Reintroduction

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Munchkin's Reagan

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Hello Everyone,
I had joined FDMB a year ago when our cat, Munchkin was dx originally. Through a big move and hectic schedules I didn't get to come around often and Munchkin actually went into remission. We almost made it a year since dx, 5 days off, but she ended up at the vet for blood in her stools, where we discovered colitis and her diabetes is back. (Apparently I've been relying on a meter/test strips that weren't giving me anywhere near accurate numbers. Her last visit to the had been about 4 months prior for a diabetes check.)
Anyway, I realize I've forgotten most of what I needed to know, so I thought it best to come back and re-educate myself. I've restarted her spreadsheet, (hid last year because it really wasn't kept well) we've been doing a full curve today, which is also her first day back on Lantus, 1 unit. She's feed twice a day 9am/9pm, but I'm wondering if she needs more food? She is getting 1 t of Dry DM with 1/2 can wet at every meal (Friskies Pate or Best Feline Friend)- I am going to completely remove the DM, but after we get a good idea of how the insulin is working. I apologize if I'm a little long winded, or unclear, I'm still trying to readjust to everything.
Here's the link to her SS, until I can remember how to add it to a signature.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... y=CPCk1vEF

(I was previously PebsNMunchsReagan, but I apparently used a different email that I can't remember for the life of me!)
 
Hi, sorry you had to come back, but happy you did.

On the food question, it depends on how much she weighs and how much her "ideal body weight" would be. That would determine how many calories she needs.

One thing I have read a lot is that multiple small meals throughout the day work better than just two feedings, and it seems more important with Lantus. I've seen where people portion the food in order to influence the curves, but I'll leave that to Lantus experienced folk to explain that better. My cat was on PZI, and I used to feed him 4 times a day. Once at each shot, and then half as much between +4 and +6 or so, day and night. That worked out well for Bob.

Carl
 
It looks like Munchkin went into remission last year shortly after her dx and change in diet. Was she eating dry food while in remission? You have to be careful removing dry food after starting insulin. Especially since Munchkin was going too low last time around after you changed her food. Deb

Here's a quote from your last post in 2011:

PebsNMunchsReagan said:
During the next few days Munchkin had 3 more hypo episodes before it was decided that we should test run taking her off the insulin. 18 days later, with consistent readings (once I got back home) daily between 55-90 the vet decided her diabetes is in remission, the food change seems to have been enough for her. It's been 9 more days since and she is still doing well.
 
Good Morning Carl and Deb,
Hope your having good days so far!
Munchkin has been on the 1 t dry DM (twice a day) since she went into remission. Since I started insulin already, what would you do in regards to the dry food? I was planning to wait and see how she was adjusting to being on insulin again and make it a slow ween off, which is what we did last year from a completely dry diet, but definitely want to hear what others suggest.
She currently weighs 12.1 (Down from 13.6 4 months ago) I don't ever recall discussing what her ideal weight should be. She's a pretty mellow, sedate cat (Compared to our civie, Pebbles). If I had to take a purely uneducated guess, based on her current body shape I'd say 8-9 lbs would be ideal.
Last year I got very stressed/obsessed when she was dx. Dear Mom-Chill Out was exactly me. I'm determined to make this round, however short or long, much less stressful for everyone. On a normal day how many readings are best again?
Thanks for any and all the information!
 
TRPM2007 said:
Good Morning Carl and Deb,
Hope your having good days so far!
Munchkin has been on the 1 t dry DM (twice a day) since she went into remission. Since I started insulin already, what would you do in regards to the dry food? I was planning to wait and see how she was adjusting to being on insulin again and make it a slow ween off, which is what we did last year from a completely dry diet, but definitely want to hear what others suggest.

I know that anytime Sneakers gets into the dry- even just a little bit, her numbers go up. She will always be a canned cat kitty from now on. I learned early on that dry food is KCC (kitty crack contraband). Sneakers also tends to be carb sensitive- going from 2% carb to 3% carb in FF really spikes her levels.

Me, personally, I would start testing her and get her nadirs in if possible for 3 days, then start to remove the dry. Does the t stand for teaspoon or tablespoon? She is already used to canned, so getting rid of it might be easier this time around. Continue to test and make sure she doesn't suddenly drop to a hypo number because of no kcc.
 
