Sammi and I are only just now trying to figure this all out..

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ClaireEnunciate

Member Since 2023
Hello everyone,
This post has been a struggle to write. I naturally have a lot of information to exposit about my situation and am struggling to keep it objective and not incidentally end up with a wall of text in which important information about my darling cat and his situation is lost in a flood of my personal feelings and turmoil. Lol.
Thank you in advance for your patience, I’ll try to keep this organized and concise as possible.

My cat:

His name is Sammi. He wins “best kitty award” literally every day without even trying. He is a neutered male of approximately 14 years of age and I’ve had him since he was maybe 6 weeks old. He was diagnosed diabetic in July of 2020. Nearly all of his teeth have been removed and he has neuropathy.

Insulin:

Lantus Glargine, currently 1.5U twice daily- Likely needs adjustment. His starting dose in 2020 was 3U, and has been as high as 9U under veterinary advisement in the past.

Meter:

Relion Premier, formerly was using an Alphatrak because of course no one told me I had the option to not go broke paying for test strips. It’s literally thanks to FDMB I’ve made the conversion to a human meter, and I would not go back. The Alphatrak was a buggy POS to begin with, and I swear at least half the strips were defective on arrival. I'm still angry about this particular point.. The strips being so expensive definitely made me conservative about testing Sammi as much as I should have been over the years. It really was never impressed upon me how important home testing was and how often I needed to be doing it until I ran into the resources here.

Diet:

Like so many others, I was advised by my veterinarian to go with the dry Purina DM formula. Of course I voiced concerns about this once Sammi had to have so many teeth removed, but I was basically told that so long as he was eating- Even just swallowing kibble whole; This was a good result.This worked fine up until recently.. (details to follow later.) Sammi has always been a devotee of kibble and likes to graze throughout the day rather than eating a few larger meals. He can be a rather picky eater. Frequently turns his nose up at all manner of things I’m pretty sure almost any other cat would inhale. Kibble is left out all day for him to graze on as he sees fit, but I have begun offering him two small meals of wet food at shot times to make sure he’s eating enough to receive insulin. Fancy Feast Grilled (with gravy) was the first thing I could readily find nearby that he would eat.. Although he mostly just eats the gravy. I do want/need advice on better wet foods to try him on; It’s just a matter of finding something he’ll reliably eat when it’s offered. I will keep the kibble on deck regardless.

July 2020 to September 2023...

I relied exclusively upon my veterinarian. He’d tell me when to test, when to do a curve, analyze the numbers and tell me what adjustments to make. He made it so easy and the communication was so expedient that it just never really dawned on me how little I really understood about what was going on. Adding to my false sense of security, Sammi has always just been so easy to deal with.. Best kitty award every day, like I said. He was seemingly always eating adequately, always available with no fuss for his shots.. He had exactly two mild to moderate hypo incidents the entire span of time between July 2020 to September 2023; Both of which were addressed by the veterinarian with home testing analysis and dose alteration immediately. I really had no idea what “shooting blind” was, that I was doing it TWICE A DAY FOR YEARS, and how easily/quickly things could go badly doing so. I’m so disappointed in myself and the state of veterinary medicine for letting me do this. The last time I gave my former vet a curve, we adjusted Sammi’s dose to 5U

Mid September 2023..

Sammi, my second cat Ninja, and I moved from Canada down to Texas USA. Yes, my poor cats were stuck in a car with me for 40 hours. Did they earn “best kitty awards” on that trip despite every reason they were given not to? YES they did. I truly would have liked to have made this move in a way that accommodated them better, but this is just how things had to be.. I set them up with food/water in the backseat of my 4 door car with a litterbox in the floorboard. They surfed around between the backseat, the passenger seat, and my lap for the whole trip.

Early October 2023

Sammi is still on 5U twice daily at this point. It was always part of the plan to get Sammi a new veterinarian pretty soon after we moved. It just wasn’t at the very top of the list because I still had plenty of insulin on hand. Just before I got to that particular bullet point on my priority list, disaster struck. Sammi had the worst hypo event I’ve ever seen. I literally thought I was going to lose him that night. I’m still not even sure if it was a hypo incident, because I was giving him corn syrup and sugar water at 10 minute intervals for nearly 4 hours with no major signs of improvement. He was:
-Obviously disoriented, walking in circles
-Hyperventilating
-Foaming at the mouth
-Occasionally hissing
-Eventually just laying on the floor rapidly breathing.

