Remi poorly update 04/13-back on the steroids

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phlika29

phlika29

Member Since 2014
Remi has suddenly been poorly for the last two weeks. He came off lantus just before Xmas and has been doing really well. Then two weeks ago he suddenly started to throw up in the morning, had a little diarrhoea and had a brief day where he seemed to have cystitis.

He then seemed to recover but since then has had the occasional morning throw up and his tummy has bed really gassy. He had tests at the vet and we initially thought that it was SIBO and a panc flair. Then the results indicated that proximal small intestine issues as he has low folate levels (in addition to high pancreatitis, high ALT, high urea and creatinine and slightly high globular protein and slightly high total protein. ) remi was given the antibiotic metrozidonale for the tummy issues.

He has been on kaminox for low potassium since his diabetes diagnosis and so this was in the normal range however after starting the anti biotic his tummy was still full of gas, and making him burp and so the vet and I decided that maybe the kaminox was irritating it and to stop and see what happens. His tummy improved straight away but his energy levels and appetite dropped off after a day or two. A retest today showed that his potassium levels have dropped to 3.3 and so this time we are going to try tumil k as it doesn't have the added vitamins and minerals such as iron which I was worried was adding to his issues. He has also had a stool sample sent off today to test for parasites and bacterial infection as he had more diarrhoea.

So to my question. He has hardly easten tonight after his vet visit. He isn't in pain and seems happy enough. A few days ago I upped his Ondansetron dosage and so I don't think it is nausea that is stopping him eating. His appetite is just diminished. The tumil k won't arrive until Wednesday and I am wondering if I should just give him a little kaminox to kick start his appetite again but want to get some food in him. The best thing I have used before at times like this is the royal canin instant support but it must bef very high carb? Can someone tell me how high carb this is?

http://about.royalcanin.co.uk/catalogue/canine-veterinary-diet/convalescence-support-dogscats23712/

If it is high carb would it matter for a day or two just to kick start his eating and allow me to put a tiny amount of potassium supplement in it? Is it likely to ring him out of remission?

He has triaditis and so I can't change around his food too much but I know he will accept this.
 
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They don't make the nutritional values easy to read on that food, that's for sure! If nothing else, I'd say looking at the starch % of 18.6, that would be the minimum carb level you could expect to actually have as an 'as fed' value out of the food. They seem to be including some things more than once - they're listing fibre and dietary fibre, then starch - all of those are sort of the same thing!!

I'd have said it's better to have him eat something that nothing even if it isn't an ideal food especially if he's not eating enough at the moment. I'm not sure whether a day or two would be enough to bring him out of remission - I guess that depends on the individual cat, but if it did it might be temporary until you were able to get him back on his regular food. Did your vet have any opinion on that? BUT that RC food does have a 24% fat content - is that going to affect his pancreatitis? Sorry, pancreatitis isn't something any of ours have had so I'm not sure how the fat content in food affects it in cats.

The Tumil K works fine for our CKD kitty, Shadow. She's been on it every day for about 3 years now and doesn't seem to have any problems from it at all. If you get the pills, you will want to syringe just a bit of water into him afterwards to make sure the pill goes all the way down. If it's the powder, you should be fine just adding it to his food. There has been a supply issue with Tumil K recently - it may be resolved now, but if you find you can't get hold of it at any point, I checked with our vet and the reasonable alternative is called RenaKare. Our vet said they can't order that for us, but they would be prepared to call in a prescription to one of the online places if we needed them to.

The concern I would have is that metronidazole lists stomach problem, diarrhea and an unpleasant taste in the mouth as side effects - not something you want Remi to be dealing with if he's already nauseous. I'm not sure if there is a reasonable alternative, but it might be worth asking the vet if there's anything different you could try if his symptoms don't seem to be improving.

I'm really not sure what to think about the kaminox. It's possible the iron might not be helping him if he's not feeling great already, but then the low potassium won't be helping him either. Hopefully someone who's dealt with something similar will be able to offer more information on whether to try him with a little of that or not.

Hugs for you and scritches for Remi for having to deal with this - I really hope he's feeling better soon!
 
