absolutely sure it is the right thing to do for her ..... That is not to say I don't appreciate the advice and support here but I HAVE to investigate the issues fully and not consider the advice from one sourc only before I make a decision ..... I have even made contact with a few people whose cats were treated for Diabetes by the same Vetenaty Hospital as Smiffy is with ...... It was the language used that was upsetting and unnecessary and scared the life out of me ... I've had time now to think about it but would hate for that phrasiology to be used towards somebody more vulnerable than myself - that is my point ...
 
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
Rather than "killing the messenger," let me take a different approach: How can we help?

I've found the website by Lisa Pierson, DVM on feline nutrition to be of enormous value in understanding diet for both cats in general and diabetic cats in particular. The American Animal Hospital Association also has a set of guidelines regarding the management of diabetes in cats and dogs that you may find helpful. They do discuss at least in general terms that a diet that's low in carbs in recommended.

One other point to be aware of is that diabetes in both humans and cats is hard on the kidneys. As cats age, the risk for kidney disease increases. This is even more the case for cats on a dry food diet. Diabetic cats are at an increased risk for kidney disease which is why we encourage members to keep their kitty's numbers below renal threshold.

I don't know if this is information you're looking for. If you have questions, we'll do our best to answer, hopefully in a way that is more welcoming.
Click to expand...
Thank you I will look at that tomorrow - I appreciate that very much ...
 
OK Looby - I understand Smiffy is a tricky customer (I have a fair bit of experience with difficult cats myself as both Rosa and her twin were feral as kittens and still retain some feral in their characters). So while you might think that some of us don't understand - believe me, a lot of us really do. Even the non-ferals are cats...they're independent and generally don't appreciate medical intervention at least in the early days!

How about you tell us here on the board what you want from us and we'll see if there's anything we can do to help. Please understand that we can't agree with information just because that would be the comfortable thing for everyone - if someone comes along with information that we think is dead wrong, we have a duty not only to you but to everyone who reads these posts later to say so. We care - we care very deeply about Smiffy's health and yours too. And we want to help you in the right direction with her. If you really don't want to home test, and don't think it's something you want to learn, please just level with us - the more you can share with us, the more help we can be to you. So please, tell us what you are open to trying and what you really don't want to do. That way we can make our advice fit your situation rather better...or if some of us find there isn't anything we can add, then we can choose not to comment if it is likely to further inflame the situation. :bighug:
 
manxcat419 said:
OK Looby - I understand Smiffy is a tricky customer (I have a fair bit of experience with difficult cats myself as both Rosa and her twin were feral as kittens and still retain some feral in their characters). So while you might think that some of us don't understand - believe me, a lot of us really do. Even the non-ferals are cats...they're independent and generally don't appreciate medical intervention at least in the early days!

How about you tell us here on the board what you want from us and we'll see if there's anything we can do to help. Please understand that we can't agree with information just because that would be the comfortable thing for everyone - if someone comes along with information that we think is dead wrong, we have a duty not only to you but to everyone who reads these posts later to say so. We care - we care very deeply about Smiffy's health and yours too. And we want to help you in the right direction with her. If you really don't want to home test, and don't think it's something you want to learn, please just level with us - the more you can share with us, the more help we can be to you. So please, tell us what you are open to trying and what you really don't want to do. That way we can make our advice fit your situation rather better...or if some of us find there isn't anything we can add, then we can choose not to comment if it is likely to further inflame the situation. :bighug:
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It's late now but thank you ..... I am not adverse to home testing as long as I know exactly what I'm doing ...... Am really struggling with the insulin pen with Smiffy (see my thread Smiffy hard to inject) .... Have got an AccuChek meter, even a free Alphatrak meter lined up ..... Smiffy also on slimming plan to lose weight contributing to her problem so to go it alone I would have to ce very sure of my facts etc She is nearly 15 too bless her .... Tired now ... Will start a new thread tomorrow maybe .... Thanks again ..... Phew,
 