I do have a concern that the increased protein will agitate the colitis more, but now I at least have the questions I need answers too.
 
hmjohnston said:
Me, personally, I would start testing her and get her nadirs in if possible for 3 days, then start to remove the dry. Does the t stand for teaspoon or tablespoon? She is already used to canned, so getting rid of it might be easier this time around. Continue to test and make sure she doesn't suddenly drop to a hypo number because of no kcc.

t is for teaspoon, sorry. I want to make sure I'm understanding Nadir correctly. Does it mean generally the lowest point (so going off yesterday's number +4,+5, +6) or do I have that backwards?
 
Nadir is the lowest point in a 12-hour cycle...so yesterday's nadir is her 217 @ +5. However, you'll need more data to find out if she typically nadirs at +5.
 
Hi again,

The formula I normally share with people on calorie intake is a simple one. 20-30 calories per pound of ideal body weight, per day in order to maintain that weight. That's for a healthy cat, and a diabetic tends to need more per day because they don't metabolize their food efficiently. An active cat would require more, a sloth like my cat Bob requires less. :smile:

I would not worry at this point about her eating too much, and you can attempt to take off a pound or two later, after her numbers are more regulated. I would think that for her, 250 calories a day would be a good starting point. On Binky's food charts, the calories per can number is listed.
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html It may also be listed on the cans, but not sure. A "ballpark" figure for your average can of Friskees Pates is 175 calories per can and it looks like the seafood flavors tend to be a bit less than that. I am not familiar with the BFF brand. So especially when you remove the dry, she'll need maybe another half can of food per day? You could feed that in 1/4 can servings if you wanted to, sometime during the first half of her 12 hour cycles. The only time we usually advise not feeding is in the two or three hours prior to her AMPS and PMPS, so that food isn't a part of the BG number that you get at shot time.

Carl
 
I never bothered to calculate any sort of calories or any of that stuff for my cats because how can you know what their body is doing with what you are feeding? You can't, so all the fancy numbers go out the window.

Oliver once ate around 30oz/day, and now, of his own choosing, eats barely 6oz/day, and he weighs around 23.6lb, down from 33.8lb. Oliver has NEVER been one to eat fast, gulp food, or even eat lots in one sitting.... he's always been a plodder with his nibbling all through the day and nite.
If he is full, he turns his head to the side when a bowl is put in front of him, so my calculating what he needs would be a waste of time. And who knows what his ideal weight is... he is a huge cat!

Shadoe was eating around 24oz/day when first dx and dropped down to maybe 8 or 10oz. Again, by her own choice.

Many diabetic cats have lost a great deal of weight prior to their dx and possibly need to gain a few ounces back on. Then factor in the body being incapable of extracting what nutrients it needs from the food, and you may well be wise to feed some extra until you have your cat regulated. Before regulation, most cats eat much more than usual, so if your cat is asking for a bit more, give it to her.

The dry food? Scrap it and never go back to it. Many cats are DIET CONTROLLED, so by feeding wet, low carb and having the cat go off insulin, then to return to dry food is like inviting diabetes back.
Dump the dry and you may not need the insulin.
 
If you are seeing elevated numbers at the nadir, before changing the insulin dose, phase out any dry food.

Try dropping it to 1/2 teaspoon on a day you can monitor around the nadir - like this weekend, maybe.
 
Thanks for the input and pointers everyone. Carl I greatly appreciate a place to start off at. I am going to ad in small portions midday. I know she needs extra while getting regulated and she'll let me know if its more than enough. I feel it's just like humans. Some of us just eat too much, for varying reasons, I don't see how a domestic animal can be much different. My body certainly doesn't NEED the extra calories, but I sure like to eat them most days.. :razz:

My plan is to watch her numbers, give her 8 cycles (4 days) with insulin (She's only on day two, it takes a few days to build her shed), and then I'll start with decreasing the dry and watch her diabetes and colitis.


Gayle Shadoe & Oliver said:
The dry food? Scrap it and never go back to it. Many cats are DIET CONTROLLED, so by feeding wet, low carb and having the cat go off insulin, then to return to dry food is like inviting diabetes back.