Sorry to hear Remi is not feeling well.....When you say he throws up in the morning, is it white foamy vomit or clear yellow(bile) I notice the higher creatine (which can make him feel crappy as can low potassium) and was wondering? Were probiotics given to help replace lost good bacteria lost form the Metronidiazole? Was also wondering if Cypro was in place for his appetite? I would call your vet RE: the Tumil K, electrolytes balance is tricky!

You could check his BG if you feed him that food? I'm not familiar with that particular food, but if he was mine, I would be inclined to feed whatever he will eat at this point. My Tiger will usually eat baby food when all else fails, BeechNut Chicken with Broth and Turkey with Broth are favorites. Fingers and paws crossed for some answers in the stool culture!
 
Thanks you two for replying. I gave him some of the sachet and he ate it happily.

April- those were my thoughts re the metrozidonale. His last dose was this morning as the vet said that if it was going to help the situation it would have done by now. I am hoping that will help the diarrhoea. At first it did seem to help in that regard but I think as his appetite diminished it irritated it more.

I also agree about the iron in the kaminox and hence the reason for the switch over. Again the vet thought that maybe a lower dose might be okay as he was fine on it before. I am just thinking that it might help to give it just a tiny amount for the next day or two until the tumil k arrived just to try to being back his appetite but it does make me nervous. I think I will just add a tiny drop tonight to see if it helps.

Ruth- yes in the morning, just bile. It has got better since I switched to giving him his Zantac in the late evening instead of at tea time so I agree with you it could be a kidney thing. The odd thing about it all is the sudden turn of events from being good to having tummy issues. I can't help but think something set it off and in a way I am sort of hoping they find a bacteria in his stool sample.

I bought probiotics but then read on Tayna's website about them being possibly bad for cats with pancreatitis. So haven't given them. I think if the tumil k doesn't. Help with the appetite I will speak to the vet about a stimulant. I think I have some here somewhere from before.

Thanks for replying it is so great to know you aren't alone. I am off to test his blood Glucose and maybe add a drop of kaminox.
 
I just tested his blood glucose and it is 99 about 30 minutes after having some food. So hopefully giving him some more should be okay.

April Re the food- I got him through his last panc flair by giving him this food so am hoping that it will okay for him for now but yes otherwise I would be worried about the fat levels (although interestingly apparently fat isn't meant to be implicated in feline pancreatitis )
 
I think on balance, a really small dose of kaminox so he gets hopefully enough potassium to stop him dropping any further but not enough iron from it to make his tummy problems worse is probably a good ideal until you get the tumil k through. It's such a tricky call because lack of potassium could be making him feel bad too.

Looking good on the glucose :) I'd imagine you might have to test him a couple of times a day while he's on the higher carb food, but I doubt it would bring him out of remission permanently if it's just for a few days - and he needs to eat to have the strength to start feeling better! I've never given baby food to a cat but @Tiger and Ruth's suggestion of trying that might be worthwhile if you think he needs something a little extra.

That is interesting information - I know fat is meant to be bad for pancreatitis in people (my grandfather had it once) and I had no idea that it doesn't usually affect cats the same way. I'd have thought if he was good with it the last time and you know he's likely to eat it, it should be a good option for now to get him feeling better. :)
 
manxcat419 said:
I know fat is meant to be bad for pancreatitis in people (my grandfather had it once) and I had no idea that it doesn't usually affect cats the same way. I'd have thought if he was good with it the last time and you know he's likely to eat it, it should be a good option for now to get him feeling better. :)
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@manxcat419 April, the weird thing is, my Tiger has chronic pancreatitis as well, but the response to higher fat food is definitely an ECID thing-she eats only Wellness Core and it is relatively high fat, but it doesn't seem to bother her one bit.
 
phlika29 said:
Ruth- yes in the morning, just bile. It has got better since I switched to giving him his Zantac in the late evening instead of at tea time so I agree with you it could be a kidney thing. The odd thing about it all is the sudden turn of events from being good to having tummy issues. I can't help but think something set it off and in a way I am sort of hoping they find a bacteria in his stool sample.

