RUMPELTEAZER 10-9-13 AMPS=182

[misty1477]

Tested before work
250 @ 1:25AM

AMPS = 182 @ 8:30AM

Little Less Than 0.8 unit @ 9:15AM

Little More Than 1 tsp Greek yogurt with breakfast.....still "stinky" poopies :roll:

 

[Sue and Oliver (GA)]

Have you tried FortiFlora? It is a probiotic that might help - available on the internet.

 

[misty1477]

Have you tried FortiFlora? It is a probiotic that might help - available on the internet.

I have heard of it...but I might have to deal with the 'stinkies' until the yogurt is all gone. Don't mind the poop...but the smell makes me gag LOL.
Budget right now has to include some things that "I" myself really need (but have been putting off) and I have to try to put some aside for snow tires. It never ends. :roll:

 

[BJM]

And the answer to the question about diluting ProZinc may be

from Endocrine Vet
"Insulin can also be diluted with sterile water or saline solution, but these insulin solutions are not as stable."
- translation, don't mix up a huge batch and expect it to be consistent. Only mix what you might need for 1 dose, or 1 day. And be careful!
If you have a sterile mixing vial, sterile saline vial, and your insulin vial, theoretically, you could measure equal amounts of insuline and sterile salin, put them in the mixing vial, roll thoroughly, then pull out what you needed for 1 day.
I recall reading on a Children with Diabetes page how a parent might draw up X amount of insulin, plus X amount of diluent, roll it around in the syringe, then discharge any excess before shooting.

Also
"ProZinc™ insulin is a sterile aqueous protamine zinc suspension of recombinant human insulin.
Each mL contains:
recombinant human insulin...........................40 International Units (IU)
protamine sulfate....................................0.466 mg
zinc oxide...........................................0.088 mg
glycerin............................................16.00 mg
dibasic sodium phosphate, heptahydrate.............. 3.78 mg
phenol (added as preservative)...................... 2.50 mg
hydrochloric acid................................... 1.63 mg
water for injection (maximum)....................... 1005 mg
pH is adjusted with hydrochloric acid and/or sodium hydroxide."

Note that ProZinc is mostly water.

Ah luvs der interwebs!

 

[misty1477]

And the answer to the question about diluting ProZinc may be

from Endocrine Vet
"Insulin can also be diluted with sterile water or saline solution, but these insulin solutions are not as stable."
- translation, don't mix up a huge batch and expect it to be consistent. Only mix what you might need for 1 dose, or 1 day. And be careful!
If you have a sterile mixing vial, sterile saline vial, and your insulin vial, theoretically, you could measure equal amounts of insuline and sterile salin, put them in the mixing vial, roll thoroughly, then pull out what you needed for 1 day.
I recall reading on a Children with Diabetes page how a parent might draw up X amount of insulin, plus X amount of diluent, roll it around in the syringe, then discharge any excess before shooting.

Also
"ProZinc™ insulin is a sterile aqueous protamine zinc suspension of recombinant human insulin.
Each mL contains:
recombinant human insulin...........................40 International Units (IU)
protamine sulfate....................................0.466 mg
zinc oxide...........................................0.088 mg
glycerin............................................16.00 mg
dibasic sodium phosphate, heptahydrate.............. 3.78 mg
phenol (added as preservative)...................... 2.50 mg
hydrochloric acid................................... 1.63 mg
water for injection (maximum)....................... 1005 mg
pH is adjusted with hydrochloric acid and/or sodium hydroxide."

Note that ProZinc is mostly water.

Ah luvs der interwebs!

So I would need to buy a "mixing vial" + saline solution to do this. I will ask my daughter (pharmacy tech at CVS) about the mixing vials....I don't know what they even look like.
I would use a separate syringe to measure the daily amount and then use new syringes to shoot .... yes?
OR....just use the 'childrens' way you describe.

BTW....very very very soon, I will be going back to the bottle that was sent to me from Omaha....the one that arrived warm because the ice-pak had melted. Hope that bottle is okay to use. It is almost full.

 

[BJM]

Just checked Amazon
sterile mixing vials

sterile water for injection

 

[misty1477]

Just checked Amazon
strile mixing vials

sterile water for injection

WOW....this could become an expensive adventure. Would have to use ONE bottle every day since they would not be sterile anymore....correct? RumpelT is on such low doses now, mixing enough for each day would seem like a waste of a vial.

Here is a question: How would her dose amounts change is diluted 1/2 saline to 1/2 ProZinc? Would they be the same dose amount? Sorry BJ, but I am confused.

 

[misty1477]

Tested before work
250 @ 1:25AM

AMPS = 182 @ 8:30AM

Little Less Than 0.8 unit @ 9:15AM

Little More Than 1 tsp Greek yogurt with breakfast.....still "stinky" poopies :roll:

197 @ 2:15Pm (+5)

 

[Sue and Oliver (GA)]

I have been posting on the PZI forum for over 6 years and never had anyone dilute ProZinc. I would not advise anyone to do it and would not do it with my cat (think of the trouble skilled pharmacists have with compounded medicines...)

I don't see that you need to give any less than you are giving although you could try .1 on the U 100 syringes. Is the idea that you could shoot lower numbers with diluted insulin? I'd much rather see you stick with your scale and if you really want to shoot at numbers under 100, then shoot a drop or .1. Don't waste your precious financial resources on more equipment to do a unproven, untried method.

