? Shelley - is back on Caninsulin, hoping for views on doseage ?

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Anthony

It looks like Shelley will be fairly high for the preshot. This could be from the Caninsulin wearing off before the full 12 hours or some "bouncing" from hitting lower numbers than she has seen for awhile. Even though the numbers today were quite safe, they are lower than they have been lately which can cause the number to bounce up higher. If you are able to I would suggest staying with the 1 unit for now and trying to get a few tests in before you get some sleep tonight. Shelley may have higher numbers for a cycle or a few cycles if she is bouncing, but that is part of the counter-regulatory system the body uses, so not to be too worried at this point.
 
Thank you very much Mary Ann and Karen. Shelley has been very good about it, I must say.
I won't go into it now but since the last test, I have had to take Herbie into the veterinary hospital. I'm hoping he'll be OK, they think he has CRF.
I think it's got to be 1.0u based on the last couple of tests. I will test overnight as best I can.
Thank you to everyone for the superb help and advice!
 
Hope Herbie is going to be okay. CRF is awful :(

Great description there from Tuxedo Mom - bouncing always baffles me!
 
So sorry to hear about your Herbie. If you get full results on any testing done there are people here who have and are dealing with CRF and can give you a wealth of knowledge and experience with dealing with it. Even if Herbie is not FD he is still part of the FDMB family.:bighug: :bighug:

The 1 unit would be the best approach. Shelley may even go higher through the next cycle, but not to worry. If you are able to get a +2 and +3 or +4 test that will give you a good idea where Shelley is going with the next cycle.
 
Tuxedo Mom said:
So sorry to hear about your Herbie. If you get full results on any testing done there are people here who have and are dealing with CRF and can give you a wealth of knowledge and experience with dealing with it. Even if Herbie is not FD he is still part of the FDMB family.:bighug: :bighug:

The 1 unit would be the best approach. Shelley may even go higher through the next cycle, but not to worry. If you are able to get a +2 and +3 or +4 test that will give you a good idea where Shelley is going with the next cycle.
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Tuxedo Mom said:
So sorry to hear about your Herbie. If you get full results on any testing done there are people here who have and are dealing with CRF and can give you a wealth of knowledge and experience with dealing with it. Even if Herbie is not FD he is still part of the FDMB family.:bighug: :bighug:

The 1 unit would be the best approach. Shelley may even go higher through the next cycle, but not to worry. If you are able to get a +2 and +3 or +4 test that will give you a good idea where Shelley is going with the next cycle.
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Thank you very much, so good
of you to say so. Very grateful for all the kind help!
 
Anthony Morgan said:
Thank you very much, so good
of you to say so. Very grateful for all the kind help!
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I have been waiting for Shelley to eat, she has had a small amout, this isn't unusual, perhaps a couple of tablespoons. Has been drinking. Hopefully, OK to shoot, I would have done normally at this stage.
She ate a little more so I injected 1.0u.
 
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I don't know which of the German food you tried, mine used to eat Bozita and Smila but now only like the smila tuna and tuna with chicken. They're fairly stinky and the sardine one is so stinky my boyfriend almost threatened to leave!! Luckily for him, the cats weren't keen either. It might be worth trying. Also Angel likes the purina feline DM (wet one) which is cheaper online than through the vets.

Hoping Herbie's results are clear and Shelly is doing well
Cassandra and Angel x
 
Good morning,
Sorry but I didn't look at the messages after midnight.
+2 17.8
+4 14.5
Will be doing the amps in the next half hour.
Thank you,
Anthony
 
SweetAngel said:
I don't know which of the German food you tried, mine used to eat Bozita and Smila but now only like the smila tuna and tuna with chicken. They're fairly stinky and the sardine one is so stinky my boyfriend almost threatened to leave!! Luckily for him, the cats weren't keen either. It might be worth trying. Also Angel likes the purina feline DM (wet one) which is cheaper online than through the vets.