I had only 4 Alphatrak test strips left, 2 of which may have been defective and 2 more that gave me readings of around 80. I’m still not sure that POS meter ever really worked. I ran to the closest vet office the second they opened. I actually beat the staff there to open the clinic, lol. Of course, by the time I got there, the worst of his symptoms had abated and he just looked exhausted. They did bloodwork, which included a fructosamine test. I unfortunately did not receive a copy of those results, but when the new vet went over them with me, he indicated that nothing from the bloodwork gave any cause for concern. I told him we had just made an extensive move not long ago, and additionally there had been a severe hailstorm earlier that day- Both of which could have potentially affected Sammi’s eating. The vet did not advise me to change anything about Sammi’s diet or dose, so I didn’t. (I was still trusting veterinary expertise exclusively at this stage. Really wish I had woken up and gotten a clue here.)

Early November 2023..

Still on 5U. After the scare in October, I had at least begun to understand that I really needed to try to get on top of Sammi’s care and try to educate myself far more about it. Hunting around for resources, I found FDMB and amidst complete and absolute information overwhelm, found out that I could get a human meter and actually afford strips to test Sammi more often. I went out and got these materials the next day, made myself a little reference sheet of number ranges, and put together a little hypo-kit. Good thing, too.. Not but a few days later, Sammi had another severe hypo incident not unlike the one he had previously. The new Relion meter said 84-89 during the worst of the episode. Although this one didn’t last quite as long, it didn’t scare me any less. Enough is enough, I’m done leaving his health to chance and veterinary expertise at this point; I have to be more involved.

I know I’m not yet doing it all right, but I’m learning more every day. As of the 7th of November, I have started a spread sheet and am testing Sammi before every insulin shot. I know I need to do BG curves to actually hone in on and refine his dose, but starting out I’ve been operating on the following basic principles:
-I must know Sammi has eaten, or he does NOT get a shot.
-Some insulin is probably better than no insulin (assuming numbers aren’t dangerously low)
-I need to get him reliably eating a generally consistent amount of food before I try to do a BG curve- I need to find a dose that I can consistently give him for close to a week before I do a curve and try to make adjustments

Sammi’s eating habits have obviously changed, and I need to make sure I’ve got a handle on that before I can really manage his disease. I’ve made this my fixation presently, because the sooner that’s figured out, the sooner I can start working on the rest. I’d definitely appreciate some recommendations on wet foods to integrate into his diet that can do more for him than the Fancy Feast gravy he’s currently enjoying. He isn’t losing weight or exhibiting true inappetence, I just think he’s eating less than he used to. And.. He is somewhat overweight to begin with, so maybe this is a good thing in the long term. There are more notes about all this on the spreadsheet which I’ve hopefully linked correctly in my signature.

I’m paranoid due to the recent hypo incidents, I’m nervous because this is all a lot to take on and learn suddenly, and just really scared that I’m overthinking the wrong things and missing something obvious that needs my attention. Another set of eyes and some thoughts could make all the difference.

How is Sammi doing right now?

Seemingly? Better than I’ve seen him in a long time. He’s got more energy, he’s extremely cuddly and just adorable as all heck 24/7. Isn’t drinking or using the litterbox excessively.. No obvious causes for concern other than making sure his food intake is steady and getting his dosage correct and consistent.

Thank you so much to anyone who has the time to look all this over and give me some thoughts and advice!
 
Welcome and thank you for setting up your signature and spreadsheet!

I’ll read though all the info later today more carefully, but for now I wanted to point out a few things. You’re dosing by the preshot numbers since those are the only tests you’re doing currently and that’s not how we dose here, most vets do too btw. We dose by the lowest the dose takes your cat in a 12-hour cycle. Do you think you could try to get at least 2 more tests in daily? Lantus typically peaks around +6 so a test around +5,+6 would be helpful. We also like to see an evening test like around +2 but basically before you go to be to get a sense of where he’s headed for the evening. A lot of cats tend to go lower overnight. I think you’re giving a token dose under 200 right? Is the “regular dose” 1.5? Lantus is a depot style insulin, meaning it takes several days before you see the impact of a dose. Our dosing methods have you hold the initial dose 5-7 days (depending on the blood sugar results and dosing method being used), before you think about increasing.