 

[misty1477]

Tested before work
250 @ 1:25AM

AMPS = 182 @ 8:30AM

Little Less Than 0.8 unit @ 9:15AM

Little More Than 1 tsp Greek yogurt with breakfast.....still "stinky" poopies :roll:

197 @ 2:15Pm (+5)

PMPS = 292 @ 7:40PM

Little Less Than 0.8 unit @ 8:30PM

Decreasing PM Dose A Little To See If AMPS Isn't So Low confused_cat

 

[misty1477]

I have been posting on the PZI forum for over 6 years and never had anyone dilute ProZinc. I would not advise anyone to do it and would not do it with my cat (think of the trouble skilled pharmacists have with compounded medicines...)

I don't see that you need to give any less than you are giving although you could try .1 on the U 100 syringes. Is the idea that you could shoot lower numbers with diluted insulin? I'd much rather see you stick with your scale and if you really want to shoot at numbers under 100, then shoot a drop or .1. Don't waste your precious financial resources on more equipment to do a unproven, untried method.

I don't think diluting would be an option for me anyway. Aside from the added expense, life/schedule is crazy enough and may become even worse. I am looking for a part-time job that will be in addition to my nighttime one. If I find one, I have no clue how I am going to deal with RumpelT's schedule and keep my civvies fed correctly on a timely basis. Oh yeah....I would have to get sleep in the schedule somehow too. :YMSIGH: :YMSIGH: :roll: :roll:

 

[BJM]

If you mixed equal amounts of insulin and sterile saline, you halved the concentration of insulin. For a U-40 insulin, it would become U-20.

Just because no one has posted it here, does not mean it hasn't been done anywhere. Its unfamiliar, certainly.

Probably easier to learn the drop method.
For practice, fill a used U-100 syringe with colored water up to the 0.5 mark.
Carefully squeeze out drops, 1 at a time.
Make each drop the same size.
Count how many you can make.
Repeat until you can get the same number consistently.

Now, you can experiment with reducing the insulin dose by drops. Discharge the excess drops into the sink so you don't put syringe lubricant back in the vial.

 

[Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)]

I would never advise anyone to dilute insulin, period.

I looked at the information linked above.
1- the article is written on a webpage that states

"This blog is written specifically to serve veterinarians and veterinary technicians."

I am neither.

Also, the specific quote about diluting the insulin addresses shooting a diabetic sensitive dog.
And specifies the insulin type as "N"

Lowering the insulin dose— You certainly could dilute the NPH insulin and lower the insulin dose to 0.5 U twice a day. Both Eli Lilly and Novo Nordisk make diluents for their brand of NPH insulin, but these diluents can be difficult to obtain (5). Insulin can also be diluted with sterile water or saline solution, but these insulin solutions are not as stable.

It doesn't mention diluting PZI (compounded) or Prozinc.

For those specific dogs, it suggests switching to U100 syringes with .5u marks as a better choice. So you can see the dose better. You can assume from this that the doses he's talking about are less than 1u increments. But not that they are micro doses like .1u.

He suggests two further options -
1 - switch to a more gentle insulin like Lantus or Prozinc. So he isn't talking about diluting either one of them.
2 - adjust feeding time. Feed 30 minutes before the shot to give the food a head-start on the insulin so the BG is higher when the insulin kicks in. Again, he's talking about short acting harsh insulins such as "N".

Here is his summary -

My Bottom Line

You certainly could lower the NPH insulin dose, but I don't think that's the best solution for this dog. I would recommend switching to a longer-acting insulin preparation, such as ProZinc or Lantus. Although not generally considered as first-choice insulin preparations, both of these long-acting insulin preparations have been reported to be effective in dogs (9,10). Because they are slowly absorbed, both of these insulins have a less potent hypoglycemic effect as compared with NPH insulin.

However, we can't forget about the "premixing" of the insulin dose that the owner does on the weekends, can we! When we throw that into the equation, my choice becomes more obvious. Let's change to Lantus, which is a solution so the insulin won't precipitate out of suspension like the premixed NPH insulin would likely do.

Dr. Peterson is a great vet and knows his "stuff". He's also a huge advocate of Prozinc for cats. This article is about switching to "good insulin" for a dog who is hyper-sensitve to "dog insulin", and putting it on a "cat insulin" like Lantus or Prozinc. Or, diluting the N to make it weaker.

This should be a "Think Tank" topic. Not something that we advise or even suggest that people try at home. "Do No Harm" should be our top priority. Not experimentation.

Just because no one has posted it here, does not mean it hasn't been done anywhere. Its unfamiliar, certainly.

It may have been done elsewhere. It'd be a good idea to find somebody who has done it, or is currently doing it, to post here about their experience. I know I sure wouldn't want to be the first one to try it. And I sure as hell won't be the first person to advise someone else to try in on their cat.

Misty, I hope you aren't seriously considering doing this?

 

[misty1477]

ohmygod_smile ohmygod_smile

Looks like a little 'war' has started over the diluting "suggestion". I hope the members that responded do not become angry at each other. :smile:

As I posted earlier, the diluting option would not work for me anyway due to added expense AND my goofy work schedule.

As Carl indicated....this might be a good think-tank posting. :smile:

P E A C E please.

 

[Sue and Oliver (GA)]

No problems, Misty. The way this board works is on peer review. Someone posts an idea on dosing or whatever and others respond, with a yea or nay. None of us are vets and we are all giving our opinions. Others are supposed to respond with their opinions, as the final choice is the bean who loves the cat.

It would be a great post for the Think Tank.