? Royal Canin Veterinary Diet Feline Diabetic DS 46

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It is really not that good. For a dry it is not that bad. However, a canned. low-carb is best. Typically pate food vice ones with gravy are low in carb. Some ones in jelly are also low-carb.
 
Larry and Kitties said:
It is really not that good. For a dry it is not that bad. However, a canned. low-carb is best. Typically pate food vice ones with gravy are low in carb. Some ones in jelly are also low-carb.
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Thanks, to add he does have allergies and i think this is on the approved list for him to eat which is half a good reason for this. They do have a wet version which we can try once he is stable.

His glucose curve today was

insulin 6am + FOOD

8am > 17.2
9 am > 36.4
10am > 38.4
11 am > 34.3
12 > 33.4
1pm > 29.6
2pm > 28.3
3pm > 34.4

we now switching his food as he was on Hills C/D . VET said i feeding him too much and we need change food but his intial glucose level of 17.2 was an improvement from last week when it was lot higher. Including fact im over feeding and he stressed in vets the intial 17.2 is good . Good in comparsion how bad it was before.

Now need switch food and back in 2 weeks for a glucose curve re-test.
 
im going to call vet tomorrow and have the awkard conversation that i want to ignore her advice. Unless anyone can advise me better? They ordered in the dry food as linked earlier today for tomrorow so will get to cancel and ill get some wet food. Such a crazy thing and pool of information online, but i do trust my vet which is why its so hard to decline her advise ??
 
Pop over to http://www.catinfo.org/to read the basics of feline nutrition. There are many commercial low carb wet or raw foods, even with unique and different proteins that can be tried to help with allergies. Cats on wet food also tend to lose their "fluffiness" they acquire with higher carb dry food. If he was on C/D for urinary issues, the website I mentioned also has a page on feeding for urinary issues, essential low carb/low phosphorus wet food with lots of water added.
 
The Friskies Special Diet pates are an economical, over the counter food for cats with a tendency to develop crystals.
 
I am in UK and don't think can get frisks. So no dry seems the way forward will have look if can find a wet suitable and he not allergic to
 
ok thanks just to state the obvious i should ignore the vet advice and look at the list provided here?

just want to be clear as i need to phone and it be awkward conversion saying sorry ignoring your advice im doing this .... appreciate all help

P.s he was only on C/D due to allergies.
 
Most of us here have ignored vet advice on food, yes. You can always tell them that it's cost prohibitive to feed the prescription food on top of the insulin and testing costs if you don't want to straight up refuse it. If it had been the wet food, you could have gone for buying just 2 or 3 cans if they pushed it and then said he wouldn't eat them, but I don't know how the money back works on a bag of dry food if you return most of it - maybe someone else here knows about that?

Before you go and buy a lot of different types of wet food - do you know exactly what it is he's allergic to or has that not been pinned down at all? You might find you need to avoid certain flavors of wet food to keep his allergies in check.
 
manxcat419 said:
Most of us here have ignored vet advice on food, yes. You can always tell them that it's cost prohibitive to feed the prescription food on top of the insulin and testing costs if you don't want to straight up refuse it. If it had been the wet food, you could have gone for buying just 2 or 3 cans if they pushed it and then said he wouldn't eat them, but I don't know how the money back works on a bag of dry food if you return most of it - maybe someone else here knows about that?

Before you go and buy a lot of different types of wet food - do you know exactly what it is he's allergic to or has that not been pinned down at all? You might find you need to avoid certain flavors of wet food to keep his allergies in check.
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Money is not a problem i have already spent £10,000 on the cat over 3 years. Long as he gets well thats all that matters.

I am by far full of money but his health is No1 so i wouldnt let money overule that.

Yes i do have a list, i will have to dig out the sheet and upload it for you. He is allergies mainly to grass, weeds, caindita, (yeaast) turkey, lamb duck. Chicken is good for him for him ...

And since ignoring VET advice your cats are now at a stable / good level? this is all new to me still and i do feel strange ignoring her advice as so far been good with me. Let me dig up the info and post shortly. thanks
 
Oh, I understand that completely - that's pretty much how most of us think - but it might be a way of getting around your vet's insistence on the prescription food.

As long as you have a list so you can work around the ingredients he can't have that should work fine - you can probably do a lot of checking out the ingredients in the different foods online before you go to buy anything so you know which ones he can have without having to spend hours standing in the supermarket reading the different labels.