I bought probiotics but then read on Tayna's website about them being possibly bad for cats with pancreatitis. So haven't given them. I think if the tumil k doesn't. Help with the appetite I will speak to the vet about a stimulant. I think I have some here somewhere from before.
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Zantac works great too and it has the plus of helping the gut motility! Fingers and paws crossed for something that tells you what is going on with Remi and you are not alone BTW! We have multi-issue cats and it gets really complicated. I noticed you said Remi belches? I just discovered this in Tiger as well, not I am suspicious of something IBD related. D0es Remi like Forta Flora at all? It may not be the best probiotic, but it adds appeal to the food when you sprinkle it on. I have not noticed it bothering Tiger and she has chronic pancreatitis as well. Healing vines for Remi
 
It really is fascinating how different they all are and how they handle food and everything else differently! It's no wonder really that so much of what we do to try and help them finishes up being trial and error - and it feels like a real achievement when you find the things that work specifically for your cat, whether it's what works for anyone else or not. :D I haven't tried the Wellness foods at all - I'd like to at some point at least for a little variety for them but with 6 cats in the house the price of anything like that stacks up really quickly especially when 4 of the 6 have no special dietary requirements (apart from the ones I've imposed on Regan to stop her finishing up like Rosa just in case the diabetes is genetic for them). So unless we hit a real problem with one of them, it's Friskies pates at the moment as they seem to do fine on those and it keeps the costs down just a bit!
 
manxcat419 said:
I haven't tried the Wellness foods at all - I'd like to at some point at least for a little variety for them but with 6 cats in the house the price of anything like that stacks up really quickly especially when 4 of the 6 have no special dietary requirements (apart from the ones I've imposed on Regan to stop her finishing up like Rosa just in case the diabetes is genetic for them). So unless we hit a real problem with one of them, it's Friskies pates at the moment as they seem to do fine on those and it keeps the costs down just a bit!
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@manxcat419 I hear you on the 6 cats,well, I only had 3 cats at one time, but still, it gets pricey. There is an advantage to being an only child :rolleyes: What I want to do is to try Tiger on raw foods, as Dr. Lisa Pierson suggests, but I just know I will go through all that work and she won't eat it! :rolleyes:
 
In theory only 4 of the 6 cats eat the wet food (I keep being assured by our housemate that his 2 hate wet food, but then I keep finding them with their heads in the bowl anyway)!! I think raw food would be the very best, but I agree it's a lot more work and there's no way she could possibly be so obliging as to appreciate the work by actually eating the food! :rolleyes: I am tempted to try adding at least some raw over the next few weeks while I'm off work and will have the time to put into getting it right, but whether or not I'll actually manage to get them to eat it is another story - I did try raw food with them once when I had ferrets (which pretty much have to have some raw in their diet) - the cats always wanted some and would follow me around begging for it, but then played with it instead of eating it. :banghead:
 
Sarah,

Saoirse has had similar issues since becoming diet-controlled. Lisa (Tisha's Person) found that Tisha's pancreatitis flared up when she was trying to take her off insulin. I've already spoken to our vets about possibly reinstating token doses of insulin with Saoirse but the idea hasn't got traction with them. Yet...

Saoirse was really healthy at Christmas. Her body and coat condition have been gradually deteriorating since then (and her abdominal distension is back again). I'm really beginning to consider short courses of microdoses of Lantus with very close monitoring as a possible maintenance treatment for her pancreatitis. What I do know for a fact is that I had a much healthier cat in December. (Sorry I can't write more at this time. I'm shattered.)
 
Sarah,

Re the RC convalescence support, just had a look at the link you posted and noticed that the first ingredient is 'milk proteins'. Is it right that Remi is intolerant to milk? (Though it seems that Remi has tolerated this food in the past, so I may well be mixing you up with someone else, sorry...)
Re the carb content, that seems to come out at 16.6 % calories from carbs.

I actually found this product really helpful when I had two very sick kitties a while back, and sincerely hope that it is suitable for Remi also.

I think you'd be very unlucky indeed if a few meals of this knocked Remi out of remission. But the immediate need is that Remi eats and gets well, whatever the effect on his BG. (And if it does happen that Remi comes out of remission, well, having to give insulin isn't the end of the world...;) )

Sending 'swift recovery' vibes to Remi.