Just to clarify, she was never fully off the dry. She was on the 1 teaspoon when she went into remission.
 
if she's on only a bit of dry, toss it. To pull back to 1/2 teaspoon a day is silly.... how do you measure a 1/2 tesaspoon of dry food? What's that? Maybe 1 piece of dry food? Surely 1 teaspoon of dry food can be removed ... did you mean maybe 1cup? I am picturing the size of 1 tablespoon and it could hold maybe 7 pieces of dry, heaping.
if your cat is eating mostly wet, that's all that's needed.

if you are leaving dry for in between feedings, leave wet instead.

cats who are eating mostly dry, or exclusively dry, would possibly need to be tapered off, but if the bulk of a diet is wet, you will have no problem, especially if you are watching closely.
 
Post removed by Webmaster. Please do not conduct personal disagreements on the FDMB.
 
This is just one situation we have to do our way. I can't be with her all weekend, but I can be with her day and night all next week. Ending up in the ER Vet 5 times last year due to hypos makes me take any medication/food change with caution. I understand you think it's a silly plan. I do plan to take the dry away, no questions asked. I just need to wait until Monday.
 
We don't know how you're measuring your teaspoon of DM dry...but I will say this as a FYI to others…a teaspoon of DM dry is more like 30 to 40 pieces...depending on whether it's "heaping" or not. I know this because I just measured it and counted the pieces. DM dry is very tiny, and dense. It's still a small amount of food (it weighs about 3 grams)...but there's nothing wrong with cutting her portion in half when you're able to stick around and monitor to see what that does to her numbers.

Also, I don't know what time you shoot...but you have no PM data yet. If your PM cycle is your "overnight" cycle, kitties tend to go lower at night. So remember not to start cutting back on her dry during a nighttime cycle. Okay? Better safe than sorry...but the choice is always up to you...she's your kitty.

Don't get stressed out over this...take it one-step at a time. I know that's easier said than done when this type of "debate" starts, but remember, you promised yourself not to get too stressed-out this time around...so stick to your guns...oh, and make yourself a drink. If you don't drink...I'll have one for you. ;-)
 
Barn Cats R Us said:
We don't know how you're measuring your teaspoon of DM dry...but I will say this as a FYI to others…a teaspoon of DM dry is more like 30 to 40 pieces...depending on whether it's "heaping" or not. I know this because I just measured it and counted the pieces. DM dry is very tiny, and dense. It's still a small amount of food (it weighs about 3 grams)...but there's nothing wrong with cutting her portion in half when you're able to stick around and monitor to see what that does to her numbers.

Also, I don't know what time you shoot...but you have no PM data yet. If your PM cycle is your "overnight" cycle, kitties tend to go lower at night. So remember not to start cutting back on her dry during a nighttime cycle. Okay? Better safe than sorry...but the choice is always up to you...she's your kitty.

Don't get stressed out over this...take it one-step at a time. I know that's easier said than done when this type of "debate" starts, but remember, you promised yourself not to get too stressed out this time around...so stick to your guns...oh, and make yourself a drink. ;-)

This made me laugh so hard I cried. Because I did go up and count how many pieces were in a teaspoon (Yes I use an actual teaspoon every time) hours ago, but I thought I shouldn't, especially being new, come back with a uber defensive there's 33ish pieces!!!!

There's no PM data for today because we're on a 9:30 am/9:30 pm CST cycle. So we're still 3 hours from her next shot. I plan to get a few readings tonight. Thank you so much for the reminder not to start at night.

And as for the drink, I probably should have had that 3 hours ago. hah. My husband won't be home for another 2.5 hours, but I think a beer on the porch is in order when he gets here (maybe before)! Thanks again for the help and support!
 
Oh good. I'm glad you have beer. I just looked high and low...strictly to live up to my word of course...and my house is dry as a bone. I'll guess you'll have to drink an extra for me. Please let me know if it calmed me down. :-D

Oh, I just saw your post...yes, I love them...and thank you for cyber sharing. drinking09
 
she ended up at the vet for blood in her stools, where we discovered colitis and her diabetes is back

I don't think that this has been mentioned much yet, but about the colitis... did the vet rule out internal parasites? Is this a chronic or an acute thing?
And just to make sure, it wasn't caused by a diet change? I mean she was eating dry and canned the whole time, right?
Carl
 
Good Morning. I hope I didn't drink too much last night...and end up sleeping on your couch. @-)

I just wanted to clarify the feeding issue. I agree that you shouldn't worry about Munchkin losing weight right now (by the way, I had a male cat named Munchkin!). I say this without knowing if Munchkin is obese...but I've had a few dozen cats...and 8 lbs. is a pretty small kitty. To try to drop her down to that weight from 12.1, probably isn't feasible right now. Unless you had her on a diet, I'm guessing she dropped from the 13.6, to the 12.1, due to her going out of remission. I think your main concern right now is to "feed the insulin curve".