What can be happening with those high preshot numbers is what we call bouncing or his body working to protect himself from too much insulin and from going too low. Here is our definition of bouncing:
Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast.The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". *Usually*, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles).

I recommend you read all the Yelp sticky notes on the Lantus forum, especially the one about the 2 dosing methods we use here: https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/lantus-levemir-biosimilars.9/

For food options here’s a FOOD CHART have a look on this chart and choose foods that are under 10%. Brands folks tend to like are Weruva, Tiki, Ziwi Peak but it’s really about what he’ll eat. Bobo only eats FF so I’m stuck with that.

This is an excellent site for diabetic cats…it has been around for more than 25 years and has very experienced people to help you.

Keep asking lots of questions.
 
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Welcome to FDMB.

I'm sorry you found us for such inauspicious reasons but nonetheless, we're glad you did find us. Please be aware that the front end of this learning curve is huge -- expect to be overwhelmed. Most of us will add to your being overwhelmed by offering tons of information -- we're "generous" that way. However, you can let us know that we're swamping you. Also, ask questions. We're here to help.

Testing is one of the points we encourage and appreciate. Experienced members are very reticent to provide guidance without seeing numbers to guide their decision making. Ale has made a good point. Lantus dosing is based on how low a dose takes your cat's numbers. The lowest point in the cycle is the nadir which, for many cats is about 6 hours after you give a shot. However, nadirs can and do change -- it's not a fixed point. The pre-shot test is important since it tells you if it's safe to give insulin. You want to be testing a minimum of 4 times per day. You always want to get a pre-shot test. In addition, you want to get at least one test during both the AM and PM cycles. Many of us test considerably more than that. I was a testaholic. I liked having data.

If your vet has been suggesting you adjust the dose based on pre-shot numbers, that's problematic. It's an approach that's more appropriate to shorter acting insulin and less appropriate for Lantus. Back-to-back changes in the dose typically yield wonky numbers. Ale provided you with a link to the Lantus board. There is a sticky note that discusses dosing strategies. That note is a helpful read.

As for food, you have tons of choices. This is a link to a wonderful website on feline nutrition. The website is a resource for understanding more about what a cat's needs are given that they are obligate carnivores and have a low thirst drive. The site is also authored by a vet, Lisa Pierson, DVM. She also provides a chart that lists most of the canned foods available in the US along with information on their carbohydrates. We consider low carb as below 10% although most members feed their cat in the 5% range. There are only a very few dry foods that are low in carbs (e.g., Young Again Zero Carb -- it's not zero carbs but it's low, Dr. Elsey's Clean Protein). Another option is to feed your cat a raw diet.

Please let us know how we can help.
 
Okay, I'm going to start integrating those 2 additional tests into my daily routine starting today. Luckily, I do have the time to do this right now. I don't know how I'll be able to do this in the future when my schedule changes, but I suppose that's a problem for another day.

I'll get on the additional reading on the Lantus board, but it's noted that I really need to keep the dose consistent before adjusting it for a minimum of 5+ days in the meantime. I've been trying to stick with a dose between 1 and 1.5 lately over the last week- But when I see his numbers in the lower 100's preshot, I remember that during his recent hypo incidents I got meter readings of >90 and it makes me do flakey stuff like reduce his dose by .5
Some additional confusion on my part occurs because historically, he's always been on much higher doses (His starting dose in 2020 was 3U and he's been on as high as 9U under vet direction.) But I see that I really need to get that out of my mind, let his numbers do the talking in the present, and stop making adjustments based on preshot numbers.

I do think Sammi tends to run lower on the evening dose- Evidenced by all of his hypo events having occurred sometime around 3 or 4 AM. That additional PM test around +2 is probably pretty critical to keeping him safe.

Thank you for the links the food stats and nutrition. Sammi is a picky eater so I think it's pretty important that whatever he will eat be conducive to his health and treatment.

