Shinobi numbers....do I increase yet?

Molly Unruh

Molly Unruh

Member Since 2019
I have 2 kitties that are diabetic. Ninja is getting closer to being 'regulated' but Shinobi is still not there. I feared that he was bouncing because the initial dosage was too high, so I reduced it and am working my way back up. How long do I need to wait between dose changes? I don't want to move too quickly and miss the right dose, but also don't want to have him suffering with high sugar. I have not been able to do a full curve, but have gotten a bit of data. Can you offer any advice? He is really struggling with hunger and thirst because of his high numbers so I want to increase the dose as soon as I can safely. Thank you! (Also- look at Shinobi's tab in my spreadsheet because Ninja's data is also in there.)
 

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Oh my! Welcome to the LB&L forum. You have two diabetic kitties! There's another set of 'twins' here now as well. Ittle and Moey.

I'm going to tag a few others who may be able to help you get your Spreadsheets into the correct format. Usually we link it as part of your signature.
@Marje and Gracie
@Wendy&Neko
@Idjit's mom

Have you had a chance to read any of the Yellow stickies at the top of this forum? There are instructions there for setting up your post correctly each day and for your signature and your avatar.
 
Hi Molly and welcome to FDMB. It would be very helpful if you would create a signature with Ninja's and Shinobi's pertinent information that will display with each of your posts. If you care to, you can put additional information in the Personal Details as the signature block is pretty limited space and you want to have room for the spreadsheet link too.

Setting up your signature (light grey text under a post). Here's how:
click on your name in the upper right corner of this page
click on "signature" in the menu that drops down (You will also see Personal Details in this menu)
type the following in the box that opens: kitty's name/age/date of diabetes diagnosis/insulin you're using /glucose meter you're using/what (s)he eats/any other meds or health issues (s)he has. You can add your name, and a geographic location (sometimes the country/time zone matters) Be sure to SAVE when you are finished.

Spreadsheet Instructions
Understanding the Spreadsheet Grid

You can use two tabs for the insulin/testing data..one for Ninja and one for Shinobi.

If you need help with the spreadsheet set up, let us know, there are members who assist or set up for you.

Please tell us what kind of food they eat, how much and when you feed. Proper diet is one of the three basic components of diabetic care and it does affect the blood sugar.
 
Also- my spreadsheet should already be set up, but if it needs adjusting, let me know. As far as food- we are doing Dr. Elsey's. They have canned food in the am and pm after testing and shots, and dry Dr Elsey's out during the in between (they don't hardly eat it at all anymore though). Thank you for the help
 
Molly, is the spreadsheet file a Google docs spreadsheet? I did not open it because I got a warning and I am a big chicken about that.

Do you have a lot of data on the spreadsheet in the file you attached to the first post? The spreadsheet we use here was developed for FDMB and if you can set that one up and plug in data, and can link it to the signature following the instructions, it would be great.

Has Ninja been diabetic since 2014, and Shinobi this year? When was Shinobi diagnosed?
 
When you're inside of your Profile, there's a link there for 'Signature' If you click there and add the url to that, it should display as part of your signature.
 
Idjit's mom said:
Molly, is the spreadsheet file a Google docs spreadsheet?
Click to expand...

It's an Excel Spreadsheet - looks like she downloaded it into Excel, added some data - not tons - and then saved it as a simple Excel file...I opened it and could edit - but I don't want to edit - should be saved into Google docs...I don't recall how to do that...
 
Sue and Luci said:
It's an Excel Spreadsheet - looks like she downloaded it into Excel, added some data - not tons - and then saved it as a simple Excel file...I opened it and could edit - but I don't want to edit - should be saved into Google docs...I don't recall how to do that...
Click to expand...
That's way out of my knowledge base, I just don't know how to do that.
 
Shinobi was diagnosed this summer (end of June?). He was put on Prozinc and didn't do great, so we switched to Lantus a few weeks ago. My vet had him start out on 2 units of Lantus which he responded better to, but after reading more and seeing his numbers bounce when I started testing and using the spreadsheet I worries the dose was too high to begin with. Let me get the file up so everyone can see it. Sorry I'm on my phone at the moment but am switching to a computer
 
Thank you Molly. Lantus is a good insulin for our sugar cats and I am sure you are going to find the information and support you need here.
 