And take very good care of yourself too, Sarah. :bighug:

Eliz
 
Hi everyone. Remi perked up after the royal canin and even ate about 20g of his normal food. I think once you stimulate his tummy he remembers to eat plus perhaps the electrolytes added to the royal canin helped. I didn't try the kaminox yet.

So my plan this morning is to test his blood and then put down his normal food on a nice warm plate and if he doesn't eat it go back to the royal canin. At some point this morning I might try just a smidgen of kaminox but before that I will phone the other branches of my vets and see if they have tumil k in stock.

Re the fat in food remi does usually react but that could well be his liver problems rather than the pancreatitis. I think that is why it is such a hard disease to get to grips with because potentially you might have a few co existing conditions. I still try to keep fat low in his diet.

I have tried fortiflora before but this time I bought these mercola ones but still too worried to try them because of the caution on Tayna's site
http://probiotics.mercola.com/probiotics-for-pets.html

Caution
One study into humans with severe acute pancreatitis, Probiotic prophylaxis in predicted severe acute pancreatitis: a randomised double-blind placebo-controlled trial(2008) Besselink MGH, van Santvoort HC, Buskens E, Boermeester MA, van Goor H, Timmerman HM, Nieuwenhuijs VB, Bollen TL, van Ramshorst B, Witteman BJM, Rosman C, Ploeg RJ, Brink MA, Schaapherder AFM, Dejong CHC, Wahab PJ, van Laarhoven CJHM, van der Harst E, van Eijck CHJ, Cuesta MA, Akkermans LMA, Gooszen HG The Lancet 371(9613) pp651 - 659, found that using probiotics more than doubled the risk of death. The same may not apply to cats but I would not take the risk. If you are using probiotics, therefore, I would speak urgently to your vet about stopping them.
http://www.felinecrf.org/pancreatitis.htm

Aine -sorry to hear about Saoirse. If she is like remi there is no apparent rhyme or reason for these periods of good and bad health and the test results don't seem to correspond to what you are seeing in front of you. I will definitely keep an eye on his glucose levels.
 
Hi Elizabeth

It's grains and some protein that he seems to have issues with but realistically I have no real idea about milk proteins. I don't think so, certainly he seemed fine on this before but maybe it did add to his inflammation. Hoping that today I might be the last day I need it but I agree it is a great product for a sick cat.
 
Hi Sarah,

Very relieved to hear that you managed to get some food into Remi.

Re probiotics, Fortiflora provoked very strong nausea reactions in Saoirse. I am giving her a little pumpkin in her food at the moment to settle her tum (acts as a prebiotic). So far she has tolerated it OK and it has no impact on her BG numbers.

FWIW, Liquivite food has some whey protein in it and Saoirse tolerates that food fairly well (I think its liver content makes her queasy at times, though). I did read somewhere that whey protein can assist BG regulation in humans.

How are you and Remi doing this evening? You're both very much in my thoughts.

(((Sarah and Remi)))
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Thanks Bron. I am hoping that things will settle down soon.

I have monitored remi's glucose on and off throughout the day and so far

AMBG 4.8 /86
One hour after feeding the second 10ml of royal canin convalescence support it was 6.2./111
PMBG 4.7 /85

He ate a small amount of his thrive food first thing this morning and then I decided to give him 10ml of his royal canin and then an hour later another 10ml with 1/4 ml of kaminox in it. About an hour after that he ate a whole 18 g of his normal food and again about an hour later he ate about another 10g of his normal food.

I do think the kaminox reawakens his appetite but have also noticed his tummy might be a tiny bit more gassy again but as he also stopped his antibiotic yesterday that could also be the reason. I just hope that the tumil k arrives tomorrow and we start to get some test results back. My vet did mention that if we rule out pathogens, IBD /sibo then we will have to consider things like lymphoma.

I will try to get him to eat his normal food in a bit and if not go for the liquid food again.
 
Hi Aine

Yes remi did eat about half his normal amount of food this am but I supplemented it with the convalescence food.