Although information overwhelm is probably just part of the process of getting on top of this thing, it's incredibly helpful to have some more knowledgeable people point out what I need to focus on while I learn. Thankyou,thankyou,thankyou.
I'd like for Sammi's health and wellbeing to suffer as little as possible while I play catch-up. Anything you might think of to offer in this pursuit is welcome.

Unless something changes, I'll keep my focus on the items above and keep testing/updating the spreadsheet until I have enough data to get some more input.
 
Hello and welcome! Much more experienced members than me will be chiming in. I just wanted to give a little encouragement because I know it can be hard. Good for you for deciding to take more control over your kitty's health! Don't be too hard on yourself about the past, you're here now and that's what matters.

I noticed you said your kitty is missing most of their teeth. So is my Snickers! For treats, I take freeze dried treats like Pure Bites or Whole Life, which are low carb, and grind them up in a cheap coffee grinder dedicated to the task. I grind my coffee in a different grinder. The treats get all powdery, and then I'll mix about a teaspoon of powder with some water, and that is her treat. Healthy, low carb, and safe for a toothless cat :) I grind up the whole bag at once so it's ready to go.

I also use Applaws Puree as a treat sometimes too. They come in teensy little packages that make the perfect size treat. Hope that helps a bit.
 
There is also a post that discusses how to do Tight Regulation if you work full time. The two dosing methods that are used for Lantus are Tight Regulation (TR) and Start Low Go Slow (SLGS). Both require a minimum of 4 tests per day but a lot of us who use TR are (or have been) testaholics. Managing TR if you're not at home can be a challenge but then again, most of the members here are not working from home all the time (and many of us were dealing with a diabetic cat before working from home was a "thing". I worked full time and then some throughout Gabby's diabetes.)

How long you hold a dose varies with the dosing method you opt for. TR was developed based on research. Doses are typically held for 3 days/6 cycles. (There are exceptions.) With SLGS, doses are held for a week. To be honest, TR is a more aggressive approach to dosing. It also has an admirable track record for getting cats regulated or into remission. SLGS was developed here. It's used with most of the other types of insulin and it has a solid track record as well. A lot depends on the caregiver's needs and what makes the most sense for you. I personally like TR because the guidelines were more straightforward and it was the approach that was most strongly supported for Lantus users when I joined FDMB.

Many cats experience lower numbers at night. They are nocturnal by nature. We generally recommend getting a test 2 or 3 hours after a shot and a test before you head off to sleep (aka a before bed test). It's a way to ensure that your cat is in safe numbers.

We also encourage members, especially new members, to post and ask for help if you get a lower than expected pre-shot number. Usually there is someone around either on this board (Health) or on the Lantus board 24/7 -- or pretty close. This is an international group and as a result, we have coverage.
 
Sammi currently has his doses at 9am and 9pm. It's sounding like I might need to try and get both of those times earlier so I have more room to test him.

If I want to alter his shot schedule, what is the protocol for achieving this? The veterinarian told me once upon a time that it wasn't a huge deal if I was an hour or two late for a shot once in a grand while, but I've never been more than a half hour late before.

A few years ago I used one of his hypo episodes as an excuse to change his shot schedule because I was advised by the vet to skip a shot at that time. Otherwise, I really have no idea how this is done.
 
We recommend you do it in 15 minutes increments. An hour earlier can work as an increase and an hour later as a decrease. 15 minutes increments are safer.

as far as food, if you want to stay with FF, you can try the classic line of pates. Those should all be low carb as opposed to the grilled. Anything with gravy is generally going to me medium to high carb but save those for your hypo kit.
 
There is also a post that discusses how to do Tight Regulation if you work full time. The two dosing methods that are used for Lantus are Tight Regulation (TR) and Start Low Go Slow (SLGS). Both require a minimum of 4 tests per day but a lot of us who use TR are (or have been) testaholics. Managing TR if you're not at home can be a challenge but then again, most of the members here are not working from home all the time (and many of us were dealing with a diabetic cat before working from home was a "thing". I worked full time and then some throughout Gabby's diabetes.)