Hello and welcome. A couple comments while you get the spreadsheet working for us. First, cats do not bounce because of too much insulin. They bounce because either they are seeing numbers lower than they are used to, or dropping too fast. The solution for bouncing is twofold. For bouncing due to lower numbers, get them to a dose where they see more lower, but safe numbers, so they get used to them. This means getting them to doses where they see normal blood sugar values. Note that cats can even bounce at yellows if they aren’t used to them. Bouncing due to fast drops is managed by giving them food at appropriate times, to slow the drops.

Lowering the dose is seldom the solution to bouncing. Typically we wait until they earn a dose reduction by going under 90,:if following SLGS. Once we have the spreadsheet data, we can help you with a path forward.
 
Marje and Gracie said:
If you can send me a private message, I’ll get the SS issue fixed for you. To send me a PM, please click on “Marje and Gracie” to the left and then “start a conversation”..I’m happy to help you.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the offer. I believe I fixed it, but if I goofed feel free to let me know.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Hello and welcome. A couple comments while you get the spreadsheet working for us. First, cats do not bounce because of too much insulin. They bounce because either they are seeing numbers lower than they are used to, or dropping too fast. The solution for bouncing is twofold. For bouncing due to lower numbers, get them to a dose where they see more lower, but safe numbers, so they get used to them. This means getting them to doses where they see normal blood sugar values. Note that cats can even bounce at yellows if they aren’t used to them. Bouncing due to fast drops is managed by giving them food at appropriate times, to slow the drops.

Lowering the dose is seldom the solution to bouncing. Typically we wait until they earn a dose reduction by going under 90,:if following SLGS. Once we have the spreadsheet data, we can help you with a path forward.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the clarification and now I know. (I read somewhere that their organs can release stored sugars to combat too much insulin, causing dramatic bounces and putting at big risk for being hypo. I just didn't didn't want to risk an emergency event.) Any advice going forward is appreciated. Thanks!!
 
Molly, I don't know if Wendy is online right now, but I know that others will also read and have input too. I am not as experienced and can't advise on dosing, but I do know that Lantus works better with consistent dosing, not adjusting daily or even every day or two. If you read about the two protocols used here SLGS (Start Low Go Slow) and TR (Tight Regulation), you choose one that you can work with. Then after a period of same dose for so many cycles, the data is reviewed and the dose can then be increased or decreased, usually by 0.25 or 0.5 units so you don't go right by the best dose.

You can feed both cats smaller, more frequent meals as unregulated cats are not able to fully process food and get enough nutrition, and they are very hungry. I don't know if you use a timed feeder but that works well for people at work or for use at night. PetSafe and CatMate both have 2 and 5 dish feeders that you can set to open at different times.
 
That all mirrors what I have read as well. Thank you. I'm always trying to get better and generally do what you have suggested above. Can you tell me where the documents are for the SLGS and TR protocols? Or are there documents this group collectively refers to? Thanks so much!
 
Molly it looks like you had a late, late night. Great job on the Spreadsheet, it just needs a little tweaking so that the 'landing page' - the first page we all see isn't the 'Instructions' - it should be one of the kitties SS's...

So for your next post - please start by going to the very top of this forum - and on the right there's a box that says 'Post a New Thread'. Then in your title you should set it up like this:
10/23 Ninja AMPS ###, Shinobi AMPS###

- if you have a question you can use the '?' mark from the drop down menu - and add that - then write your post and copy and paste the url from this thread as the first line of your new thread - that way everyone will have some history/background and won't ask you all kinds of questions all over again.

Hope this helps! See you on the forum later today :bighug::bighug:
 
Hi and Welcome,
Great job on getting the SS up and running. Hope you will find some time to read through the info in the stickies, please ask any questions if you are unsure of anything, no such thing as a stupid question :)

Idjit's mom said:
The yellow tagged "stickies" are the documents that contain that information. The Basics is good to start with, and there is a sticky about SLGS and TR.
Click to expand...
With regards to TR, if you decide that you would like to go for this option, it is more aggressive, but will get kitty into normal numbers more quickly than SLGS, if you hope for remission, getting kitty into a normal range quickly gives you the best chance of remission (it can happen on SLGS, we have seen it on the board, but it is less common). And even if you dare not hope for remission (I didn't when I first joined, was afraid to jinx George), having high BG is very hard on their general health, especially the kidneys, that was one of the reasons I opted for TR.
All that said, please note that they would both have to be off the dry food altogether to follow TR, one of the prerequisites is that they are on a low carb canned or raw food diet.