You are very welcome Looby. The more we know, the more we can help. :) And there is help available for learning to home test. I honestly thought it was something I would never be able to do with Rosa - yet in the end, I was testing her multiple times each day with no real issues. Yes, she complains...she's a grouch. But we were able to get it done. And these days, she gets sub-q fluids, which is a whole new level of fun! Yet most days, we're able to get those done without much fuss either. Smiffy will get there - time and patience are the key. I do wonder if she's associating the Caninsulin with a fast drop that makes her feel a bit off some days - maybe if you can convince your vet to let you have one of the gentler insulins she might do better. I know that can be problematic in the UK (that's where I'm from originally so I do know the regulations there for medications for pets) but it can be done with a little convincing. You'll get there - I know you will. And, even when it sounds as though we're being a little hard on you, we really are doing it with the best of intentions for you and for Smiffy. It is very late there now - almost 5 am I think. So please do post tomorrow if you can and we'll try and get some more help figured out for you when you're rested. :)
 
Looby & Smiify said:
Am really struggling with the insulin pen with Smiffy (see my thread Smiffy hard to inject)
Click to expand...

Are you using the Vetpen?
When Capoo was on Vetsulin / Caninsulin, I have tried this pen, and as far as I remember, it produces some noise. Maybe it's this noise that Smiffy doesn't like. Have you tried to use a normal syringe?
 
manxcat419 said:
You are very welcome Looby. The more we know, the more we can help. :) And there is help available for learning to home test. I honestly thought it was something I would never be able to do with Rosa - yet in the end, I was testing her multiple times each day with no real issues. Yes, she complains...she's a grouch. But we were able to get it done. And these days, she gets sub-q fluids, which is a whole new level of fun! Yet most days, we're able to get those done without much fuss either. Smiffy will get there - time and patience are the key. I do wonder if she's associating the Caninsulin with a fast drop that makes her feel a bit off some days - maybe if you can convince your vet to let you have one of the gentler insulins she might do better. I know that can be problematic in the UK (that's where I'm from originally so I do know the regulations there for medications for pets) but it can be done with a little convincing. You'll get there - I know you will. And, even when it sounds as though we're being a little hard on you, we really are doing it with the best of intentions for you and for Smiffy. It is very late there now - almost 5 am I think. So please do post tomorrow if you can and we'll try and get some more help figured out for you when you're rested. :)
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THANKS.... It is morning here now and I have had one almighty fight with Smiffy ... bruised and scratched .... she just sees her food and walks away ... got into the pattern now where she knows I will go up to the bedroom after her ... inject her (which she hardly felt) and then I worry that if she doesn't eat soon she will go Hypo so I am gently trying to coax her out from the furniture ... but the house is so small so it is difficult .... not cluttered - just enough room for essential furniture ..... the scratching happened when I was tyring to get her out to eat ... she is eating now ...... I could wait for her to come down to eat but I tried that last night when the same happened and she took an hour to come down ... if I could draw a plan of the house you would see how difficult it is .....God only knows how I am going to home test ........
 
@manxcat419 She was all loving last night before her shot .. came and sat on the sofa with me like she always used to (on the back of the sofa) purring and headbut kissing and lettin me fuss her around the head which is the only part of her body that she likes touched and then when it got to food time, she ran upstairs and did what I have just described to you ... this morning she was all soft and purry too and alert and now she is really fed up with me again ...... have a look at the desensitising ritual I used to go through with her in my thread titled "Smiffy hard to inject" ... you can see how we have got to where we are now .... thanks ... have my CPN coming today to see me so I will probably not be on line until much later but would welcome your measured assistance ... have ordered felliway, zlykene and anxitane!!!!
 