I have broken my number one rule though and that is to change more than one thing at a time. Yesterday I stopped his antibiotic, I started on the royal canin and today introduced the kaminox back. My concern is that I won't know what to blame if things get worse or what to continue if things improve. As I said a minute ago I think that today is tummy is a little more uncomfortable for him again today but now I don't know if it's the lack of metrozidonale or stating the kaminox. :eek:. This frustrates me greatly.
 
I'm having to break the one-thing-at-a-time rule here too, Sarah. I'm relying on Saoirse's journals for things I know have worked in the past to try to weigh up which treatment is affecting what as best I can. I understand and empathize greatly with your frustration, but fingers crossed Remi's clinical signs may be able to guide you as to how his different treatments are benefitting him. I really and truly hope he feels much better very soon.

(((Sarah and Remi)))

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phlika29 said:
My vet did mention that if we rule out pathogens, IBD /sibo then we will have to consider things like lymphoma.
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Sarah, the key word there is 'if'.
Maybe there is a simple explanation for what's going on: Don't lose sight of that possibility.
And 'if' it does turn out to be something more (ie lymphoma), then you will find a way to deal with it.
Just take it one day at a time, sweetie.

Keeping everything crossed here for Remi's recovery.

Hugs,

Eliz
 
Sarah,

When Saoirse had her scan last week, nothing showed up on the ultrasound scan to indicate IBD but the specialist strongly suspects that low-grade IBD is present but that a firm diagnosis could only be made with a biopsy and both of us considered such a procedure to be too invasive. Maybe talk with your vet about "as if" treatment for Remi?
 
Thanks you guys. It's the lack of eating that I find the hardest to deal with. Everything else I can do, pill, puff and inject. But trying to a cat to eat when they don't want to is the hardest and most frustrating thing!

I am really bad at keeping a journal and I know I should. I did with the blood glucose but that fell away after I stopped having to give insulin. It is my new resolution and you are so right Aine what has worked before may work again, if only I could remember what that was. :nailbiting:
 
phlika29 said:
Thanks you guys. It's the lack of eating that I find the hardest to deal with.
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Same here. I can feel my insides shrivelling whenever Saoirse has food/eating difficulties. :( :( :(
I am really bad at keeping a journal and I know I should. I did with the blood glucose but that fell away after I stopped having to give insulin. It is my new resolution and you are so right Aine what has worked before may work again, if only I could remember what that was. :nailbiting:
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I use a modified version of the BG spreadsheet to keep Saoirse's journal. Maybe you could do similar, Sarah? I find it very helpful to just update the remarks throughout the day as I go along. (I don't really have much choice with the PTSD memory problems. If I don't record stuff pretty much immediately the information is lost because my mind can't store it any more). I can't recommend having the information there to refer back to highly enough.

I hope you manage to get some rest tonight and that Remi's appetite will be better tomorrow.

:bighug:
 
Hi Aine -I always struggled with the spreadsheet especially when using it on the iPad. It just didn't work right but thinking about it now that I don't have to input all those values maybe just using the comment box would be okay.

Hi Elizabeth-quite possibly, I will have a look back through my threads.

As an update the vet emailed me late tonight and said that the faecal sample was negative for parasites (still waiting on the micro side ) but his blood is LOW for phosphate. Apparently it is 0.82 (uk) when if you look at Tayna's website it is usually 0.90 or higher in a cat over 12.

So I am not sure how to proceed. My vet is on a weeks leave after tomorrow night and it's Easter weekend so if someone could tell me what I should be asking for that would be great. Supplements? If so from the vets? Change of food? He is on thrive food which seems fairly low in potassium and I think the vet thinks that maybe dietary deficiency. So would changing to say the ropocat sensitive rabbit maybe help or is a fish based food a better way to go.

I am wondering if his IBD prevents him absorbing the right amount. My other thought was whether the iron in the kaminox is preventing absorption??

Any thoughts / advice gratefully received.

PS as soon as he started the insulin his energy levels went through the floor and have never really fully recovered even with potassium supplement
 
I'm sorry, I've got nothing to offer on low phosphorus (and struggling to even spell it today I'm so tired)!! We're more used to dealing with having to keep phos levels in food low for Shadow. Just dropping by to say I hope you and your vet can find an answer, whether it's a supplement or a change of diet, and that Remi starts to feel better soon. :bighug:
 
Pancreatitis can cause damage to the enzyme-producing cells, sometimes permanently. How do the feces look? If they are any of these characteristics - pale, soft-ish, really stinky, larger than normal - talk to your vet about testing for exocrine pancreatic insufficiency (a fasting test) and the use of supplemental digestive enzymes.
 