Hoping Herbie's results are clear and Shelly is doing well
Cassandra and Angel x
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Hi,
Thank you for your kind message. Shelley is quite bright this morning. I will be speaking to the vet later about Herbie.
I tried Granada, Macs, Omm non non but my cats weren't keen.
I haven't tried Smile. Shelley did like the Purina DM but it gave her diarrhea.
I will give the Smila a try though.
Thank you.,

Anthony
 
Anthony

Just got up and saw your post. If you are at 20.8 right now and can be around for testing I would give the 1 unit. It is very close to where you were yesterday morning and Shelley did fine. Also if you can keep the spreadsheet updated then people don't have to read through the comments to see what numbers Shellie has gotten. Thanks!!
 
Hi, thank you, I just injected 1.0u.
Surprised at the big change in 20 minutes though.
I will update the spreadsheet. The thing is, I can post here on my tablet instantly. My laptop is old and takes a while to get going and I can only update the spreadsheet via the laptop at present.
Appreciate you getting back to me!
 
The rising numbers show that the Caninsulin does not appear to be lasting the whole 12 hours and this is why the numbers rise so much at the end of the cycle. With many kitties the insulin fizzles out around +8-+10 hours which seems to be the case with Shelley with the testings you have gotten so far. At this point you can continue testing and see if this is a regular pattern. If this is the case then you might want to consider going to a longer lasting insulin such as Prozinc which is also allowed under the UK cascade rules or Lantus which is another good long lasting insulin. But lets see how the tests go for now.

The only reason I keep suggesting keeping the spreadsheet updated is because it is so much easier to see what is happening by viewing the spreadsheet and it also has the tab with the US number conversions, There are people who use Vetsulin, which is the US equivalent of Caninsulin but the number system is much different than the UK ( or Canadian which I also use) and it is hard for them to "understand" the mmol numbering system so they wouldn't be able to help with advising. This forum is very data driven so the first thing people do is look at the spreadsheet before offering advice. I believe there is an app you can download for the tablet so that you can update the spreadsheet from there. I will tag @Marje and Gracie (our resident spreadsheet guru :) ) and see if she can help you with that. :bighug: :bighug:

Try to get a test at +2 to see how Shelley is doing. Sending prayer that Herbie is doing better today.
 
Tuxedo Mom said:
The rising numbers show that the Caninsulin does not appear to be lasting the whole 12 hours and this is why the numbers rise so much at the end of the cycle. With many kitties the insulin fizzles out around +8-+10 hours which seems to be the case with Shelley with the testings you have gotten so far. At this point you can continue testing and see if this is a regular pattern. If this is the case then you might want to consider going to a longer lasting insulin such as Prozinc which is also allowed under the UK cascade rules or Lantus which is another good long lasting insulin. But lets see how the tests go for now.

The only reason I keep suggesting keeping the spreadsheet updated is because it is so much easier to see what is happening by viewing the spreadsheet and it also has the tab with the US number conversions, There are people who use Vetsulin, which is the US equivalent of Caninsulin but the number system is much different than the UK ( or Canadian which I also use) and it is hard for them to "understand" the mmol numbering system so they wouldn't be able to help with advising. This forum is very data driven so the first thing people do is look at the spreadsheet before offering advice. I believe there is an app you can download for the tablet so that you can update the spreadsheet from there. I will tag @Marje and Gracie (our resident spreadsheet guru :) ) and see if she can help you with that. :bighug: :bighug:

Try to get a test at +2 to see how Shelley is doing. Sending prayer that Herbie is doing better today.
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Very much appreciate you explaining that and thank you for thinking of Herbie.
That is so kind of you. Thank you!
 
Thanks. That is a nice slow drop from the +2 to +3.5 which is nice to see. Not too big a drop as the cycle goes along, which is good.
 
At +4 got 10.2, fed some Gourmet pate. I am watching her very closely and testing every half hour just for now.
Thanks for keeping an eye on things!
 