Capoo said:
Are you using the Vetpen?
When Capoo was on Vetsulin / Caninsulin, I have tried this pen, and as far as I remember, it produces some noise. Maybe it's this noise that Smiffy doesn't like. Have you tried to use a normal syringe?
Click to expand...
No the pen doesn't make a noise when it goes in - maybe it is different now .. the only noise is turning the dial at the tip bottom of the pen to the dose which I craftily talk over but of course I am standing at the table (the only table surface in the house - really is tiny here!) and she knows my movements .... She now just sits and looks at her food from a distance or from the stairs and as soon as I move she runs upstairs into the bedroom ... I follow her up and give her her injection which doesn't hurt at all and then try to coax her down to eat in case she drops too low .... but last night I had no choice but to put the food in the bedroom for her to eat ... she had a little as I waited quietly on the stairs (this is at 10 at night - I do her injections 9.30am and 9.30pm because of my sleeping and waking pattern) but not enough so I brouht it downstairs once I knew Pasha had finished her food so that I could put her bowl away and just leave Smiffy's bowl out and about twenty minutes later she came down to eat ....... I then fell asleep on the sofa once I knew she was safe and could relax .... She seems to be more lively once the insulin has worn off as she is bright as a button first thing in the morning before her shot and in the evening she wakes up before her shot at 9.30pm so I need to tell the Vet that she may not like the Caninsulin .....

She forgives me really quickly .... I have sprayed my bed with Felliway today in the hope that she will be a bit more relaxed ... my little bedroom is now a cat zen zone!!!!
 
I think that Jill's post linking to the Suggestions for Advice Givers sticky is timely and helpful.

In addition to my support for all the subjects covered in the Suggestions for Advice Givers sticky I would also like to make the observation that 'agree to disagree' is very much a two-way street. Just as advice givers may need to move on when their repeated efforts to help prove unfruitful, advice seekers need to be respectful and appreciative of the time, energy, and care that advice givers freely and willingly spend trying to help them and also move on to different subjects. (The previous threads will always be there for the advice seeker to refer back to should they wish to reconsider the information provided at some future time.)

In such a spirit, and to avoid further duplication of effort, I suggest other members looking to assist Looby and Smiffy review Looby's posting history to see the extensive help that FDMB members have already kindly provided in terms of: educational links on optimum feline nutrition; general home testing tips; specific videos on how to set up and operate Accu-Chek Aviva glucometers with creative suggestions to aid learning; limitations of fructosamine testing; recommendations on seeking better veterinary support for blood glucose monitoring; use of secondary monitoring techniques and their even greater importance in the absence of home blood glucose monitoring; recommendations to discuss a potential insulin switch with the treating vet, plus considerable input on feline diabetes management best practice.

Refering back to the Suggestions for Advice Givers for a moment, I'd like to specifically focus on the following:
  • Above all, do no harm. Be sure you are familiar with the particular cat's circumstances before giving food and dosing advice. Wrong advice on food and dose can have dire consequences for a cat's health. Don't give generic advice on these issues. Even something as beneficial-sounding as "Put your cat on a low-carbohydrate diet" can result in death if the cat is already getting insulin (yes, it has happened). If you do decide to suggest something risky, outline the potential risks and benefits for the recipient.
  • Don't attempt to diagnose over the Internet, or make blanket assertions about a cat's health status. There's always a possibility that there's something that you don't know about the cat. Be aware that the cat may have other diagnosed or undiagnosed health conditions (such as renal impairment, pancreatitis, hyperthyroid or acromegaly) which may be complicating the situation or causing symptoms which look like diabetes. (Obvious exception: an immediate hypoglycemic episode with symptoms.)
[Emphasis mine]

Again this is a two-way street; just as advice givers need to pay great attention to what is posted by advice seekers so that they might make safe and helpful suggestions so, too, is it incumbent upon the advice seeker to provide clear, consistent and honest appraisals of their cat's behaviours, symptoms, and medical history so that advice givers can better understand the cat's status. Failure to do so is unfair to the people from whom one is seeking assistance as it is impossible to assess the soundness of any suggestion made here in the absence of accurate information.

