Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast question.

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Christianna

Member Since 2014
My sugar kitty Noodle has been getting slow increases in .25 unit increments and is showing a few yellows mixed in with all those pinks, though he still has a long way to go. Often after a dose increase he seems to have higher numbers for a couple of days. I know the protocol says it is good to increase doses after 3 days/6 cycles but if I raised him that often wouldn't he be in an almost continual state of New Dose Wonkiness?
Also, is the renal threshold where the kitty spills sugar into his urine? What BG number does Noodle need to be at before the sugar is no longer showing on the urine test strip? Thanks--I'm still pretty green at this :? (not even sure I asked this question correctly.)

Christi
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

180 - 280 mg/dL (10 - 15.6 mmol/L) {may be 257-300 to 400-467 mg/dL for an AlphaTrak}- Any time - The renal threshold (depending on data source and cat's renal function) where glucose spills into the urine.
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

Christianna said:
I know the protocol says it is good to increase doses after 3 days/6 cycles but if I raised him that often wouldn't he be in an almost continual state of New Dose Wonkiness?

You might be interested in reading this follow-up post on bounces and NDW:
Libby and Lucy said:
Phase 2: Increasing the dose

Most cats need to have their dose increased. Do it in 0.25 IU or 0.5 IU steps (0.25 IU if the cat is getting a low dose and/or relatively low BGs, 0.5 IU if the cat is getting a higher dose and/or relatively high BGs). Hold each dose for 5-7 days. However, if the cat is producing continuously high BGs (nadir always >=300 mg/dl), only hold the dose for 2-3 days before increasing it by 0.5 IU. Alternatively, if the cat is continuously producing moderately elevated BGs (nadir always >=200 mg/dl), increase the dose every 2-3 days by 0.25 IU ( if the cat is getting a low dose) or 0.5 IU (if the cat is getting a higher dose). From this point onward test for ketones once per week, or more often if the nadirs are still >=200 mg/dl. (emphasis mine).
People quote this part of the protocol all the time without understanding where these guidelines came from. Did you know that we have already allowed time for bouncing in these timelines?

What this says is:

Nadirs under 200: hold doses for 5-7 days. Why?
  • Day 3 - this would probably be the day to see a lower nadir, if there is going to be one.
  • Day 4-6 could be bouncing. If good numbers don't return, increase the dose. Use your own data to determine how long to wait before deciding the good numbers won't be returning.

Nadirs over 200: who cares if there is bouncing, cat needs more insulin, increase after 2-3 days.
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

This is actually where the two protocols disagree. Here we follow the Start low Go Slow approach. What Kay gave you is the Tight Regulation protocol whereas per Rebecca's sticky on this forum
5 Steps to Regulating Your Diabetic Cat
(the "Start Low - Go Slow" approach)
Developed by the Feline Diabetes Message Board community
Written by Susan & Shadow

Equipment:

One cat with a confirmed diagnosis of diabetes (without complications such as diabetic ketoacidosis)
One bottle of long-acting insulin
.3 cc syringes with 30- or 31-gauge needles (with half-unit markings if you can get them)
Instruments for measuring blood glucose, such as a home glucometer and test strips
Lancets
One bottle of Karo or other glucose syrup
A printed copy of Melissa & Popcorn's Treating Hypoglycemia document
One bottle of Ketostix or Ketodiastix, for monitoring urine for ketones
Low-carbohydrate treats to reward the kitty
Before you start -- How Diet Affects Regulation:

This document is a description of a safe and conservative procedure for determining the proper dose of insulin for your cat. However, what and how you feed your cat are very important to this process. Some important dietary principles are:

Always be consistent in what you feed your cat in terms of protein, fat, carbohydrate, and fiber content of the diet, and when you feed your cat relative to the insulin dose.
Make sure that the type of insulin matches how you feed your cat. A shorter-acting insulin such as Vetsulin/Caninsulin often requires meal-feeding (or at least not feeding your cat after about 6 hours post-dose); longer-acting insulins such as PZI, Lantus, or Levemir may be more suitable for a cat who free-feeds.
Consider the content of the diet. Cats on diets which are low in carbohydrates (around 5-10% of total calories) usually require less insulin than cats on high-carbohydrate diets. Very few dry foods are appropriate for cats. In addition, a substantial minority (around 1/3) of cats who were previously on a high-carbohydrate diet may end up not needing insulin injections if carbohydrates are restricted. There is now research indicating that Lantus (insulin glargine) may improve your cat's chances of being diet-controlled. Caution: a low-carbohydrate diet may not be appropriate for some cats with health conditions such as chronic renal failure or pancreatitis; check with your vet to see if this diet is appropriate.
Five Steps to Regulation:

