Regs diabetes and me

[Britta and Regs]

Hey everyone, I thought I introduce us, my sugar kitty Regs and me, Britta, here really quick.

Regs was diagnosed in April after he lost a lot of weight. The vet put him on Vetsulin first and we couldn't get the sugar under control, it was always an up and down (and I mean each cycle going from 400 to 140 back to 450) and on top of that, Regs got a congestive heart failure in May and a hypo from the Vetsulin in the end of June. So I did a little research and I found out that Vetsulin/Caninsulin was really not the right insulin for him. I asked the vet if we could switch him to Lantus and we did 2 weeks ago. He is only getting vet food, a lot of it, mostly fancy feast pate or flaked tuna or chunked chicken but is there ant other food that would be good for a diabetic cat? Very cat like he does not touch any diabetes food

Now we do not have the ups and downs that bad anymore but we are fighting constantly high sugars. Interestingly his sugars during the cycle are higher than the pres, not sure what is going on there.
Regs takes it like a little kitty champ and he doesn't care if he das a 250 or 600 sugar but I really run out of patience and just want him to be better. Did anyone have a similar situation and could share their story , has a hint what we could do better or has some words of encouragement?

 

[tiffmaxee]

Hi. Welcome to the FDM. Your cat is smart to not want the diabetic food as its expensive and higher carbs. Fancy feast is fine. Have you had a chance to look at our dosing methods sticky? Sine you are feeding low carb wet food you could follow TR and increase every 3 days until you get to a good dose. Here’s the sticky.

Sticky - Dosing Methods: Start Low, Go Slow (SLGS) & Tight Regulation (TR)

 

[Connie & Parker & Moonie]

Welcome Brita and Regs! I love the comment that Regs is too smart for prescription food! He’s just trying to save his mama money.

A lot of people here feed FF classic pate with success. Here are two other food charts I’ve used. Anything under 10% carbs is considered LC.

https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf

https://www.bizave.com/foodlists/Main List.pdf

Welcome and you’ve definitely come to the right place. Everyone here is incredibly supportive and kind, and the experienced members offer invaluable advice. Before we joined FDMB, Moonie had never seen a number below 300, and now we’re largely only seeing numbers between 70-200. And she’s doing so much better too - much more energetic and playful and just herself - and it’s all thanks to being here

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Hello and welcome. Is Regs on any medications for his heart failure? Or any other meds? My Neko also had CHF.

How high a Vetsulin dose did he get to? Was 1.5 units his starting dose of Lantus? Are you using the U-100 syringes now? Sorry for the million questions.

 

[Britta and Regs]

Thanks you so

Hello and welcome. Is Regs on any medications for his heart failure? Or any other meds? My Neko also had CHF.

How high a Vetsulin dose did he get to? Was 1.5 units his starting dose of Lantus? Are you using the U-100 syringes now? Sorry for the million questions.

Thank you so much for your welcome!

Yes, Regs is on heart meds, he is getting furosemide to keep the fluids out and vetmedin to strengthen the heart itself. Poor guy hat a total of almost 5lbs fluids in his belly and chest when diagnosed.

When he was on Vetsulin he got 4 units for a bit over a month and suddenly he got a hypo so I reduced it to 3 units. But he was really spiking and dropping and that was as absolutely not good for his heart. I tossed all u40 syringes and got the u100 with half units, that makes dosing much easier

 

[Britta and Regs]

Hi. Welcome to the FDM. Your cat is smart to not want the diabetic food as its expensive and higher carbs. Fancy feast is fine. Have you had a chance to look at our dosing methods sticky? Sine you are feeding low carb wet food you could follow TR and increase every 3 days until you get to a good dose. Here’s the sticky.

Sticky - Dosing Methods: Start Low, Go Slow (SLGS) & Tight Regulation (TR)

Thank you so much for the welcome, I have not looked at the dosing methods but I will. The quick glance said that was from a German website so I can even look up the original website since I am German.
I really appreciate you pointing that out though, I would have needed forever to find it myself. But happily I can say Regs had a glucose of 214 this morning, now I’m more worried that the Lantus will be too strong

 

[Britta and Regs]

Welcome Brita and Regs! I love the comment that Regs is too smart for prescription food! He’s just trying to save his mama money.

A lot of people here feed FF classic pate with success. Here are two other food charts I’ve used. Anything under 10% carbs is considered LC.

https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf

https://www.bizave.com/foodlists/Main List.pdf

Welcome and you’ve definitely come to the right place. Everyone here is incredibly supportive and kind, and the experienced members offer invaluable advice. Before we joined FDMB, Moonie had never seen a number below 300, and now we’re largely only seeing numbers between 70-200. And she’s doing so much better too - much more energetic and playful and just herself - and it’s all thanks to being here

Thanks for your welcome Connie! Everybody seems so friendly and helpful, I’m so glad I found that group. When he got diagnosed back in April it felt so overwhelming and even if out vet is great she could just give a certain amount of advice.

