Robbie's eating and insulin connection

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RobbiesMom

RobbiesMom

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I honestly am not sure what to say here but I have been thinking for a while that Robbie is just eating too much and at the wrong times. I'm going to try and chart when he eats over the 3 day weekend best I can (although I have to work most of the day Sunday so that will be a bit off) - I am not sure what else I can do if that is the issue - he just is SO demanding. I know that I can pick him up and cuddle him and that puts him off for a bit but sometimes only for 15 minutes (although sometimes for 45 to an hour) - Best I can say now he gets the following most of the time:

6:30/7am shot time - test, feed half a can or a tad more with some of his other meds mixed in and shoot him

8am - gets the rest of the can that he was fed at 7am
sometimes just as I"m walking out the door he screams and I give him 1/4 of a can more (all food is mixed with water)

IF someone comes home for lunch time - around 1pm he will get 1/2 a can if he is out and crying for it - often he is under the bed sleeping

5/5:30 Full can with meds and water for dinner (tested before he's fed)

6:30/7pm - 1/4 to half a can mixed with lots of water after he is tested and as he is given his shot

9:30-10 - he usually starts screaming for food - generally I can put him off for a while and try to put him off till 11/11:30 when he gets half a can with lots of water as his bedtime snack

4am-5am - he wakes me SCREAMING as if he's been murdered - I can sometimes take him into bed and he is OK till about 6am but mostly I just feed him so I can go back to sleep till his 6:30 shot

I got home tonight at 10pm and he had a bit of food in his bowl but screamed and acted like he needed to be fed - I held him instead and pointed out his food and he ate some but than started in again. I just cuddled him some more and now he's on the floor grooming - I just don't know what the deal is.
 
WOw! I thought cooper had a demanding food schedule. So how much is that total of oz of food per day? How much does he weigh? Is he overweight? I just got cooper down to the 15lbs that i wanted him at. I had to reduce his food slowly. WHen he first got dx he was eating almost 14oz/day +anythng else he could catch to eat outside and the dog food and still hungry all the time. When i started him on the canned food and limited him to 12oz/per day and got him regulated then i could come down on the food amount. But he had to loose the fat and gain his muscle back and it's a give and take situation. ECID. Cooper is now only eating 8-9oz/per day and seems statisfied. However, i do supplement him 2x/day with raw food. That really seems to help.

Good luck Ellen. I know maine coon's are eaters, especially with FD. I really understand!!!

lori
 
Ellen, you are doing the right stuff by adding water to the food and feeding small meals. It would sure be especially nice if you could get rid of the 4 am behavior.....

Yes, share his weight/his ideal weight/total amount and calories consumed daily and maybe we can see something that will help.
 
OK, I counted 3 cans, plus whatever you feed him at the 4am hissy fit. These are what size cans?

There's a chance that feeding is messing up his AMPS number, depending on how long it takes him to clean the bowl.

Also, some of this might just be a behavioral "problem". I realize cats don't "think" like we think they do. But this could be Robbie "Hey, I scream, I get cuddled. I scream some more, I get food....how great is THIS????" The problem with that, from your point of view, is that if you don't give in, you don't sleep. About the only way to get away from the crying is to get away from it literally. Either make it stop, or make yourself get away from it. Neither is really a great option.

I'm going to try to find links to a couple of old discussions...
There are some "universal truths" on the board that seem to not be universal. But when something gets said often enough, it becomes "true" (Sort of like the instant reaction to anyone saying they use a meter with the word "TRUE" in its name. "All meters that say TRUE are junk". But that isn't TRUE, and although Rebecca posted about it, and advised everyone to try to keep current on meters as well as everything else, the statement appears a couple times a week in Health in newbie threads).

One is "A diabetic cat is starving. Feed him as much as he wants"
The other is "Never shoot insulin if kitty isn't eating"

The first one pertains more to Robbie, but I think both are well worth reading.
Why "Feed as much as he wants" might not be good advice:
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31942&p=331687&


Why "no food = no insulin" isn't right:
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=9070

Carl
 
Hi Ellen -

Welcome to "my kitty is eating me out of house & home!" You've heard me say for many months, two things. First, Grayson would sell me for a bowl of Kitt-N-Kaboodle, and second, he'd rip my arm off cuz I wasn't getting the FF out of the can fast enough. Grayson's ravenous appetite includes multiple stories about him rummaging through the cupboards and taking lids off Tupperware to get dog or cat kibble. I think mostly that goes with the numbers. The entire time we were on ProZinc, and he swam in the pinks, he was ravenous.

When I found out he had acromegaly, and his body was growing growth hormones, it made sense that he was eating like a teenage boy. We are at 6 weeks past SRT, and it appears that his appetite is starting to reduce. His shot schedule is shifted now, but his clock inside looks at me like I'm trying to pull a fast one on him when I only give him ONE can at 5:30. He KNOWs it almost shot time, although we're still backed up about 2 hours, and he doesn't seem to notice he gets the second can at the actual shot time. HE WANTS IT NOW!!!