There are some great folks over in the Lantus forums that can better help you with this. An additional forum was added since you were last here, so you will have a choice between TR (tight regulation), and the “Relaxed Lantus” forum (if you aren’t able to follow TR Protocol). I'm sure some of those folks will be along soon, and you can decide if you're ready to...or if you want to..."move over" to a Lantus forum.

I fought like the dickens to keep my FD (feline diabetic) Marilyn on a 12/12 feeding schedule...a half can of Friskies Pate twice a day. Ultimately, however, I had no choice but to "feed the insulin curve", and wave the white flag. Currently, she eats no more than 1/4 can of Friskies Pate at each feeding, and she is trying her best to lean towards remission. Marilyn is no Munchkin though...she's been a very difficult FD kitty. Also, she weighs 10.6 lbs, and eats about 1.25, 5.5 oz, cans per day. The main thing you have to remember (in case you forgot!) is that "ECID" (every cat is different)...and you'll be hearing that a lot.

The wonderful folks here can guide you through this "dance", however, you'll be following Munchkin’s lead, and your own gut instincts, in many cases. Nobody knows your kitty like you do. Here's hoping for a second, speedy, remission for both of you!

Deb
 
Good morning folks! Deb, our couches are very comfy, though they do come with cat fur of course! :)
We had a fun night of Munchkin (Munchasaurus is much more accurate) (Fabulous name btw!!) taking our status in the vampire club very seriously. She decided, because really, we all know who the bosses are in this house, that she wasn't giving any up with out getting a good portion of mine. So after two failed attempts I put some noe pain on her ears and my hands and we agreed to meet again this morning. She's still feisty though. Today is a busy day for us so I'll be in and out, grabbing some readings on the run. Maybe I should have RSVP'd with +1 for today. Maybe they wouldn't mind an extra guest?!?
I'm certainly not focused/concerned with her trying to lose weight. I only meant it as information to get to a starting point, so I could just get a better grasp on if she was being underfed, in general. So I appreciate all of the input. We're going to have to figure out a feeding solution because our civie is on different food (She's happy, healthy and 15.). While I can keep Munch out of Pebs food--only because Munchkin won't jump up to high surfaces--I haven't figured out how I will keep Pebs from eating hers if it's unattended.
Carl, in regards to the colitis, there are no parasites (two tests to confirm). Her Vet is leaning towards stress induced because of the diabetes returning, but we actually need to wait and see at the moment. Could possibly be food caused, even though nothing has changed, but its purely take one symptom at a time and figure it out from there situation. (There is a possibility it went misdiagnosed for a time, so we have to sort through that too).
Yesterday I spent a lot of the day reading stickies and other posts, just trying to remember most of the basics. I'll have to read the difference between the two lantus boards and then I'll head over to one tomorrow or Monday.
Thanks again for the info and support! I hope everyone has a happy, healthy day!
 
Hi again,

I just thought I'd give you an idea of what a 10.6 lb kitty eats (1.25 to 1.5 cans per day)...but at the same time, remind you that ECID.

You can purchase an automatic feeder for Munchkin...but I don't know if Pebs would just push Munchkin out of the way, and scoff up her food...or if Munchkin would hold her ground. The auto feeders don't have very large "bowl" openings for each individual timed meal...so I wouldn't think there's room for two heads...unless Munchkin willingly shares, and would just step out of Peb's way. If you think it might work, there are many folks here that can advise you on the best automatic feeder. I've never used one since I cage Marilyn for feedings.

Hope your having a nice weekend.
 
Hi everyone, hope you had a good weekend!

Thanks for the suggestion and sharing what works for you and your family. We'll find our groove :)

I'll have to go look into the auto feeders. It might work. I can see Pebs certainly scarfing it up once she discovers it, if Munch hasn't gotten to it first. But it's worth a shot! I suppose worst case, we just shut them off in separate parts of the house if we're gone. I just don't adore that solution--but I will get over that if need be..hah.