Anthony Morgan said:
At +4 got 10.2, fed some Gourmet pate. I am watching her very closely and testing every half hour just for now.
Thanks for keeping an eye on things!
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The numbers are looking very good. It appears the food may have pushed the numbers up a bit but not too much, which is useful information. I would wait until +5 for another test and see where it is going from there.
 
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Wonderful numbers and nice and flat. Just what you want to see. At this point try not to be feeding much since Shellie doesn't need food to keep her numbers up. You can probably wait a few hours for the next test, since she should be at or close to her nadir (lowest number) now. It would be interesting to see when the numbers start to rise again, which would give you an idea of how long a duration she is getting from the Caninsulin.

The early drop at +2 is not unusual with Caninsulin. With some kitties it drops the numbers quite fast when it starts hitting. "Usually" onset will be around +2 and nadir will be around +4-+5, but this can vary with each kitty and even from day to day. Shellie is looking good today !!
 
Tuxedo Mom said:
Wonderful numbers and nice and flat. Just what you want to see. At this point try not to be feeding much since Shellie doesn't need food to keep her numbers up. You can probably wait a few hours for the next test, since she should be at or close to her nadir (lowest number) now. It would be interesting to see when the numbers start to rise again, which would give you an idea of how long a duration she is getting from the Caninsulin.

The early drop at +2 is not unusual with Caninsulin. With some kitties it drops the numbers quite fast when it starts hitting. "Usually" onset will be around +2 and nadir will be around +4-+5, but this can vary with each kitty and even from day to day. Shellie is looking good today !!
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Thank you very much for all your help. I am going to see the vet in an hour or so to see how Herbie is doing, so that will give us a break. Cant help wondering though, if the numbers might have gone a little too low without the food I gave her?
 
Anthony Morgan said:
Thank you very much for all your help. I am going to see the vet in an hour or so to see how Herbie is doing, so that will give us a break. Cant help wondering though, if the numbers might have gone a little too low without the food I gave her?
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That is possible. It is all part of the trial and error stage and the getting to know how Shellie reacts to different foods at different times in the cycle. There are some basic "rules" for giving insulin, but every kitty reacts differently so that is why data is so useful.

Hoping for some good news about Herbie. If you remember, ask for a copy of whatever tests they have done so far. There are some people on here that could give some good information/advice. :bighug: :bighug: :bighug:
 
Hi Anthony, sorry for late reply, been at work all day. I am glad to see that Mary Ann has been keeping an eye here and her advice and suggestions are always excellent, so I don't really have much to add. I do know it's scary when you start seeing lower numbers but there is a difference between "lower" and "too low"... it just takes time to develop a different mindset!
Hoping for some good news about Herbie and remember, there is also support available for him here if necessary...this board and its members are a veritable encyclopaedia of feline health.
Will look back again later.
 
Thank you very much!
I have picked Herbie up from the Vets.
He has been on a drip and started eating again but the vet isn't sure what's wrong.
They have found protein in his urine which suggest CKD but he is able to concentrate his urine which is not consistent with that.
They want me to get a larger urine sample so it can be sent to the lab.
So its all rather uncertain at the moment.
Herbie is about 15 but behaves more like 5. Last Thursday was the first time I had seen a change in him when he suddenly became lethargic and stopped eating. Saturday he seemed OK again, then Sunday came to a stop again.
Thanks again, Anthony
 
Thanks for the update Anthony, was wondering how things are. Not sure what to say about Herbie, it could be all sorts of things, not necessarily serious.. think positive, hopefully the vet will give his symptoms some thought and come up with some answers for you.
Take care, you have a lot on your plate!
 
Thanks for the update. Did the vet do any bloodwork on Herbie? Sometimes symptoms can be indicative of different problems and a full bloodwork and urinalysis is the best way to start. Also if the vet used the chemstick dipstick and Herbie's urine was quite concentrated prtoein in the urine could show as a higher amount. That is why a CBC and urinalysis can tell so much more. As far as the nausea Herbie could have had an off day or had some stomach acids or had a mild pancreatic attack. Fingers crossed that Herbie will continue to improve.
 