Before the Acro dx, I thought the food was what was causing his high, flat numbers. I started logging food intake on his SS. Now I know that there's growth days and no growth days of the growth hormone, as well as [hopefully] the multiplying cells in the pituitary dying off, the food was probably not really an issue. Or maybe it was because of his level of regulation... But if you'll take a look, you'll see that for quite a while, Grayson was eating 7-10 cans of FF per day! Talk about eating you outa house & home: get me a second mortgage! Right now he's down to 2 at shot time, and one or two in between.

I also was inclined to feed him when he was starving, as it was evident he was not putting on any of the weight he lost. Remember, he was almost 22# 6 months before dx, and got down to about 11. He looked anorexic - how could I NOT feed him? Turns out the IBD was an issue as well, but he didn't do well with the food changes. Even gradual ones. The past few weeks, I've seen many changes in him. He's filling out, his appetite is still large, but closer to normal, his eyes are less dilated (tumor sits on optic nerve), and even tonight, he tried to rub on Jack (dog)... who he previously would run across the room to smack! I'm sure it's many factors influencing this, but whatever the combination and the proportions - right dose, breaking through the resistance, thus bringing down his BGs, SRT having an effect - all or none of the above... it's been a very positive change for him.

I would definitely log his food intake, but know (as Carl has said so many times) - there are a handful of variables we can control, and a WHOLE LOT MORE that we can't. You can only do so much to impact their numbers with what we have control over. Insulin, dose, frequency, diet, exercise... the rest is up to them! So don't let it make you crazy!

Lu-Ann
 
Ok let me see if I can add the info that might help with any input you all feel you can give.
Robbie was always a big boy - but early on the dry food got out of control - I was letting him free feed on dry like my other cats had (none of whom had weight issues and one who lived to be 20 and was never sick a day in her life) but it soon became obvious this wouldn't work with Robbie - he ballooned up to almost 25 lbs. At the time our vet said that he felt Robbie's ideal weight would be 15 - FIFTEEN ?? I didn't agree and since our vet didnt have a lot of Maine Coon experience I sent him some links to websites and he agreed maybe 15 was too low. I cut back on the dry and got new bigger cat trees to encourage exercise (indoor cats only). It helped he got down to 22 lbs but it took a while - than things got wacky and it took me way too long to notice. He eventually just looked so thin and awful I couldn't believe it - he was 16lbs and this happened in about 2 years but mostly in the last year - he only had one visit to the vet during this and it was early on and the vet was happy with the weight loss but felt it was a bit fast and we did some tests his fructosimine was a bit high and the vet asked me about any symptoms - but I wasn't noticing any increased water intake at the time nor were there large pee clumps. So we decided to just watch him. NO mention of taking him off dry food or anything which is one thing my Vet has learned from this experience (but not the only thing) . Anyway this is getting too long - but as you've probably guessed this was the onset of the diabetes. We'd been dealing with his asthma and he'd been getting prednisone pills off and on and than he had a really bad episode with the asthma and we were going away - I was worried so he went in and got a prednisone shot, the vet was reluctant but I was so worried he relented and that was it - Pushed him right over the edge- we both regret it to this day. By the time I got him back to the vet after our trip etc. he was at that 15 lbs and the vet agreed he was WAAAY too thin - I look at the few photos I have of him from back than and could kick myself for not seeing how horrible he looked. And it was clear he had diabetes besides the high (900's) fructosimine level he was peeing what looked like dinner plate sized clumps and drinking bowl after bowl of water. As most of you know we eventually got him regulated and than OTJ - we cut out dry food, he'd always gotten FF for breakfast and dinner so we switched to the low cal/carb flavors and eventually he was at 18lbs and looked great. For the 2 years he was OTJ he maintained 18/19 lbs and both the vet and I agree it seems to be a good weight for him. He's a big boy - his paws are the size of hockey pucks! So he is CURRENTLY at 18.6 lbs but eating a lot more to maintain that weight than when he was OTJ or at least it certainly feels like it. While he was OTJ I gave him breakfast, mid day snack if possible, dinner and than a late night get him thru the night snack. This 4am wake up and feed/cuddle me **** didn't start till he became diabetic again.
He is fed Fancy Feast - the small cans - standard size I believe.
Yes, I beleive I am helping "train" him to continue these 4am wake ups - but if I don't relent he screams continuously - and on weekend nights when we don't have work I've tested this theory... he doesn't eventually stop, he eventually climbs up on the bed if hes feeling up to it and stands on my chest and screams.
Ihave not read your links yet carl but am doing that next.
I think he's at a good weight for him... but I would like to see more muscle - between the arthritis and the diabetes he's lost some of his strength and power - he still hauls himself up on the cat walk if he thinks Roxie has "gravy" food up there and this involves lots of upper body strength for him cause he can't jump really well with his hip problems. (God he sounds like a mess...)
Carl I think I under reported his food - I'd say he does more like 4.5 cans a day - my husband thinks sometimes 5 cans but I'm going to test this - it's hard to tell cause at 4am I'm usually feeding him whatever is left from his late night snack and if that isn't enough than sometimes I give him half a can more but I'm totally asleep during this so it's hard to remember- seriously. My new plan is every time we open a can for him we are marking the lid with the day/time and saving it off to the side. Starting this mid-day today and will try and do it thru Monday.
Thanks again gang. In the next month I'm sure I'll be looking at changing insulin or more testing for other issues.
 
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