His faeces are soft at the moment but not pale, more of an orange colour-the same sort of colour as the kaminox. They do stink though. He has just finished a course of antibiotics and so the size has changed recently from small and hard to more normal to soft. I will add it to the list to discuss with my vet.

Thanks you two.
 
Morning Sarah,

Was just looking online for sources of potassium, and some of those look like things you may be able to include in Remi's diet: Winter squash is a good source of potassium, also plain yogurt, and milk (goat's milk has more potassium and is better tolerated by cats).
Other possible foods are red meats, chicken and turkey (those two surprised me!), and meaty fish such as salmon, tuna etc.

Will have a look to see if there's a novel protein food cat food with lower fat (I think the Ropocat foods are all quite high in fat, but maybe the Mac's Mono foods are lower...)

Eliz
 
phlika29 said:
Did I work this out right?
http://www.happykittycompany.co.uk/collections/ropocat/products/ropocat-sensitive-gold-rabbit-200g
Protein % 37
Fat 48% of calories
Carbs 9%
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Those numbers look like the calories from protein, fat and carbs per 100g of food.
To get the percentage of calories you divide those figures by the total calories per 100g, and then multiply by 100.
On my calculation it comes out as:
40.1% calories from protein,
50.5% calories from fat,
9.4% calories from carbs.
Total calories per 100g, 92.6

(Note: I think the Sheyderweb calculator uses a multiplier of 8.7 for fat instead of the usual 8.5)

And in fact, the Granatapet Symphonie chicken food that I linked to above has an almost identical percentage of calories from fat despite that fact that an initial reading of the food label would suggest otherwise. But it has a lower carb and calorie content than the Ropocat.
45.1% calories from protein,
50.4% calories from fat,
4.5% calories from carbs
Total calories per 100g, 77.6

I'm wondering if it's possible that there are some complementary/supplementary (ie incomplete!) cat foods that could be useful temporarily, in that they tend to have low fat content (if keeping the fat content low is a prime concern)...
.
 
Thanks Elizabeth for going to all that trouble. The information is fantastic.

The foods are just so confusing. I really thought that the ropocat would be the way to go when you just look at the headline protein levels, etc but when you work it put it is quite a high fat level. My vet thinks I should try the thrive ocean fish food but I know fish isn't meant to be the best thing to give exclusively but can't quite remember why. Is it because it has a higher phosphorus level in which case that might actually be good for remi.

I actually have the grantapet chicken food but again the fat level worried me and so it has just sat there.

That's great info about the various foods. I have just plucked up the courage to give remi a little of the mercola probiotic this morning so if that's alright maybe I could give him some plain live yoghurt as well? Funnily enough about five minutes after eating the food /probiotic he ran up the stairs as if he was kitten again! He confounds me every day.

So I am wondering if the low levels of phosphorus are down to the Zantac blocking the uptake slightly, his IBD influencing take up and the cisapride pushing the food through his system more quickly than normal.

Am still waiting for the tumil k but hopefully that will arrive today.
 
phlika29 said:
My vet thinks I should try the thrive ocean fish food but I know fish isn't meant to be the best thing to give exclusively but can't quite remember why.
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I was looking into the pros and cons of fishy foods recently (for my extremely picky CKD foster kitty...) and found this info on the CRF website.
http://www.felinecrf.org/which_foods.htm#fish
From what I've gleaned, problems can arise if kitties are fed a lot of fish, but having fish occasionally (or indeed during times of illness or inappetence) isn't so problematic.