--------

To Looby,

Members share their experiences here to help educate others and to try to help them to protect their diabetic cats. It is therefore necessary to discuss what the cats need protection from. Endogenous insulin does not come with an OFF switch. It is an uncomfortable and frightening but inescapable truth that insulin overdoses can be fatal; there is no way of getting around that harsh fact. We would be remiss in our duty of care to you, your cat, and other members who may read threads on this forum not to acknowledge this truth nor to discuss methods of minimising the risk. The primary reason we and other reputable feline diabetes support groups around the world advocate home testing so strongly is because it is the best way to protect any cat receiving insulin. Perhaps you may choose not to home monitor blood glucose (not every diabetic pet caregiver does) but at least through the education FDMB offers on the benefits of testing plus the shortcomings and risks inherent in relying instead on alternative monitoring methods you will at least be making an informed choice.

Whichever treatment choices you make for Smiffy I sincerely hope they will be successful for you both. I've got three final suggestions to offer you:

1. To aid your research I think you might find it highly valuable to visit other members' threads and look at their cats' spreadsheets, especially those of cats receiving Caninsulin/Vetsulin because it may aid your understanding of how the insulin works and how different cats may respond to it. Also it may help you to look at spreadsheets where members have switched from Caninsulin to a gentler insulin (e.g. Lantus) so that you might see for yourself the difference in action of the longer-acting insulins.

2. Again to aid your research, I recommend you read the following peer-reviewed article by Professor Debra Zoran on the physiology and very specific nutritional requirements of cats:

The Carnivore Connection to Nutrition in Cats

3. Most important of all, 'listen' to your cat.

I really have done all I can think of to try to help you by now, Looby, so I'm bowing out. I wish you and Smiffy the very best for the future.


Mogs
.
 
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Looby & Smiify said:
THANKS.... It is morning here now and I have had one almighty fight with Smiffy ... bruised and scratched .... she just sees her food and walks away ... got into the pattern now where she knows I will go up to the bedroom after her ... inject her (which she hardly felt) and then I worry that if she doesn't eat soon she will go Hypo so I am gently trying to coax her out from the furniture ... but the house is so small so it is difficult .... not cluttered - just enough room for essential furniture ..... the scratching happened when I was tyring to get her out to eat ... she is eating now ...... I could wait for her to come down to eat but I tried that last night when the same happened and she took an hour to come down ... if I could draw a plan of the house you would see how difficult it is .....God only knows how I am going to home test ........
Click to expand...
Looby & Smiify said:
@manxcat419 She was all loving last night before her shot .. came and sat on the sofa with me like she always used to (on the back of the sofa) purring and headbut kissing and lettin me fuss her around the head which is the only part of her body that she likes touched and then when it got to food time, she ran upstairs and did what I have just described to you ... this morning she was all soft and purry too and alert and now she is really fed up with me again ...... have a look at the desensitising ritual I used to go through with her in my thread titled "Smiffy hard to inject" ... you can see how we have got to where we are now .... thanks ... have my CPN coming today to see me so I will probably not be on line until much later but would welcome your measured assistance ... have ordered felliway, zlykene and anxitane!!!!
Click to expand...
I think, if Smiffy were my cat, I would try moving away from the desensitising ritual involving food. It sounds as though associating food with her shot may not be the way forward for her if she's running away from her food - she does have to eat as you already know. When you follow her and give her her shot, would she eat immediately afterwards if you left her food right there in her hiding place for her? It isn't ideal, but then neither is having a cat who is scared of her food bowl. Just sometimes with cats, it seems that the harder we try the more they resist - Rosa can be exactly like that and the attitude I had to take with her was that we WERE getting this done. The more matter of fact I was with her and the less coaxing and pleading I did, the better she behaved!! I did the same with testing - we didn't have a set testing place like a lot of people do. I went to where Rosa was, got it done quickly and let her keep hiding if she needed to. These days she's much more chilled about testing - I can get her and bring her to where the testing supplies are and sit her on my lap, but early on I often finished up testing her wedged into a corner between a piece of furniture and the wall because that was where she wanted to be right at that moment! Every cat is different, but it might be worth trying things Smiffy's way to see if it helps. A favorite treat can really help with testing too - for Smiffy it sounds as though that won't be cuddles, but if she has a favorite toy or some kind of food treat that she really loves, letting her have that right after testing might just create the positive association with the testing kit that you're looking for. What I do, even now, with Rosa is get her treat ready before I start doing her medication. She can see the treat, but I don't let her have it until after we're done with meds or fluids or whatever we're trying to achieve. It isn't quite the same as using regular food because a treat usually carries more weight with a cat and they do learn that the faster they co-operate, the faster they get to the "good part". :bighug:
 