How long you hold a dose varies with the dosing method you opt for. TR was developed based on research. Doses are typically held for 3 days/6 cycles. (There are exceptions.) With SLGS, doses are held for a week. To be honest, TR is a more aggressive approach to dosing. It also has an admirable track record for getting cats regulated or into remission. SLGS was developed here. It's used with most of the other types of insulin and it has a solid track record as well. A lot depends on the caregiver's needs and what makes the most sense for you. I personally like TR because the guidelines were more straightforward and it was the approach that was most strongly supported for Lantus users when I joined FDMB.

Many cats experience lower numbers at night. They are nocturnal by nature. We generally recommend getting a test 2 or 3 hours after a shot and a test before you head off to sleep (aka a before bed test). It's a way to ensure that your cat is in safe numbers.

We also encourage members, especially new members, to post and ask for help if you get a lower than expected pre-shot number. Usually there is someone around either on this board (Health) or on the Lantus board 24/7 -- or pretty close. This is an international group and as a result, we have coverage.
She’s feeding some dry right now so I don’t think she can do TR until she transitions safely out of if
 
Correct on the dry food. He really digs some kibble despite having no teeth, lol.

The wet food is functioning as supplemental so that I can make sure he's definitely eating something near shot times. He won't always take kibble when it's time to dose, but he is pretty into the new system where he gets a little wet food after shots that I started over a week ago.

He randomly eats a little kibble when he feels like it several times a day, and never eats what I'd consider a "meal" in a sitting. He's kind of a "snacker?"

I think it can be a problem sometimes if he decides to snack a few less times in a day.. I'm trying to use the wet food to make sure that he doesn't go too low just because he slept through a snack session, or just didn't get hungry in a time frame that lines up with his insulin doses on a given day. Some "padding," if you will.
 
As you get up to speed with testing, the goal will be to continue to give wet food and the two largest meals at shot times, but you’ll want to switch from FF grilled to classic which is their pate line. Maybe get a few cans now to see if he’ll eat it as a test. Then you’re options are to get a low carb dry food if he won’t eat anything else and those are Dr Elseys and Young Again Zero Carb or see if he’ll do well in wet food alone. Most of us feed the 2 largest meals around shot times and 3-4 smaller meals or snacks throughout the day. Smaller meals can just be smaller amounts of the same wet food or low carb treats like anything freeze dried or even regular chicken. Inaba and Aplow make tuna and chicken fillets that are low carb
 
I've ordered a small bag of Young Again's zero carb food to demo with Sammi. Hope he likes it.. expensive, but isn't more expensive than what I've been paying for the Purina DM. Gotta work my way through a few more cans of FF grilled (panic bought rather a lot of these and a few other varieties when I wasn't sure what he'd accept) then will stock the remainder in hypo kit and move to the classic pate (still as supplemental rather than his main source of nutrition.. assuming he'll eat it.) Cannot wait to get his diet more or less settled!

I'm really surprised by how high the carbs are on the DM formula.. My fault for blindly trusting that an expensive vet recommended food for diabetic cats that requires a prescription would be formulated appropriately.

Sammi seems to be mostly okay with all the additional testing I'm doing lately. Neither one of us have ever enjoyed doing this much, but I think we're adapting pretty well. I'm feeling a little like his condition is running both our lives right now, but I'm trusting those feelings will abate once things get a little more sorted out.
 
You can hold on to the grilled variety of the foods for your hypo kit. The grilled food is typically higher in carbs.

Did you give Sammi a shot this morning? If so, could you add the dose information in the "U" column for your AMPS?

Given that Sammi's numbers dropped below 90 last evening, you need to reduce his dose by 0.25u. Your new dose would be 0.75u. You may want to take a look at the Start Low Go Slow information on the dosing methods sticky.
 
Yes, Sammi got a 1U dose this morning.

Oh, geez. My brain hadn't even caught up to >90 should probably be addressed with a reduction. Thanks, that's why I'm here lol
Will reduce to .75U at PM shot today.
 
Hi, so sorry for you and your kitty baby's pain, frustration, fear and anger that comes from this disease and Vets who can make it worse! Try Gerber baby pureed chicken or turkey, about $1 for 2oz. jar (Amazon or any grocery store). Both are just meat & water. You can get away with mixing stuff they don't like into it too. Perhaps a change in Vet is in order?

Tomorrow, I begin bleeding & testing. Thanks for the meter info. Of course the Vet sold me the $100 Alphatrak 3...
All the best & good luck!
 
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