The info you found out about the Thrive foods the other day showed that most of them have relatively low phosphorous content. And, on the basis of that info I'm now giving a little of the 'tuna' and the 'salmon & tuna' versions to my CKD foster, Elliot (as a topping on other foods, to encourage him to eat), so thanks for that info, Sarah!
But the 'ocean fish' version is higher in phosphorous and potassium (I see that the main ingredient is mackerel, which I did find listed elsewhere as a good source of potassium). It looks like it could be good choice for your boy. :) Does he like fish....? :nailbiting:
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Oh I think he loves fish but hasn't had it for many years. The thing is he would have to be on it exclusively at least for a couple weeks to see if it helped his IBD. From what I have read for IBD it is better to feed different proteins in rotation so one type for a couple of months and then move on to something else.

Will check out the link.
 
phlika29 said:
Okay I am not sure about what is the best food to change to. I was thinking about ropocat sensitive gold but I just tried to work out the % calories from carbs, and the fat level is pretty high.

Did I work this out right?
http://www.happykittycompany.co.uk/collections/ropocat/products/ropocat-sensitive-gold-rabbit-200g
Protein % 37
Fat 48% of calories
Carbs 9%
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Those are not the values you need, Sarah. If you had 100g of food then the figures above would be the number of calories within that 100g that come from each nutrient. If you add up the figures you listed, the total is 94, so 100g of food would provide a cat with 94 kilocalories of energy.

To determine carbohydrate level suitability for an FD cat, you need to take the number of actual kilocalories coming from carbs, divide that by the total number of kilocalories the food contains and multiply that by 100.

% kilocalories from carbohydrates = (no. of kilocalories provided by carbohydrates / total kilocalories) x 100.

For fat suitability, I don't know whether you need % of kilocalories from fat or Dry Matter Basis % of fat.

For the Ropocat Rabbit food:

Kilocalories per nutrient in 100g of food (helps you work out how much to feed):

Protein: 36.10%
Fat: 46.75%
Carbs: 8.75%

Percentage of Kilocalories per nutrient (to determine diabetic suitability):

Protein: 40.1%
Fat: 50.5%
Carbs: 9.4% <<<<< This is used to determine diabetic suitability.

Dry Matter Values (used to make direct comparisons between foods:

Protein: 50.5% <<<<< High protein content.
Fat: 26.2% <<<<< <<< Moderate fat content.
Carbs: 11.9% <<<<<<< Moderate carb content.

(Sorry for overlap with earlier posts but I wanted to put all of the numbers side-by-side so that you could see how they vary and what they can tell you.)

Is it definitely the percentage of calories from fats and not dry matter fat percentage that you need in order to pick foods suitable for Remi? If it is the dry matter fat percentage that you need to consider, it might give you more food choices for him.

Using @Elizabeth and Bertie UK food chart is there a novel protein food that is grain free and say less than 40 or 35% fat?
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It's situations exactly like this I was thinking of when proposing that the food charts should contain more than just 'calories from carbs' information because it would be of so much value to caregivers of cats who have GI or other issues comorbid with FD.
 
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You can add 1 ounce of plain lean meat/poultry to every 5 of cat food to improve the protein content, and proportionately reduce the fat and carbohydrate content. Mix well, and portion out. (per Cat Info).
 
Critter Mom said:
It's situations exactly like this I was thinking of when proposing that the food charts should contain more than just 'calories from carbs' information because it would be of so much value to caregivers of cats who have GI or other issues comorbid with FD.
Click to expand...
The current draft does contain more than the 'calories from carbs' info.
It contains the calories per 100g, and the phosphorous content (dry matter) where that data is available.
It also contains all the 'typical analysis' data from the label to enable people to do further calculations to suit their own purposes if they wish.
 
Thanks everyone for your replies. I had used to extra info on the chart to work out the %of calories from carbs but had not realised about that extra step. It would be useful to perhaps have a link to the calculator on the chart so people can work out what they want from the raw data.

The diet thing is just too stressful to deal with at the moment. From my reading it seems I need to try rabbit for a while to see if that helps but I need to find one that isn't too high in fat. Will work through the UK list to see if any others are lower %of fat from carbs.

In the meantime I have started him on the probiotic and I feel that it has helped a little so far but too early to tell. The tumil k came and I put a tiny amount in his food last night and he refused to have it so now I am wondering if I should have gone with the tablets as I can pill him easily enough. Does anyone know how big the tablets are? Remi's food doesn't have much smell and I think that the tumil k really changes how it smells and tastes.
 
phlika29 said:
From my reading it seems I need to try rabbit
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Sarah, just a thought but have you considered raw rabbit?