Step 1. Start at a low dose of PZI, Lantus, or Levemir insulin, as recommended by your vet. (Note: Humulin and Novolin Lente and Ultralente, two insulins with good track records in cats, have been discontinued by the manufacturers.) A conservative starting dose is 1.0-2.0 units, twice per day. If your cat's blood glucose was less than 400 mg/dl (22.1 mmol/L) at diagnosis, or if your cat is on a low-carbohydrate diet, the starting dose should be only 0.5-1.0 units twice per day. Fast-acting insulins such as Humulin Regular, Humulin 70/30, and Humulin N (NPH) are not suitable starting insulins for cats.

Step 2.
Don't increase the dose until your cat has been on it for at least a week. If you have reason to be concerned about hypoglycemia, or if your cat won't eat, do decrease the dose and contact your vet. Do test your cat's urine frequently during the regulation process using Ketostix or Ketodiastix, and contact your vet immediately if the cat tests positive for ketones. Do be consistent in the timing and type of food. Do give the shots at about the same time every day.

Step 3.
After 1-2 weeks at a given dose, you or your vet should perform a serial blood glucose curve (blood glucose tests every 2 hours, starting at shot time and continuing until the next shot). Follow the cat's normal feeding schedule during the curve. The curve should be evaluated by someone experienced at interpreting feline blood glucose curves, in order to check for signs of rebound and other possible problems. If no rebound is present, follow these guidelines for dose adjustment (smaller adjustments may be appropriate for cats on PZI or Lantus):

If the lowest point of the curve is above 150 mg/dl (8.3 mmol/L), increase the dose by 0.5 unit.
If the lowest point of the curve is between 90 and 149 mg/dl (5.0 and 8.2 mmol/L), keep the dose the same.
If the lowest point of the curve is below 90 mg/dl (5.0 mmol/L), decrease the dose by 0.5 unit.
Step 4.
Repeat the cycle of curving and waiting 1-2 weeks. As your cat's blood glucose begins to fall mostly in the desired range [lowest point of the curve approaching 100 mg/dl (5.5 mmol/L) and pre-shot value around or below 300 mg/dl (16.6 mmol/L)], do lengthen the waiting time between dose increases. If you decide to change another factor (e.g., diet or other medications), don't increase the insulin dose until the other change is complete (but do decrease the dose if your cat's glucose numbers consistently fall below 90 mg/dl (5.0 mmol/L) as a result of the change). Don't be tempted to rush the process along by increasing the dose more quickly or in larger increments-- no matter how high your cat's blood glucose is! Rushing towards regulation will cost you time in the long run, because you may shoot past the right dose.

Step 5.
Once you can no longer increase the dose without the cat dropping below 90 mg/dl (5.0 mmol/L) at the lowest point, evaluate the duration of the insulin's action. If your cat's preshot blood glucose values are still consistently above 350 mg/dl (19.3 mmol/L), or if your cat's blood glucose usually returns to preshot values more than an hour before the next shot is due, ask your vet about longer-duration insulins or possible adjustments to your cat's food or feeding schedule.

That's it - 5 steps! These steps are general guidelines that work for the majority of cats. Because every cat is different and exceptional situations may arise, your cat's progress should be closely monitored by someone with experience regulating feline diabetics.

Last update: Jan 2012

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

Hi BJM,
Thanks so much for the explanation and numbers on the renal threshold. I appreciate your responding to my question. Seems like it's taking awhile for me to wrap my head around all these various aspects of FD and I appreciate your patience in answering my questions!