I’m very glad he did not like the food, diabetic food is so expensive and why spending much more if he doesn’t like it. His non-diabetic brother loved it though

Thanks so much for the food charts, I think Regs get pretty bored with ff pate so I’m always looking for alternatives

So glad to hear you got Moonie stable with her sugars, I know we still have a long way but I hope we will get there one day. And I’m also happy to say that Regs had a glucose of 214 this morning, that is lower than forever as a pre. Since my brain is on Vetsulin mode I was very anxious giving him the Lantus

 

[Connie & Parker & Moonie]

Thanks for your welcome Connie! Everybody seems so friendly and helpful, I’m so glad I found that group. When he got diagnosed back in April it felt so overwhelming and even if out vet is great she could just give a certain amount of advice.

I’m very glad he did not like the food, diabetic food is so expensive and why spending much more if he doesn’t like it. His non-diabetic brother loved it though

Thanks so much for the food charts, I think Regs get pretty bored with ff pate so I’m always looking for alternatives

So glad to hear you got Moonie stable with her sugars, I know we still have a long way but I hope we will get there one day. And I’m also happy to say that Regs had a glucose of 214 this morning, that is lower than forever as a pre. Since my brain is on Vetsulin mode I was very anxious giving him the Lantus

Moonie likes some variety too so I’m glad you have some options. Plus you’ll eventually end up experimenting with different carb levels to figure out what feeding schedule works best for your kitty and how carb sensitive they are - so it’s good to have multiple options of LC, MC, and HC on hand.

That’s awesome! Congrats on your lowest preshot! Woohoo!

Soon I’m sure you’ll be eligible for the balls of steel award for shooting a green! I still remember how stressed out I was that day but I’m glad we got there and you will too

 

[Wendy&Neko]

When he was on Vetsulin he got 4 units for a bit over a month and suddenly he got a hypo so I reduced it to 3 units.

If he was on 3 units of Vetsulin, then he should have been started on 3 units of Lantus. So the numbers you are seeing now just mean it's not enough insulin.

Neko was on Vetmedin and Plavix, and a very low dose of Lasix for her second CHF. She also had kidney disease and Lasix impacts kidneys.

 

[Britta and Regs]

Moonie likes some variety too so I’m glad you have some options. Plus you’ll eventually end up experimenting with different carb levels to figure out what feeding schedule works best for your kitty and how carb sensitive they are - so it’s good to have multiple options of LC, MC, and HC on hand.

That’s awesome! Congrats on your lowest preshot! Woohoo!

Soon I’m sure you’ll be eligible for the balls of steel award for shooting a green! I still remember how stressed out I was that day but I’m glad we got there and you will too

Oh wow you two are so set up with different carb levels and so, that is awesome. Until I get Regs stable I will stay with low carb because I know last time he got dry food it was ugly.

Yesterday I was out during the day and was so nervous that he would go low, and when I came home he was at 347. No idea why he is always higher during the cycles, I would assume the Lantus would push the glucose down. I would already be happy with a blue value....

 

[Britta and Regs]

If he was on 3 units of Vetsulin, then he should have been started on 3 units of Lantus. So the numbers you are seeing now just mean it's not enough insulin.

Neko was on Vetmedin and Plavix, and a very low dose of Lasix for her second CHF. She also had kidney disease and Lasix impacts kidneys.

TBH I was very surprised that our vet wanted to start so low, so every Monday I text her and every Monday she replies that we should raise it 0.5 units. So hopefully tomorrow we can get up to 3 units. even with his pre values I don't know if she will allow it, she said even with Lantus no shot under 250 mg/dL. I just don't understand why his +6/7/8 are higher than the pres and wonder if the heart meds could play a role in this. Even that was different on Vetsulin.

I am super concerned about Regs kidneys, last time we checked they were perfect but I tried to reduce the lasix dose once and I had the feeling his RR went up after a couple days. They told me when he had CHF he might have 36 month and 2 are already over, so I'm happy for every day he is with us.

 

[Wendy&Neko]

FWIW, over time a lot of people here just start using the dosing methods we have here for Lantus. I got frustrated with having to wait for my vet's phone to get back to me in time for shot time. And she admitted she was more familiar with Caninsulin (which we started on), than Lantus. The locum vet who got me switched to Lantus told me to get my dosing help from FDMB. You might want to take a look at the Sticky Notes posted on the top of the Lantus forum.

she said even with Lantus no shot under 250 mg/dL. I just don't understand why his +6/7/8 are higher than the pres and wonder if the heart meds could play a role in this.