Tuxedo Mom said:
Thanks for the update. Did the vet do any bloodwork on Herbie? Sometimes symptoms can be indicative of different problems and a full bloodwork and urinalysis is the best way to start. Also if the vet used the chemstick dipstick and Herbie's urine was quite concentrated prtoein in the urine could show as a higher amount. That is why a CBC and urinalysis can tell so much more. As far as the nausea Herbie could have had an off day or had some stomach acids or had a mild pancreatic attack. Fingers crossed that Herbie will continue to improve.
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Yes, they did bloodwork too, I forgot to ask for the report but will ask tomorrow. They have given me some Zantac syrup to put in his food but I wasn't sure why, so perhaps it is stomach acids. I don't think I asked all the right questions this time.
Having two poorly cat's is a bit exhausting
Thank you for the good wishes!
 
Please do ask for a copy of the bloodwork as well as the urinalysis. The urea and creatinine levels and bun/creatinine ratio can tell a lot. As well if the liver enzymes (ALT and ALP) are high that "could" show a pancreatic problem. Once you have all the bloodwork, there are a couple of people on here who are very good at reading lab results and you can get their input. :bighug: :bighug:
 
Diana&Tom said:
Thanks for the update Anthony, was wondering how things are. Not sure what to say about Herbie, it could be all sorts of things, not necessarily serious.. think positive, hopefully the vet will give his symptoms some thought and come up with some answers for you.
Take care, you have a lot on your plate!
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Thank you Diana, I appreciate that!
 
Tuxedo Mom said:
Please do ask for a copy of the bloodwork as well as the urinalysis. The urea and creatinine levels and bun/creatinine ratio can tell a lot. As well if the liver enzymes (ALT and ALP) are high that "could" show a pancreatic problem. Once you have all the bloodwork, there are a couple of people on here who are very good at reading lab results and you can get their input. :bighug: :bighug:
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Thank you, I will try and do that tomorrow.
 
Really feel for you - 2 poorly cats will be expensive as well as exhausting. At least Herbie is home and hope he continues eating and they can work out what is wrong with him. Some good numbers on Shelley as well :)
 
Sootyca said:
Really feel for you - 2 poorly cats will be expensive as well as exhausting. At least Herbie is home and hope he continues eating and they can work out what is wrong with him. Some good numbers on Shelley as well :)
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Thank you Karen, I appreciate that.
Kind regards,
Anthony
 
Looks like a good curve yesterday -she didn't increase much between the +8 and +12 and nice blue numbers during the day. Doing well on the 1 unit.
 
Yes thank you, I was apprehensive about the sudden drop at +2 but it turned out to be good. I will update today's numbers soon but have been catching up with some jobs whilst things are calmer.
Regards,
Anthony
 
I did get Herbie's bloodwork;

Unless stated the values were normal

Urea was high 12.7
SDMA. high 16
Potassium high 5.94
Total protein low 53.8
Albumin low 22.3
Calcium low 2.04
Lymphocytes absolute low 0.11

The urinanalysis was not available as it was done in house. A lab analysis is planned but I haven't been able to collect a sample yet.
Any comments would be much appreciated.
Herbie has been OK today. Eating a little and enjoying some sunshine, if not quite as lively as usual.
Thank you!
 
Yes...I'd be happy to look at the labs. Just walked in and getting dinner on and critters tended so I'll be back later tonight if that is ok? Thanks for your patience.
 
Marje and Gracie said:
Yes...I'd be happy to look at the labs. Just walked in and getting dinner on and critters tended so I'll be back later tonight if that is ok? Thanks for your patience.
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Thank you very much, that is very kind of you.
The vet also said that Herbie had protein in his urine which suggested CKD but he was concentrating his urine and that wasn't usually the case with CKD.
Just to clarify, this thread is about Shelley, Herbie just happened
to become ill as I was discussing with members and he is not diabetic.
Kind regards, Anthony
 
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