Christi
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

Thanks so much, KPassa and Mel for the differentiations between the two protocols. It is confusing to me as to what would be best for Noodle and I think I have done a little bit of each :? Plus, my vet lies somewhere in the middle, so I'm pretty much not drawing attention to it with him. Lately, because of other commitments and being unable to test constantly, I guess Noodle has been more on the SLGS program. I don't want to be too "chicken" and go TOO slow, as we still need to get his numbers down but also don't want to do a big dose increase when I'm not around to keep a close eye on him. Probably will raise him again Monday unless he drops quite a bit before then. Fortunately he has been ketone-free for about 10 days so that's a big relief. Thanks to you both for the clarification :smile:

Christi
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

hi Christi
i know what you mean. i need it explained to me a few times b4 i really understand what's going on.
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

Christianna said:
Thanks so much, KPassa and Mel for the differentiations between the two protocols. It is confusing to me as to what would be best for Noodle and I think I have done a little bit of each :? Plus, my vet lies somewhere in the middle, so I'm pretty much not drawing attention to it with him. Lately, because of other commitments and being unable to test constantly, I guess Noodle has been more on the SLGS program.

I also use a cross between TR and SLGS because that's what seems to work best with Mikey and with my schedule. You do what you can do when you can do it. ;-) That's the beauty of the Relaxed forum: as long as you're being safe about it, you don't have to be fastidiously married to a Protocol.
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

I also did a mix of the two with Mona. If I could test a lot for a few days I'd follow TR, but otherwise I erred on her running high.

She still went OTJ, so that mix seemed to work fine for her!
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

KPassa and atajev,
Thanks so much! That really takes a load off my mind. I really was uneasy thinking I had to be 100% absolutely on one protocol even though it really created a nearly-impossible situation with my ability to test and monitor on some days. It is really a relief to me to know it's OK to adapt the protocols a bit to work with Noodle and my limitations. I feel much more hopeful now and very relieved. I'm so glad you both responded to this post. Thanks again! :smile:

Christi
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

That is exactly why Relaxed Lantus exist for those of us that can't for whatever reason follow Tight Regulation. I've got two that are OTJ and one old lady that's trying hard to follow her sugar brothers. None of them have I followed a set protocol. Bits and pieces of each and free formed some of it to fit my life style as well.

It's been a mantra here for before I joined ECID (Every Cat Is Different) but also ECGID (Every Care Giver Is Different) Something to remember is you already did more than 75% of cat owner's when you filled your first script for insulin. Out of that remaining 25% you're in the top 5% because you are testing at home. Hey ANY testings at all is better than shooting completely blind. Just that ability to catch a hypo setting in so you can intervene. We do the best we can, we are afterall human.If we were perfect, we'd have been born Cats. ohmygod_smile :-D

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

awwhhh Mel
how true if we were perfect, we would b cats. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
i also do a little of both protocols. just want to do whatever works for him.
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

You should go back and read what I did with Spitzer. Didn't follow anyone's protocol towards the end. I was trying everything I could think of and when I posted what I was doing, several folks were horrified, even though it was an extension of concepts.
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

hi bjm
where is the write up of what u did with Spitzer?
i'd like to read it. thanks alot
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

It isn't one write up. Its the posts I made.

Here's one that is a bit of a summary.
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

It's like the Island of Misfit Toys around here. :lol:
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

thanks bjm.
but Kay, i love the misfit toys. i always want to take them home. lol. i do belong here in relaxed
lol.
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

We aren't mis-fit; we're fit exactly where we should be.
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

tibbs5 said:
but Kay, i love the misfit toys. i always want to take them home. lol. i do belong here in relaxed
lol.
Me too. ;-) After all, that's how I ended up with Mikey. Even his own Mama didn't want him.
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

:RAHCAT YES :RAHCAT

awhhh. well he is so lucky to have you now!!
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

aww K, mikeys kitty mama rejected him? :( well glad u have him.
and.... mel, 75 percent dont get insulin filled????? afraid to ask, do most euthanize? drop off at a shelter (here i bet they do that. a million healthy cats go there) or what? :( :(
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

Both I'm afraid. With my first girl Muse her vet at the time didn't even suggest treating her, and I had to fight for them to even test her for diabetes. That's why he's my ex-vet.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: Renal threshold question, also increasing too fast quest

IloveLarry said:
aww K, mikeys kitty mama rejected him? :( well glad u have him
He was born into a feral cat colony at my friend's work where she manages them and does TNR. When he was about 8 weeks old, his mom moved his two much bigger brothers and left him behind. It was a Friday and my friend waited all day for the Mama cat to come back for him but she ignored him. He was so sickly that my friend was worried he wouldn't make it through the weekend so she took him to me to "foster" over the weekend and I took one look at the wee bairn and claimed him forever. :-D Turns out he was probably diabetic from birth and that's why she abandoned him.
 
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