Scary High Numbers

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Janet Qatar

Janet Qatar

Member Since 2015
Hello Snafu was diagnosed on the 8th Sept- he has been at home around ten days from the vets. I have been home testing him, that not been so easy alone he does not cooperate as the cats on video's but we are managing to muddle through. Insulin is Canunsulin 40iu/MI2.5ml he started on 1 unit his initial numners were in the 500's so after a week the vet advised to increase the dose to 1.5 and now he is on two units - still this week when I test him priot to his food his numbers are morning before food 495 and evening before food 510
He is on Royal Canine Diabetic dry good - 35g at 8am and 35 g at 8pm (which is a big change for him as he is used to being fed at 6am and 4pm ) so he is behaving like a savage and will try to jump on kitchen tables and bins if he gets a chance. His weight has dropped with the one week vet stay - he weighs 5.6kg (was overweight) they say he still needs to lose more .

I am very scared of these numbers as I am told and have read that the normal range is from 74 -159 mg
in fact I am so confused I am trying to read as much as possible but I worry about him all the time .

Any advice is welcomed. I also read that dry food is bad and told my vet this and she did not agree.
 
Hi Janet. It's good you are learning to test Snafu-it will get easier! How often do you test? You need to get a test before you feed, and also a few tests during the cycle so you can see how low the insulin drops his glucose. Sometimes they drop low and then bounce up to a high number. You won't know if this is happening without those mid cycle tests. The mid cycle tests also tell you if you need to increase or decrease your dose. As for feeding, the dry Royal Canin is high in carbs. Most dry food is. Try to find a low carb canned food usually Pate type, not sure what brands they have in your part of the world. Just be sure to be testing his BG before, and as you transition to the canned food because his glucose could drop quite a bit from the food change alone. Snafu will stay ravenous until you get his BG under control. I'm still having that problem with my cat too, so I can sympathize! Good luck!
 
As Sharon says, those numbers in the middle of the cycle are important. In some cats, Canninsulin can be harsh - hitting early in the cycle, bringing them low and then bouncing back up. And sometimes it only lasts 8 hours. But we have had cats who do well on it. Testing him 2/3 hours after the shot, then 5/7 hours after and 8/9 hours after should give you some good info. When and how fast do his levels start down? When is the lowest part of the cycle? When does he start back up?

Share with us your issues with hometesting. Sometimes it's a matter of finding his favorite treat - only give it when testing and give it every time, successful or not. The things that helped us the most were heating the ear warm enough and using a lancet that makes a big enough hole - 25/27 gauge may work best at first.

Here is a website by a vet. She explains why wet low carb food is best.

www.catinfo.org
 
Hi Sharon, Thank IMG_1463.JPG IMG_1464.JPG you so much for the reply. I am testing him twice a day just before his feed, so I test around 7.45am and evening 6.30pm but his feed is at 8pm
What is meant by doing a few test during the cycle ? does that mean I test him in the middle of the day ?
I have found a brand of food, I have it here, just checked the packaging its Australian- its called Natures Gift its organic and its I think a pate type no gravy square foil tin (various flavours Duck etc..) I have just found a site and emailed to OZ for an answer about contents as I want to get this right it appears to be mainly protein from the labelling it does nto mention carbs at all .. so maybe this will be good for him and I could switch to this instead, Im sure he would prefer it to the kibble of Royal Canin which I am sure hurts him and makes him drink more,, which cant be good for his diabetes.. and maybe as you say this would be a start in seeing a reduction in these way over the top scary high numbers ..He has always been a greedy eater, I just put that down to him being a stray .. doorstep cat .. its a big problem in this part of the world ...but now he will steal food of our plates ...
So do you suggest I change food immediately and see if that helps ? But still keep up with the blood tests of course and check in the middle of the day ? I really e appreciate your help and advice and hope your kitty is doing well lots of best wishes form Snafu and Janet
 
Glad you found a food for Snafu! I would change his food gradually so as not to upset his stomach. If you can add those mid day(or night) tests as Sue mentioned above, that will give you an idea of how low he's going so the dose can be adjusted when necessary. This is especially important as you're changing his food. If you can set up a spreadsheet, (someone here can help you, just ask) so everyone can see Snafus numbers and help you when you need it.

I know what you mean about cats in that part of the world. My friends husband lived there for awhile and adopted 2 cats that he brought home with him. He used to feed a whole group of them.
 
Hi Janet. I'm still a newbie, myself, so I can understand the confusion you are going through.