Oh, definitely. The high protein, low carb diet just works. That alone can take his reading down by about 5 points...or even more (on the UK BG scale). I do appreciate that it feels strange to go against vet advice, but that's what a lot of us have had to do in the end. My Rosa gets only high protein low carb wet food (the vet wanted her on prescription food), and I adjusted her dose based on the protocols and advice on this site...and she's been off insulin and diet controlled for over a month now. No-one can promise that that will happen for your cat, but the regular low carb wet food definitely works at least as well as any of the prescription diets (and better than any dry food, prescription or otherwise) to help keep BG levels down.
 
manxcat419 said:
Oh, I understand that completely - that's pretty much how most of us think - but it might be a way of getting around your vet's insistence on the prescription food.

As long as you have a list so you can work around the ingredients he can't have that should work fine - you can probably do a lot of checking out the ingredients in the different foods online before you go to buy anything so you know which ones he can have without having to spend hours standing in the supermarket reading the different labels.

Oh, definitely. The high protein, low carb diet just works. That alone can take his reading down by about 5 points...or even more (on the UK BG scale). I do appreciate that it feels strange to go against vet advice, but that's what a lot of us have had to do in the end. My Rosa gets only high protein low carb wet food (the vet wanted her on prescription food), and I adjusted her dose based on the protocols and advice on this site...and she's been off insulin and diet controlled for over a month now. No-one can promise that that will happen for your cat, but the regular low carb wet food definitely works at least as well as any of the prescription diets (and better than any dry food, prescription or otherwise) to help keep BG levels down.
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Ok thank you. Im just wondering if i should trial the dry food vet recommends and if not seeing the results in a month or so then switch to wet as per suggested. Head is really confused as i trust my vet as been so good but at same time i understand everything being said on here and other sites also. Makes it hard to decide.

What is the actual CARB content of the dry food i linked above? Not sure how to work that out..

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/dry_cat_food/royal_canin_feline_vet_diet/307276

Thanks
 
Looks like about 28% carbs (by calorie value). Personally, I wouldn't use it even for a month - we all try to stay with food that's under 10% carbs so it's way into the high carb range...the high carb food I was using to bring Rosa's numbers up when they were low came in at less than that.

A lot of us have had similar problems with our vets - vets we've always trusted for everything else. But it seems as though their experience and knowledge of feline diabetes is often less than the experience of everyone on this site.
 
Thanks for that. just spoke to vet and they said that the dry food linked is best as it has a different type of carbs to normal and is slow releasing which will help him be stable. They actually want a higher carb to get him settled at a lower level as it releases the carbs gradually rather than in 1 spike. Was mentioned that rather than a chocolate bar it would act more like a banana slower releasing.... She gave me a load of technical spill which has now gone over my head but they are adamant that dry food is best for now.

think she worked it out at 24% carbs .... head turner.
 
I hate to have to say it, but that information comes straight off the marketing-style packaging for the food...which has been hard-sold to your vet, probably for many years - that's what Hills and Royal Canin do with their foods. Low carb food doesn't release any carbs as a spike. While it's true that for a human a banana is better than a chocolate bar, cats as obligate carnivores don't actually need any carb intake at all (apart from the tiny, tiny amount that their natural prey might have eaten). He might stabilize, but it'll be at a higher level and/or on a higher insulin dose than he would otherwise need. And if you then switch to a low carb food, you'll be inviting a diabetic hypo - which pretty much leaves you stuck with prescription high carb food (which is what the manufacturer wants) and a cat with very little to no chance of being diet controlled.

Before you make a final decision on it, please ask your vet how many diabetic cats they have treated - currently and previously. And how many of them got good regulation. And how many of them achieved remission. Those numbers will tell you a lot.
 
Thanks very much. will ask some more questions.

Obviously i want him to be diet controlled and to get him off insulin which will free up my life also in terms of set times for injections. Going round on a roundabout here. appreciate all your help
 
Look at my spreadsheet and look at the dates 2nd and 3rd of May and compare. I started giving Frankie low carb food only instead of Royal Canin dry food on the evening of the 2nd. He doesn't do transitioning, he just picks out the new food from the old, so no point. Fair enough, he has bounced a lot since then, but his insulin is down and his numbers are improving.
 