Until quite recently I was feeding raw rabbit to my lot as part of their food rotation. But unfortunately, the company that supplied it closed down. I just found this one though:
http://www.purrform.co.uk/farmed-rabbit-with-ground-bone
The postage looks pretty steep generally, but they do a 'trial pack'.

Rabbit is usually a lean meat and seems to be generally well tolerated by kitties with sensitive tums.
.
 
Elizabeth -That looks like a really great food. My only hesitation is that remi has tried a little raw a few years ago and refused to eat it and I remember that there is a query about raw food and pancreatitis. Will look into it again though.

That's what I thought, rabbit is low in fat. This is why I don't understand how the canned foods can end up being such a high percentage of fat. Maybe I am not really understanding it right??o_O:eek:
 
Sarah,

The muscle meat is low in fat. However, the foods will also contain body fat. The fat content of the final canned food will depend on the proportions of the ingredients the manufacturer uses in the recipe.

Because fat is the most energy-dense nutrient, it will have a high value. What do the Yahoo group advise to use for comparison purposes: dry matter fat % or kilocalories from fat %?

How are you and Remi doing today? You're both very much in my thoughts. :bighug:
 
Elizabeth and Bertie said:
The current draft does contain more than the 'calories from carbs' info.
It contains the calories per 100g, and the phosphorous content (dry matter) where that data is available.
It also contains all the 'typical analysis' data from the label to enable people to do further calculations to suit their own purposes if they wish.
Click to expand...

That assumes that any list user seeking further information knows how to do the calculations and is comfortable with doing so.
 
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Critter Mom said:
That assumes that any list user seeking further information knows how to do the calculations and is comfortable with doing so.
Click to expand...
It doesn't assume anything, Aine. It's just data that may prove useful.

Perhaps you could help people by setting up some 'live' calculation sheets for people to use, along with information about how to do the calculations? (This kind of thing has proved helpful in the past).
Something to discuss on another thread perhaps. ;)
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Remi is doing okay. I am obsessing as per usual:bookworm::nailbiting:

Remi is eating about 3/4 of the normal amount of food but still seems very lethargic and a little weak. I tried the tumil k last night but he wouldnt have any of it so not quite sure how to get it into him. He can also taste/smell the probiotics so I have to be careful there as well.

On that note can I check that the probiotic I am using has no hidden sugars- it has silica and microcrystalline cellulose. Is that alright?
http://probiotics.mercola.com/probiotics-for-pets.html

I am going to make a bone broth tonight or tomorrow morning. Unless anyone has specific suggestions I am just going to add the bones and meat to water and boil for a few hours (without the skin on it). I read that it is meant to be very healing for the gut. @Bron and Sheba I know you have been making up a broth for a while now.
 
Elizabeth and Bertie said:
Perhaps you could help people by setting up some 'live' calculation sheets for people to use, along with information about how to do the calculations? (This kind of thing has proved helpful in the past). Something to discuss on another thread perhaps. ;)
Click to expand...

I already withdrew from the food chart project for reasons already stated on another thread.

Getting back on topic, I'm very glad to hear that Remi is eating for you, Sarah. Can't help with the probiotic stuff, but I've also read that the broth you describe can help the digestive tract (on an antipodean site IIRC). It might be better to simmer the broth rather than boiling it so as to preserve the nutrients a bit better. I hope Bron will be able to tell you more.
 
Sarah, I was just following up to see how Remi was doing- it sounds like he is at least eating a little better. I read your last comments on probiotics and the relationship to pancreatitis, so I have my fingers crossed for Remi. (as I said before, Tiger has had no adverse effects and she has chronic pancreatitis as well.) I am not familiar with the probiotics that you are using, Marje and Gracie uses Renew Ultimate flora, pretty sure they are sugar free. Have you tried Gelcaps for pills such as the protiotic and Tumil K? Lots of us use them for especially bitter pills, you can chase it with a spoonful of baby food or another food that Remi likes. Continuing healing vines for Remi.:bighug:
 
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