It seems that many vets really know very little about the foods they suggest or "prescribe" for diabetic kitties. Most of the dry foods are very high in carbohydrates, which causes blood glucose to rise. Your best bet is a low-carb canned food, as @Sharon14 said I don't know what might be available where you live, but www.catinfo.org has a list of popular canned foods and their analysis; it is a very good resource for finding a food that is lower in carbs. Any diet changes should be done slowly and with the knowledge and support (if not agreement) of your vet because it will affect Snafu's blood glucose. You and your vet need to be on the lookout for numbers that indicate a change in dose should be made, so you avoid hypoglycemia, which can be potentially deadly. I don't mean to scare you, but you do need to be aware so you can discuss it with your vet.

On the bright side, diet change, along with the great advice from everyone here and a new vet, has seen my Squallie drop from 7 units of insulin 2x daily down to 1 unit 2x a day!

It looks like you do not have a spreadsheet set up for Snafu. It would be very helpful to you, and to folks here, to be able to refer to a spreadsheet when you have questions or need advice. There are lots of people here (sadly, I'm not one of them) who can help you set one up. Just start a new thread titled something like "Need help setting up a Spreadsheet" and you'll get lots of assistance!

Hope this has helped a little, and never hesitate to reach out to this forum for help and advice. There are many wonderful people here with a tremendous wealth of knowledge who are always more than willing to help you!!!

Welcome to the club! :):):)
Lucy
 
Welcome to the FDMB! This is the best place you never wanted to be if you have a sugarcat!!

Where in the world do you live Janet? That will make a difference in what foods are available to you

You do NOT want to change food abruptly ....not only can it cause stomach upset and diarrhea, unless you're testing, lowering the carbs can drastically lower the amount of insulin needed.

Caninsulin isn't a great insulin for cats because in most cats it can be very harsh, dropping them quickly and then wearing off too soon. Lantus, Levemir and ProZinc are the 3 insulins that are gentler and longer acting. We have another fairly new member here that just recently switched from Novolin (another one of the harsher insulins) to Lantus and if you look at this spreadsheet, you'll see the difference in Harry's numbers! We can't guarantee it'll work like this with every cat, but it's something to consider.

No matter which insulin you use though, you do want to get tests in mid-cycle....we want to know how low the insulin is taking them since that's a very important part in determining dose.

Keep asking questions!! The people here are great about sharing their knowledge and experience!
 
Hi Janet! Welcome to the group! Since a couple people have mentioned it, I thought I would chime in with a link that might help.

Here is the link with directions to set up a spreadsheet. This is used to track the numbers you get from your home testing. Keeping it up to date helps everyone on here to see what's happening with Snafu and give better advice when you have a questions. As others have said, if you have any trouble getting it set up, just ask and someone can help you.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/
 
Many thanks for all the helpful advice - I have now from today made some changes based on the advice- morning reading was 488 before food - I have changed the food to an organic pate type food from Australia - I've had a reply from them and they confirm its low carb high protein. Snafu much preferred that to the dry food. He had his insulin shot of 2 units at 8.30am - Ive done a mid cycle test at 2.30pm and the reading was 120 !! so he is normal range . I don't know if this means the insulin is working or is this due to the food change ?
I have called my vet clinic to see if they have Lantus, they do not stock, but another vet clinic has this- should I change to Lantus ? as from what I can understand it seems much better ? Is it ok to just change ?
I have downloaded the spreadsheet but have not had time as I'm at work to fully understand how to use it yet.
Feeling more positive for Snafu.
 
120 is a wonderful number. Now make sure you get a test before you feed him his dinner too. I can't advise on dosage, I don't have enough experience, but you want to make sure he's rising and above 200 before you shoot. Not sure of the time difference between here and there, but if you're not sure post here before you give his shot and someone will help you.
 
Wow! That is a HUGE drop! So now you want to be really careful about monitoring because changing to a lower-carb food can cause the BG numbers to drop pretty far all by itself Which means the insulin then adds to that and can bring on hypoglycemia. So check the posts about hypo so that you know what to do in case it happens, and then make sure you're getting some mid-cycle numbers to keep Snafu safe during the food transition.
 
Lantus is a human insulin that's available at any human pharmacy, so you should be able to ask for a script from your vet and take it anywhere you want...warning though, it's expensive (at least in the US it is) Have no idea how much it would be in Qatar!