Sue484 said:
Look at my spreadsheet and look at the dates 2nd and 3rd of May and compare. I started giving Frankie low carb food only instead of Royal Canin dry food on the evening of the 2nd. He doesn't do transitioning, he just picks out the new food from the old, so no point. Fair enough, he has bounced a lot since then, but his insulin is down and his numbers are improving.
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I am still rather new to all this so do not fully understand the curve / levels. Was you using the same food as i linked above and when come off that the levels got better??
 
Frankie was eating Royal Canin dry food as linked above and higher carb wet food up until the evening of 2nd May when he switched to low carb wet food only. You can see for yourself how much better his levels were on the 3rd, he had never seen green or blue numbers in over a year of disgnosis, and although he is not yet stable or regulated with the food changes he is improving all the time.
 
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Waving 'Hi' to you from Surrey!

It can be uncomfortable when our vets suggest one thing and 'those crazy folks on the internet' suggest something else. I think most of us have here have had some experience of that. And there are some of us here who freely admit we have learned to 'nod and smile' and then walk away and do something other than the vet has suggested. I'm one of them. I don't like doing it. But my experience with my own cat (and with seeing what has happened with zillions of other folks' cats here) has taught me that it is the right thing to do in this instance.
Don't get me wrong, I really like my vet. And he has provided great healthcare for my animals for quite a few years. But when it comes to feline diabetes....well....that's where our opinions differ just a wee bit....

Many vets do seem to have a mindset that so called 'prescription foods' are the way to go. But please see the following info written by vet Dr Lisa Pierson. She is an expert on feline nutrition and recommends that diabetic cats eat wet food that has less than 10% of calories from carbohydrates.
http://www.catinfo.org/?link=felinediabetes

Is your cat actually on insulin yet? If so, then that changes things a little bit in that we'd only suggest switching to low carb wet if/when you have learned to test his blood glucose at home (way easier than it sounds!). That's because lowering the carb content of the food can reduce the blood glucose quite a bit; and a dose that may have been OK before could be too much after the diet change.

Ultimately, what you feed is your choice, of course. You have to feel comfortable (or as comfortable as you can be in the circumstances) with the choices you make. And any decision you make now won't be 'set in stone'. You can always change your mind later....

Eliz
 
Elizabeth and Bertie said:
Waving 'Hi' to you from Surrey!

It can be uncomfortable when our vets suggest one thing and 'those crazy folks on the internet' suggest something else. I think most of us have here have had some experience of that. And there are some of us here who freely admit we have learned to 'nod and smile' and then walk away and do something other than the vet has suggested. I'm one of them. I don't like doing it. But my experience with my own cat (and with seeing what has happened with zillions of other folks' cats here) has taught me that it is the right thing to do in this instance.
Don't get me wrong, I really like my vet. And he has provided great healthcare for my animals for quite a few years. But when it comes to feline diabetes....well....that's where our opinions differ just a wee bit....

Many vets do seem to have a mindset that so called 'prescription foods' are the way to go. But please see the following info written by vet Dr Lisa Pierson. She is an expert on feline nutrition and recommends that diabetic cats eat wet food that has less than 10% of calories from carbohydrates.
http://www.catinfo.org/?link=felinediabetes

Is your cat actually on insulin yet? If so, then that changes things a little bit in that we'd only suggest switching to low carb wet if/when you have learned to test his blood glucose at home (way easier than it sounds!). That's because lowering the carb content of the food can reduce the blood glucose quite a bit; and a dose that may have been OK before could be too much after the diet change.

Ultimately, what you feed is your choice, of course. You have to feel comfortable (or as comfortable as you can be in the circumstances) with the choices you make. And any decision you make now won't be 'set in stone'. You can always change your mind later....

Eliz
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Yes cat is on 0.5 insuling Caninsulin twice daily, 6am , 6pm.

His curve yesterday when i took him in was

(**** Currently being fed HIlls C/D Wet and he had 1 pouch & half at 6am. Probably too much but i am new to all this and have been told off as such for overfeeding *** )

6am Shoot
8 am 17.2
9 am 36.7
10 am 38.4
11 am 34.3
12 33.4
1 29.5
2 28.3
3pm 34.4

Now he also has allerigies and i uploaded an attachement hopefully can see it? From this and also your suggestions what is best food i can order online in UK or go to shop and buy? I need to change his food urgently. VET has got the new "prescription" food waiting for me to collect later but i think i may cause a stir and follow you guys and say sorry i want to try it my way first...