I took away the dry food today since I can keep an eye on her and started over on the lantus group. Hopefully that doesn't irritate her IBD (colitis) more. :)

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge!
 
Gayle Shadoe & Oliver said:
I never bothered to calculate any sort of calories or any of that stuff for my cats because how can you know what their body is doing with what you are feeding? You can't, so all the fancy numbers go out the window.

Oliver once ate around 30oz/day, and now, of his own choosing, eats barely 6oz/day, and he weighs around 23.6lb, down from 33.8lb. Oliver has NEVER been one to eat fast, gulp food, or even eat lots in one sitting.... he's always been a plodder with his nibbling all through the day and nite.
If he is full, he turns his head to the side when a bowl is put in front of him, so my calculating what he needs would be a waste of time. And who knows what his ideal weight is... he is a huge cat!

Shadoe was eating around 24oz/day when first dx and dropped down to maybe 8 or 10oz. Again, by her own choice.

Many diabetic cats have lost a great deal of weight prior to their dx and possibly need to gain a few ounces back on. Then factor in the body being incapable of extracting what nutrients it needs from the food, and you may well be wise to feed some extra until you have your cat regulated. Before regulation, most cats eat much more than usual, so if your cat is asking for a bit more, give it to her.

The dry food? Scrap it and never go back to it. Many cats are DIET CONTROLLED, so by feeding wet, low carb and having the cat go off insulin, then to return to dry food is like inviting diabetes back.
Dump the dry and you may not need the insulin.

just wanted to share a post from the past that sheds a whole lot of light on feeding diabetic kitties...

Feeding hungry..... unregulated cats
Posted by: Lisa dvm (IP Logged)
Date: April 11, 2009 02:42AM

Vic is right when she is discussing a happy medium.

From this link:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/phorum5/read.php?15,520791,532240

Please see this post:


why food should be somewhat controlled...
Posted by: Hilary & Zug(GA) (IP Logged)
Date: December 1, 2006 11:22PM


Here's a really good explanation of why NOT to overfeed/feed until "satisfied":

In general, brain cells do not need insulin to utilize glucose. A specific area of the brain, called the appetite center (in the hypothalamus), monitors the amount of glucose that circulates in the bloodstream. The lower the blood glucose level in the cells in the appetite center the greater the appetite. Unlike most of the brain cells, the ability of glucose to enter the cells of the appetite center is dependent upon insulin. In diabetes mellitus, with its lack of adequate insulin in the bloodstream, these appetite center cells don't monitor glucose levels properly, thinking the blood glucose is low. as a result, the pet develops polyphagia to correct for this perceived problem. The additional food that is then eaten further increases the blood glucose level.

from: http://lbah.com/feline/diabetes.htm#Pathophysiology

Basically, a cat that's unregulated can't really tell what's going on with its appetite, and the high BGs make the cat even hungrier. It's something of a balancing act -- you want to be sure you're feeding sufficient food that the cat is getting the nutrition it needs, especially to help reduce the risk of ketoacidosis, but you don't want to overfeed (which often happens when the cat is "hungry"). The poor cat doesn't know if it really needs food, it just knows that its brain is saying "need food now!".

Hilary

Me: Active (albeit intermittently) on FDMB since Dec 2002.
Zug (GA): B&W Japanese Bobtail, unknown age.
Diagnosed 12/18/02. Tightly regulated on PZI-VET for most of his fight with diabetes. Died of peritoneal carcinomatosis (a very invasive form of cancer) October 19, 2005, and sorely missed.

http://www.felinediabetes.com/phorum5/read.php?8,1613524,1613896,sv=1#msg-1613896



feeding diabetic cats "as much as they want" will often result in grossly overweight kitties. their caregivers end up having to put the cat on a "diet". ohmygod_smile

Dr. Lisa has put together some great info here: Feline Obesity: An Epidemic of Fat Cats. Definitely worth reading. :-D
 
Thank you Jill, those are some great links!

This part struck a chord - there have been a couple of PZI beans lately that mentioned that kitty acts starved even though the BGs are high....

Basically, a cat that's unregulated can't really tell what's going on with its appetite, and the high BGs make the cat even hungrier

Now I can point them to something that will help with understanding why.
I also couldn't help but notice "Vic's" signature, which is an awesome line...
Feline diabetes is a bump in the road, not the edge of a cliff.

Carl
 
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