If you change, let us know. Lantus has 2 protocols we use here and the starting dose has a formula we generally use for determining where to start at, but we also take into consideration the dose the cat is currently on using a different insulin

Yes, lowering the carbs in the food can have a huge impact on the numbers...we've seen it drop it 200 points just from the diet change, so it's important that you test often to make sure he stays safe

If you have problems or questions with the spreadsheet, please let us know! We can help set it up for you, or explain how to use it!
 
Hello again thanks for advice - I have now tested evening before dinner and the reading was 258 so do I still give him his shot of 2 units ?
I will try to figure out how to do the spreadsheet, waiting for my daughter to get home from the UK so she can assist .
 
Hi Janet, I don't know enough about dosing to help you, but it seems that with the change in food, Snafu had a huge drop this AM, from 488 to 120. I'm thinking you need to give less, but again, I don't know enough to be sure. Can you wait a bit and see if someone else can advise? Perhaps @Chris & China?
 
Hi Chris & Sugar, we live In Qatar in the Middle East. I have changed his food and seen drastic changes in the numbers today . So I will discuss this at his vet follow up visit tomorrow and I will insist to her that he will not eat dry food as she precribed for him, as from my limited knowledge and the vast knowledge og the wonderful team here I can see this is no good for him...
Im going to get on top of this we will win... thanks for all advice
 
I'm not familiar enough with using Caninsulin to be of a lot of use, but no, I wouldn't give the same 2U you were giving when his Pre-shot numbers were in the 400's now that he's in the 200's

I'd at least cut it in half and only give 1U ....and of course keep testing to keep him safe
 
Thanks so much for the reply, I will do that now and follow up with the vet tomorrow, he still howls for more food...
 
Until his blood glucose is better controlled, he will need to eat more than usual. Our diabetics are actually starving to death because without insulin, no matter how much they eat, the glucose can't get into the cells

Think of insulin as a "key" and there's a big lock on the outside of each cell.....no matter how much glucose is flowing in the bloodstream, without the "key", it can't get past the lock so the cell isn't getting the nutrition it needs....so they eat more trying to compensate and "feed" the cells

That's why even though our sugarcats eat huge amounts of food, they continue to lose weight

As he gets better controlled, his appetite should come down
 
Chris & China said:
I'm not familiar enough with using Caninsulin to be of a lot of use, but no, I wouldn't give the same 2U you were giving when his Pre-shot numbers were in the 400's now that he's in the 200's

I'd at least cut it in half and only give 1U ....and of course keep testing to keep him safe
Click to expand...
I know I'm late too this conversation but, if you have not already given your kitty his shot, I would recommend more like 0.5 unit. Caninsulin can be very harsh and bring on sudden large, fast drops in BR. Better to err on the side of caution till you see how he's going to do on a new dose. Just my 2-cents-worth. :):)
 
Uh....the spreadsheet is right but the numbers aren't....LOL

You've got numbers like 10,188 as test results.....they don't go that high! Anything over 600 will just read "HI" on a meter, so not sure what you're doing

You've got her Pre-shot this morning as 8532...earlier you had said it was 258

In the AMPS and PMPS cells, that's where you put the tests you get before shooting in the morning and evening

In the U column, it's the number of Units you shot (you have 551 on 9/19's U column!!)

The + cells are for number of hours since the last shot, so if you get a test 4 hours after the morning shot, it would go in the +4 cell on the AMPS side....if you get a test 8 hours after the shot, it goes in the +8 cell....once you get past +11, you're ready to start the next cycle
 
As for where it goes, when you're ready, you put the link to your spreadsheet in your signature box....like where you have
"Caninsulin 40iu/MI 2.5ml 2 unit twice a day - diagnosed 8/sept/2015
daily reading in excess of 500 -food changed to Natures Gift low carb 100g twice a day" now

It can also be helpful to go ahead and put your name/Snafu's name there just so we know....also, the type of meter you're using is good to put into the signature (look below my post and you'll see what kind of info I have for China and me)

To edit the signature, click on your name at the top right side and choose "Signature"...a new box will pop up to enter the information you want there and then just click "save"
 
OOps I think I made a mess of that one .. I will try again at my office with help in the morning, I have been doing this for the whole eveing and its 11pm now..Thanks for your help its great to have such good advice when its needed :)
 
I think there are 2 versions I am on the world one not the US one on that you should find correct details . I hope with fingers crossed ...
 
ahhh..I see what you did!!

You're entering US numbers on the World side and then it's converting them!!