0.5 using VETPEN is lowest dose possible. No i do not home curve / test yet....
 

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I'm in the UK.. me and Murphy highly recommend Bozita tetra packs!
And for what it's worth my vet, who is great, doesn't particularly recommend P diets. He said change to wet solely however.
 
Amy Dobson said:
I'm in the UK.. me and Murphy highly recommend Bozita tetra packs!
And for what it's worth my vet, who is great, doesn't particularly recommend P diets. He said change to wet solely however.
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Thanks Canned or the Packs?? I hear canned is better or does it not matter?
 
I'm not entirely sure, sorry. I've always bought the tetra packs and only found out my cat is diabetic ten days ago. Hopefully someone more in the know will chime in :bookworm:
 
puppy8910club said:
Thanks Canned or the Packs?? I hear canned is better or does it not matter?
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The canned has a higher protein content and less water. It is a pate style food.
The tetrapaks have slightly less protein and more water. They are more 'chunks in jelly-ish'.

For more UK foods see the link in my signature. :)
.
 
Thats great thank you. Because his numbers were so high on his old C/D food, the vet had the royal canin as mentioned above. He started his first dry food just now and insulin. The vet is still aamendmentthis is the best and i printed out all the facts about the other bozita.

Correct me for my stupidy, but can i give him the royal canin for a period of 2 -3 weeks, whilst i order the bozita, and then transition him to the wet?? Or is is best to just stop the royal and wait for bozita, but his old Hills C/D wet was giving him very very high results. I will have to just go against my vets advice and when he goes back for testing and hopefully amazing results i will say guess what i am on Bozita ? .

I could just confess and say sorry but i am doing this , but everytime i go there i am giving a whole load of spill that this Royal is best for him and to avoid using the other foods for the time being.
 
I really don't understand how that dry Royal Canin can be labelled "Diabetic". It is SO full of corn. When I discussed it with a veterinarian that is in rescue she had never heard of it (it is new), but when she researched it she found that it is for cats who are diabetic and also prone to urinary crystals and shouldn't really be used on other diabetic cats. Yet, sales people see Diabetic across the front of it and sell it for all diabetics. The rescue ChrisFarley came from tried to give me a leftover bag from another diabetic they had. I told her to throw it away. She hated to waste high cost prescription food, but I said its more of a waste to be feeding it to the cats and then chasing it with extra insulin to offset what it does to them. Someone was trying to unload some unused stuff in a rescue forum I am in and got mad at me because I told her to go feed it to the chickens. We feed chickens corn, not cats. I don't consider that RC "Diabetic" appropriate for any cat with the amount of corn products it has listed in the ingredients, let alone a diabetic
 
If anyone can be a legend plz help me pick best food taking into his allergies into consideration and I'm from UK . Knowledge here is great I will talk again to vet but if anyone can confirm bonzita canned any good or other alternative? Thank you
 
Also what is worst case scenario with cat if change food to 10% less ? His insulin is small at 0.5 can he have a low or hypo as not home testing yet ? Trying to work out if I can do behind vet back and just go back for glucose curve and if good readings then reveal what changes I done and ignored her food ?

#55A moment ago
 
I can't help with UK foods, hopefully some of our UK members can come along and help.
But in regards to what can happen with a food change, yes a cat can go low while getting insulin when you change their food if they are suddenly getting more insulin than they need. Cats get too low even on 0.5U, Sly hit the 40s on that. Your numbers are still pretty high, but I'd recommend getting started on home testing as soon as possible.
 
Changing to a low carb canned food (you'll have to read the labels to make sure the contents are not allergens for your cat) may reduce the glucose 100-200 mg/dL or 5.5 to 11.1 mmol/L.
 
ok i am going to order canned Bozita now, and a terka pack as a backup incase he does not like the canned food..

I will keep an eye on him and fingers crossed goes well. Sounds like a good plan?
 
Food changes tend to work better when done gradually over several days. Change about 20-25% if the food each day. Stay at a level for a day or two if the cat seems off, vomits, has diarrhea, etc.

Ever change we make for our diabetics is always an experiment. You have a reasonable chance at success and sometimes the cat will react in a way that is totally unexpected. You just do the best you can.
 
Advice please :

Cat last few days been very largargic, so much yesterday i took him emergency vet as he would normally at least greet me after work and then lay, but he was curled up not moving under bed, managed to get him out (lifting bed) and he did eat food and have injection but he seems like he is dead weight in terms when sitting not really opening eyes and so so tired.