On this particular part of the forum, we use 200 for people who are new. Lantus is a much gentler insulin than Vetsulin, so you eventually (with data) can shoot numbers lower than that. Some cats have later nadirs, my Neko tended to be in the 7-9 hours after the shot, though occasionally as late as the following shot. It will also be easier to see his blood sugar patterns once they get into lower numbers overall. When they are mostly over 300, it's harder to figure out. The other thing you could be seeing is what we call a bounce:

Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast.The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". *Usually*, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles).

I'm glad to hear Reg's kidneys are fine, that will help you treat the heart. As Neko's IM vet said, the heart is more important than the kidneys.

 

[Connie & Parker & Moonie]

Oh wow you two are so set up with different carb levels and so, that is awesome. Until I get Regs stable I will stay with low carb because I know last time he got dry food it was ugly.

Yesterday I was out during the day and was so nervous that he would go low, and when I came home he was at 347. No idea why he is always higher during the cycles, I would assume the Lantus would push the glucose down. I would already be happy with a blue value....

I’m sure you’ll see one! Before I joined FDMB, Moonie had never seen a number below 300. And because Lantus is a longer acting depot insulin, it works over time as the depot builds and it’s not as good at dropping the blood glucose down immediately (which is a good thing for avoiding hypos I think!)

If you have time, I would suggest getting at least a couple cans of MC or HC options you know he’ll eat in addition to honey / karo. I personally use FF grilled in gravy (13-15 percent carbs) for MC and Wellness Signature Selects (25 percent plus) for HC. You never know if he’ll end up surprising you with a low number or big drop, especially late at night when many cats tend to have more active cycles, and you don’t want to be panicking without it in the moment. I was so grateful I didn’t throw out all of Moonie’s previous junky food when that happened to me for the first time. Honey and karo mixed in with LC work in a pinch, but they don’t last long.

 

[Britta and Regs]

I’m sure you’ll see one! Before I joined FDMB, Moonie had never seen a number below 300. And because Lantus is a longer acting depot insulin, it works over time as the depot builds and it’s not as good at dropping the blood glucose down immediately (which is a good thing for avoiding hypos I think!)

If you have time, I would suggest getting at least a couple cans of MC or HC options you know he’ll eat in addition to honey / karo. I personally use FF grilled in gravy (13-15 percent carbs) for MC and Wellness Signature Selects (25 percent plus) for HC. You never know if he’ll end up surprising you with a low number or big drop, especially late at night when many cats tend to have more active cycles, and you don’t want to be panicking without it in the moment. I was so grateful I didn’t throw out all of Moonie’s previous junky food when that happened to me for the first time. Honey and karo mixed in with LC work in a pinch, but they don’t last long.

You were so right, today around lunchtime he was at 143 and that was our first value in the 100th since he is on Lantus. But it didn't last long and he already went back up to over 300. But I see that as a good sign that the Lantus is working and maybe I only need a bit more patience.

Our storage room looks like a pet shop, we have a total of 5 cats, just Regs has the diabetes issue. So thankfully we always have a good variety, just need to do a little more research which ones are MC and HC.

I saw in your post that Moonie was vomiting this morning, I hope her stomach settled during the day!

 

[Britta and Regs]

FWIW, over time a lot of people here just start using the dosing methods we have here for Lantus. I got frustrated with having to wait for my vet's phone to get back to me in time for shot time. And she admitted she was more familiar with Caninsulin (which we started on), than Lantus. The locum vet who got me switched to Lantus told me to get my dosing help from FDMB. You might want to take a look at the Sticky Notes posted on the top of the Lantus forum.

On this particular part of the forum, we use 200 for people who are new. Lantus is a much gentler insulin than Vetsulin, so you eventually (with data) can shoot numbers lower than that. Some cats have later nadirs, my Neko tended to be in the 7-9 hours after the shot, though occasionally as late as the following shot. It will also be easier to see his blood sugar patterns once they get into lower numbers overall. When they are mostly over 300, it's harder to figure out. The other thing you could be seeing is what we call a bounce:


I'm glad to hear Reg's kidneys are fine, that will help you treat the heart. As Neko's IM vet said, the heart is more important than the kidneys.

Thakfully I have my vets cell phone no, even I don't think she appreciates my panic messages. Regs had an amazing mid day value of 143, so we must be close with the right dose. Unfortunately he is already back to over 300 what would match with the bounce you mentioned., I hope it doesn't last too long It was so awesome he was so happy and hungry when the glucose was low and the urine strip did not even show a trace of glucose.

I believe the 200 is a save value for him, under that I would not feel comfortable giving him a shot until I know better how his body is reacting, especially when I am at work all day.

I think heart and kidney are both important but I know what you mean, my old lady cat has bad kidneys for three years and she refuses any kind of kidney food.