The rest of the world uses mmol/L as their scale...the US uses mg/dl

World numbers would be numbers like 14.33....which would then "convert" on the US spreadsheet as 258 (to convert mmol/L to mg/dl, you just multiply by 18)

What you did was enter 258 into the World scale, so on the US side it multiplied it by 18 and gives us the 4464 that I see in the +9 cell

You entered US numbers on the World scale, so when I go to look at the US scale, they're all multiplied by 18

Normal BG numbers on the World scale would be 2.8 to 6.7 (50 to 120 on the US scale)
 
I think that I have now corrected the spreadsheet. However, I am still confused, I have changed the food from dry to wet low carb he gets 100g ( a square box small at 8am ) then he gets his shot. His next meal the same thing is at 8pm the same thing. But he seems starving and is jumping in the trash to get out the empty packet. As was mentioned we are starving them, does that mean I should give him more food ?
I had my vet visit today but the regular vet was not on duty so this was kind of a wasted visit , we just did a mid cycle blood test and the test showed a result at 4pm of 500 !! Im so confused ....the vet just said that I must continue with the insulin at 2 units and that next Saturday (as its holidays in this part of the world Eid) we will do a blood test for ketones or something . The vets still dont understand about dry food . Ive printed all my research for them.
 
Your spreadsheet numbers now look better, lol, but any idea why all the boxes are black? In theory, their color should correspond to the color of the block at the top with the range therein. @Chris & China can probably help you with that, I only know how to go in and change each one manually.

My kitty is always hungry when his BG is either very high or very low. Sometimes giving small meals throughout the day can help combat this; I'm lucky enough to be home with Squallie all day but for those who aren't so lucky there are timed food dispensers that you can buy to accomplish the same thing.

A test for ketones is a good thing, you should definitely have that done! You can also test for ketones at home. Ketone test strips for urine testing are available almost anywhere her, but I don't know about your part of the world. They are easy to use and a good tool to have in your diabetic kit.

It's amazing how little it seems most vets know about foods for diabetic cats! My vet got very angry at me when I took Squallie off the very expensive, high-carb food she recommended. When I tried to explain that it was high in carbs that weren't good for a diabetic cat I was told that this was food made especially for diabetics and that the low-carb canned food I had switched him to was "giving him junk food, like McDonald's." Well, that junk food saw his BG drop considerably, and his insulin go down from 7 units twice a day to around 1 unit 2x daily! He also has much less waste in the litterbox, and it has practically no odor at all anymore. And I now have a new vet! Hopefully your vet will read the information you gave him/her and take the time to really look into it!
 
Hi Janet I took a look at your spreadsheet. Yesterday you said Snafu was at 258 before you fed in the evening. On your spreadsheet you have it at +9 instead of PMPS. Was the 258 taken 9 hours after the morning shot, or 12 hours, just before feeding? Try to get tests at PMPS, 12 hours after AMPS. That way we can see what his glucose levels are before he eats and gets his insulin. His numbers yesterday look good. As you will see, it takes awhile for them to level out, but I think with the change in food, you are on your way.
 
Hi Janet, just realized your spreadsheet is set up so that anyone can add to or edit it! You probably should see if someone can help you fix it so that others only view it. Again, I'm sure @Chris & China can likely help you! Shouldn't be a big problem. :) Glad you have one up and running!:):):)
 
Hi Janet!!

I see your problems...sent you a private conversation so we can get your spreadsheet fixed up. Look at the top right for "inbox" and you should have my message there

As for feeding, until you get him better controlled, he's going to be hungry, so there's no reason to limit his food too much. Most of us feed mini-meals instead of 2 big meals twice a day (it's easier on the pancreas anyway) so if you can, there's no reason you shouldn't feed him more than twice a day. His appetite will come down as his numbers get better.

Just don't feed for the 2 hours immediately before it's shot time..Now since you're using Caninsulin, you'd want to test, feed and shoot about 20-30 minutes later because when Caninsulin "hits", it hits hard so you want him to have food in him. After those "Pre-shot" tests, it's OK to feed again until 2 hours before the next shot BUT it's probably best to try to get all the food you want him to have in before about +6 because Caninsulin, besides being harsh, also usually wears off sooner than Lantus or ProZinc (which last more like 12 hours) and you don't want to be adding carbs when the insulin is already starting to wear off

Have you asked your vet about possible using Lantus? It's a human insulin, so should be available where you are. ProZinc is a veterinary insulin, but I don't know if you have access to it in Qatar
 
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