Vet gave him check over and seems no serious signs of anything in terms of heart, lungs etc. His levels were 17 which was 2-3 hours after his injection, which is where he normally is at that time with his level.

Today my partner said he is the same very tired, only comes down to go toilet, and seems so tired. What would you do? Feed him a little?

I know it will take time for his level to balance, i am waiting on bozita cat food to arrive in post but currently mixing the Prescrption royal canin food with his old wet food C/D .

I dont think he is in "danger" as such but very concerning he is so tired 24/7. I may have noticed a small shivver in his tail when i put his food down before? Maybe in excitement or maybe its a sign of something?
 
Are you testing his blood glucose?
If he is too high, that can make him lethargic.
If he is too low, he may be lethargic before going into seizures.
 
BJM said:
Are you testing his blood glucose?
If he is too high, that can make him lethargic.
If he is too low, he may be lethargic before going into seizures.
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No. and from reading it will be beacuse too high 30's /40.

His lowest ever was 17.

I've been feeding winston ad hoc last day and half sheeba and he seems lot brighter and actually played earlier ... Anyways vet said to just keep twice daily feed with diabetic food as glucose level will rise and counter act the insulin ....... ?? I'm going to feed him 3-4 days ignore that . Also ordered alpha track to do home glucose testing .

Until bozita arrives my plan is :

6am 1 pouch + Insulin
Midday - half pouch
6pm 1 Pouch + insuling
9/10pm - half pouch

Sound reasonable?
 
Sounds reasonable to me.

When you have a moment, could you add a few tidbits to your signature? It will help us give you feedback without having to go look in all your past posts.

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Add any other text, such as
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Always click the Save Changes button at the bottom when you have changed anything.
 
Yup. Nicely done. Thanks. The UK should help people recognize they have to think outside the US box of options!
 
Today although he quickly played when got home went stroke him upstairs and he swipped at me with claws. Tried to stroke again and he went for me :( . Nothing vicious but so out of character, he looks so unwell . Going vets in half hour, i do wonder if i am being cruel keeping him going... so hard whats best for him, along with his ashma and allergies :(
 
puppy8910club said:
Going vets in half hour, i do wonder if i am being cruel keeping him going... so hard whats best for him, along with his ashma and allergies :(
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(((Steve))),
He may just be having an 'off' day. And it's likely he'll feel a lot better once his blood glucose gets under better control.

Do let us know how you get on at the vets.

Reassuring (((hug))) to you.

Eliz
 
Hi, I hope the vet has some positive and constructive advice. It's so gut wrenching and heart breaking seeing our pets out of character. I can wholly empathise with you at the moment.
Update us on how the vet goes, I hope all goes well.
 
I hope the vet visit helps. It's difficult when they're having a bad day and don't seem like themselves but, like Elizabeth, I'm sure he will feel better once his levels are more under control. Please keep us updated when you have a chance. :bighug:
 
His diabetes level was 20 that was 12 hours after and actually a good reading compared as his starting point was 17. However his asmha is now very bad and he heavy breathing and sounds weasy to breath all time. He was having steriods for this but had to stop because diabetes. She took bloods to test for pancreatitis and i am waiting for the result hopefully tonight / tomorrow morning.

Even if all clear on that front i need to start using atopica (not sure if spelling correct) to help ashma . This is a squirt into mouth job and taste bitter. Having tried something simialr it really really stressed him out and me. He foams at mouth and runs wild. I really really cant do that to him or myself . Its a case of how to move forward as its not just diabtes. if it was i would be quite happy. Yet again another trip to vets, shaven, bloods, stress. i really dont think its fair and i think it could be PTS :( im so upset he my baby!
 
I'm sorry the vet visit didn't go better Steve. :bighug:

However, I would like to add that if his asthma is so bad that he needs steroids, then he needs steroids regardless of the diabetes. Yes, taking steroids means he may need more insulin than without them and I would think it's less likely that he'll be able to achieve diabetic remission, but remission is pointless if you have a cat who can't breathe...that can kill him where needing insulin for life can be managed. While we would say that steroids are avoided where possible, when they're needed there's nothing you can do but give them and cope with any changes to his insulin requirement. If his asthma was controlled with the steroids and now it isn't and can't be, then he needs to go back on them.
 
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