manxcat419 said:
I think, if Smiffy were my cat, I would try moving away from the desensitising ritual involving food. It sounds as though associating food with her shot may not be the way forward for her if she's running away from her food - she does have to eat as you already know. When you follow her and give her her shot, would she eat immediately afterwards if you left her food right there in her hiding place for her? It isn't ideal, but then neither is having a cat who is scared of her food bowl. Just sometimes with cats, it seems that the harder we try the more they resist - Rosa can be exactly like that and the attitude I had to take with her was that we WERE getting this done. The more matter of fact I was with her and the less coaxing and pleading I did, the better she behaved!! I did the same with testing - we didn't have a set testing place like a lot of people do. I went to where Rosa was, got it done quickly and let her keep hiding if she needed to. These days she's much more chilled about testing - I can get her and bring her to where the testing supplies are and sit her on my lap, but early on I often finished up testing her wedged into a corner between a piece of furniture and the wall because that was where she wanted to be right at that moment! Every cat is different, but it might be worth trying things Smiffy's way to see if it helps. A favorite treat can really help with testing too - for Smiffy it sounds as though that won't be cuddles, but if she has a favorite toy or some kind of food treat that she really loves, letting her have that right after testing might just create the positive association with the testing kit that you're looking for. What I do, even now, with Rosa is get her treat ready before I start doing her medication. She can see the treat, but I don't let her have it until after we're done with meds or fluids or whatever we're trying to achieve. It isn't quite the same as using regular food because a treat usually carries more weight with a cat and they do learn that the faster they co-operate, the faster they get to the "good part". :bighug:
Click to expand...
Yes I think you're right, this evening I put the bowl down, she ran upstairs, I followed her quietly with bowl pen and treat ..... I injected her with no problem then gave her a treat and then Kerr the bowl of food up there and turned the TV down so that I could hear her munching then went upstairs ... She had stopped eating but had eaten enough so brought the bowl downstairs and she came down about ten minutes later for some more ........ No growling, minimum stress ... The mornings seems to be more difficult ...... Thanks for the advice
 
Critter Mom said:
I think that Jill's post linking to the Suggestions for Advice Givers sticky is timely and helpful.

In addition to my support for all the subjects covered in the Suggestions for Advice Givers sticky I would also like to make the observation that 'agree to disagree' is very much a two-way street. Just as advice givers may need to move on when their repeated efforts to help prove unfruitful, advice seekers need to be respectful and appreciative of the time, energy, and care that advice givers freely and willingly spend trying to help them and also move on to different subjects. (The previous threads will always be there for the advice seeker to refer back to should they wish to reconsider the information provided at some future time.)

In such a spirit, and to avoid further duplication of effort, I suggest other members looking to assist Looby and Smiffy review Looby's posting history to see the extensive help that FDMB members have already kindly provided in terms of: educational links on optimum feline nutrition; general home testing tips; specific videos on how to set up and operate Accu-Chek Aviva glucometers with creative suggestions to aid learning; limitations of fructosamine testing; recommendations on seeking better veterinary support for blood glucose monitoring; use of secondary monitoring techniques and their even greater importance in the absence of home blood glucose monitoring; recommendations to discuss a potential insulin switch with the treating vet, plus considerable input on feline diabetes management best practice.