I took a look at both sets of numbers.

On the surface it does 'appear' that Ninja is doing better. Many cats have lower BG's at night, and after looking at both SS I would suggest a couple of things regarding testing for both Ninja and Shinobi.
1) Always test before you give an insulin shot, It's really a matter of safety, I've seen kitties go from red midcycle to green at PS. If you are shooting Green, it may be necessary to make adjustments to feeding, and you would want to be sure you had enough supplies on hand to manage the numbers should you need to, as well as time to monitor (with lantus we usually test, feed and then shoot if for some reason you were surprised by a lower than usual number, don't feed, and post for help before shooting)
2) Regardless of which dosing method you decide to follow, data is key to help you make the right dosing choices for your kitties (Is that ninja in the avatar? Cutie pie). With that in mind, I would recommend always getting a test before you shoot, then another couple of tests in each cycle, (am and pm) Kitties can have very different cycles am and pm, George went through a phase where he was high at night and low during the day, then another phase where he was high in the day and low at night (the latter played havoc with my sleep) So in the pm cycle, if nothing else get at least a before bed test. I worked on 7am/7pm schedule and as I usually go to bed at midnightish that allowed me to get a +4/+5.
 
Gill & George said:
Hi and Welcome,
Great job on getting the SS up and running. Hope you will find some time to read through the info in the stickies, please ask any questions if you are unsure of anything, no such thing as a stupid question :)


With regards to TR, if you decide that you would like to go for this option, it is more aggressive, but will get kitty into normal numbers more quickly than SLGS, if you hope for remission, getting kitty into a normal range quickly gives you the best chance of remission (it can happen on SLGS, we have seen it on the board, but it is less common). And even if you dare not hope for remission (I didn't when I first joined, was afraid to jinx George), having high BG is very hard on their general health, especially the kidneys, that was one of the reasons I opted for TR.
All that said, please note that they would both have to be off the dry food altogether to follow TR, one of the prerequisites is that they are on a low carb canned or raw food diet.

I took a look at both sets of numbers.

On the surface it does 'appear' that Ninja is doing better. Many cats have lower BG's at night, and after looking at both SS I would suggest a couple of things regarding testing for both Ninja and Shinobi.
1) Always test before you give an insulin shot, It's really a matter of safety, I've seen kitties go from red midcycle to green at PS. If you are shooting Green, it may be necessary to make adjustments to feeding, and you would want to be sure you had enough supplies on hand to manage the numbers should you need to, as well as time to monitor (with lantus we usually test, feed and then shoot if for some reason you were surprised by a lower than usual number, don't feed, and post for help before shooting)
2) Regardless of which dosing method you decide to follow, data is key to help you make the right dosing choices for your kitties (Is that ninja in the avatar? Cutie pie). With that in mind, I would recommend always getting a test before you shoot, then another couple of tests in each cycle, (am and pm) Kitties can have very different cycles am and pm, George went through a phase where he was high at night and low during the day, then another phase where he was high in the day and low at night (the latter played havoc with my sleep) So in the pm cycle, if nothing else get at least a before bed test. I worked on 7am/7pm schedule and as I usually go to bed at midnightish that allowed me to get a +4/+5.
Click to expand...

Thank you for all the feedback. :) My avatar is actually Shinobi, but both my sugar cats are all black and look similar (and both are named Ninja....Shinobi means ninja in Japanese hahaha!). I always test before I shoot, but my husband cannot get a reading on the boys....so, when he gives their shots, we are SOOL. Grrrr. I will be taking on the lion's share here.

Ninja is pretty good about eating extra when his sugars get lower and not eating when they are high, which is part of the reason I leave out Dr Elsey's dry. (He is just amazing at leading me to the kitchen to let me know something is off.) Shinobi....not so much. Poor baby. This is all new for him, so I know he just feels crappy. I would love to be able to do the TR protocols, but probably will need to work with a SLGS. Thank you for your feedback. I will ask questions as they come up! Now, back to reading the 'stickies' for me :)
 
Molly Unruh said:
Thank you for the offer. I believe I fixed it, but if I goofed feel free to let me know.
Click to expand...
Yes we can see it but your link in your signature is not the correct one. It should end in pubhtml. That allows it to auto update and also keeps scammers on the board from being able to mess with it. I’ll send you a PM.
 
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