Refering back to the Suggestions for Advice Givers for a moment, I'd like to specifically focus on the following:
  • Above all, do no harm. Be sure you are familiar with the particular cat's circumstances before giving food and dosing advice. Wrong advice on food and dose can have dire consequences for a cat's health. Don't give generic advice on these issues. Even something as beneficial-sounding as "Put your cat on a low-carbohydrate diet" can result in death if the cat is already getting insulin (yes, it has happened). If you do decide to suggest something risky, outline the potential risks and benefits for the recipient.
  • Don't attempt to diagnose over the Internet, or make blanket assertions about a cat's health status. There's always a possibility that there's something that you don't know about the cat. Be aware that the cat may have other diagnosed or undiagnosed health conditions (such as renal impairment, pancreatitis, hyperthyroid or acromegaly) which may be complicating the situation or causing symptoms which look like diabetes. (Obvious exception: an immediate hypoglycemic episode with symptoms.)
[Emphasis mine]

Again this is a two-way street; just as advice givers need to pay great attention to what is posted by advice seekers so that they might make safe and helpful suggestions so, too, is it incumbent upon the advice seeker to provide clear, consistent and honest appraisals of their cat's behaviours, symptoms, and medical history so that advice givers can better understand the cat's status. Failure to do so is unfair to the people from whom one is seeking assistance as it is impossible to assess the soundness of any suggestion made here in the absence of accurate information.

--------

To Looby,

Members share their experiences here to help educate others and to try to help them to protect their diabetic cats. It is therefore necessary to discuss what the cats need protection from. Endogenous insulin does not come with an OFF switch. It is an uncomfortable and frightening but inescapable truth that insulin overdoses can be fatal; there is no way of getting around that harsh fact. We would be remiss in our duty of care to you, your cat, and other members who may read threads on this forum not to acknowledge this truth nor to discuss methods of minimising the risk. The primary reason we and other reputable feline diabetes support groups around the world advocate home testing so strongly is because it is the best way to protect any cat receiving insulin. Perhaps you may choose not to home monitor blood glucose (not every diabetic pet caregiver does) but at least through the education FDMB offers on the benefits of testing plus the shortcomings and risks inherent in relying instead on alternative monitoring methods you will at least be making an informed choice.

Whichever treatment choices you make for Smiffy I sincerely hope they will be successful for you both. I've got three final suggestions to offer you:

1. To aid your research I think you might find it highly valuable to visit other members' threads and look at their cats' spreadsheets, especially those of cats receiving Caninsulin/Vetsulin because it may aid your understanding of how the insulin works and how different cats may respond to it. Also it may help you to look at spreadsheets where members have switched from Caninsulin to a gentler insulin (e.g. Lantus) so that you might see for yourself the difference in action of the longer-acting insulins.

2. Again to aid your research, I recommend you read the following peer-reviewed article by Professor Debra Zoran on the physiology and very specific nutritional requirements of cats:

The Carnivore Connection to Nutrition in Cats

3. Most important of all, 'listen' to your cat.

I really have done all I can think of to try to help you by now, Looby, so I'm bowing out. I wish you and Smiffy the very best for the future.


Mogs
.[/QUOTEThanks and very erudite ....you have a real talent for writing ....... And by the way I DO look at other threads and above all I DO listen to my beloved cats - as if I wouldn't ........ Over and out I guess - such a shame ....
Click to expand...
 
I'm so glad to hear things went a little better for you this evening. :) I'm sure that having her eat upstairs can't be the ideal solution long term, but for now...well, as long as it works! There is time enough to change things gradually later once she has the idea that she can eat without stress...and she's getting her shots without too much fuss too. I can clearly remember having the food and shot time fight with Rosa early on - the first day I was sent home with insulin, she decided she wasn't going to eat for me at shot time. And I sat on the floor with her for an hour, crying, because I needed her to eat so I could give her a shot. It does get easier - I promise. Soon you'll be in a routine and these early days will feel like a bad dream. :bighug:
 
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